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I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 6:27:43 PM   
BamaD


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There was a race war, when whites and blacks joined to virtually exterminate indians.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 7:08:25 PM   
Lucylastic


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your religion protects you, you will be fine.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 8:06:44 PM   
kdsub


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See what happens when there is no gun control.... guns against arrows... if our forefathers had gun control this thread would not be.

Butch

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 9:00:37 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

See what happens when there is no gun control.... guns against arrows... if our forefathers had gun control this thread would not be.

Butch

The army, which played a large part would have still had guns.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 6/29/2017 9:07:18 PM >


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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 9:03:32 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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We didn't need guns, we killed off far more native Americans with Smallpox and Diphtheria than we did with bullets. Part of the darker side of US history that is not usually found in your grade school history books.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 9:16:52 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

We didn't need guns, we killed off far more native Americans with Smallpox and Diphtheria than we did with bullets. Part of the darker side of US history that is not usually found in your grade school history books.

I am aware of that.
Don't forget the havoc the destruction of the buffalo.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 6/29/2017 9:43:55 PM >


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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 9:53:53 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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The buffalo near-extinction, though significant, was gun related in a sense though. The disease die off was both deliberate and rather puts the kibosh on the whole gun control issue since it was grand-scale genocide without the use of guns at all.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 9:59:34 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

The buffalo near-extinction, though significant, was gun related in a sense though. The disease die off was both deliberate and rather puts the kibosh on the whole gun control issue since it was grand-scale genocide without the use of guns at all.

The destuction of the buffalo was also a deliberate attempt to destroy the plains indian way of life.
But you are correct that more indians were killed with germ warfare than bullets..

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 10:19:39 PM   
Edwird


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You're actually doing good, here, Bama.

The smallpox blankets, decimating the buffalo herds, etc. it was done in different ways.

And I can tell you that I'm not going to stand here and listen to historically illiterate Europeans or whoever else telling us that we were (and still are!) the worst of it, when they themselves instigated every bit of it to start with by way of instilled mental/religious/philosophical derangement from the outset. We had much to overcome in that regard. Witch burning was passed on from the other continent.

But however much damage transplanted Europeans and Africans did later on (including unto each other) on the new continent, we at least did the world a favor in ridding ourselves from monarchical attachments in the process.

The British did the greatest favor to the Western world in ridding language of the idiotic notion of gendered nouns (and accompanying gendered articles, gendered adjectives, etc.), . . .

But for the final touch, leave it to the US legal system in losing the white wigs in court.



< Message edited by Edwird -- 6/29/2017 10:22:00 PM >

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 10:56:43 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

See what happens when there is no gun control.... guns against arrows... if our forefathers had gun control this thread would not be.

Butch


BTW - before you write off arrows against guns, better check with Gen. George Custer. In his experience guns don't always beat arrows.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 11:32:54 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

See what happens when there is no gun control.... guns against arrows... if our forefathers had gun control this thread would not be.

Butch


BTW - before you write off arrows against guns, better check with Gen. George Custer. In his experience guns don't always beat arrows.

However, we was out numbered at least 10-1 and some Indians had guns. Plus as arrogant as Custer was, he left 2 Gatling guns behind.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 11:35:29 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

See what happens when there is no gun control.... guns against arrows... if our forefathers had gun control this thread would not be.

Butch


BTW - before you write off arrows against guns, better check with Gen. George Custer. In his experience guns don't always beat arrows.

Sorry but a large % of the suix had henerys, at close range their superrior firepower gave them the advantage.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 11:43:51 PM   
Edwird


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I also think that Mt. Rushmore should be presented as Thomas Jefferson, Tecumseh (a truly great American hero), Martin Luther King, and Lincoln, but that's just me.

Tecumseh rendered his life unto purpose of freedom as none others did on this soil. He was a bit more intentional about it rather than blundering into it like Custer.

Read some books about it, Tecumseh was an amazing person.

And don't give me this crap about being opposing sides in that.

We fought Confederacy against Union, did we not?

We fought Colonists against Crown, did we not?

Colonists ("we," back then) invaded the continent, did they (we) not?

So now here we all are going to the grocery store, and buying cars, and phone plans. My how time flies.

Pocahontas and Sacagawea (interpreter, as essential element for the Lewis and Clark expedition) deserve to be in any 'American Hall of Fame' too.


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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/29/2017 11:46:43 PM   
Edwird


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~

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/30/2017 12:00:20 AM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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No question a lot of the Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe at Little Big Horn had repeating rifles, but I recall reading years ago, (don't ask me for a
citation, it was a long time ago) that roughly 2/3 of Custer's men were killed by arrows. Imagine if Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse and Chief Gall had
been able to equip their forces with modern type bows, they would not have needed guns at all.

< Message edited by HaveRopeWillBind -- 6/30/2017 12:01:16 AM >

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/30/2017 12:37:27 AM   
vincentML


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FR

FACING RACISM

Despite demonstrating loyalty to the U.S. government, the Buffalo Soldiers endured a great deal of racial discrimination while participating in the Indian Wars. Ironically, the white settlers that they were charged to protect were repeatedly hostile toward them. Their hatred of blacks often manifested itself in the form of violence. Events that occurred at San Angelo, a town adjacent to the Tenth Cavalry’s post at Fort Concho, Texas, serve as a prime example of the kind of hostility that the Buffalo Soldiers had to endure.

Cox notes in The Forgotten Heroes that San Angelo was home to many seedy cowboys, ex-Confederate soldiers, and pimps and prostitutes. Unfortunately, the disreputable inhabitants demonstrated their intolerance of blacks on several occasions. In one instance, Private Hiram Pinder of the Ninth Cavalry was shot and killed by a white gambler in a saloon. The townspeople helped the killer escape and he was never captured. Twelve days after Pinder’s death, Private William Watkins was singing and dancing for drinks in another saloon. He tired of performing and decided to quit for the evening, but a rancher named Tom McCarthy insisted that he continue. When Watkins refused, McCarthy shot and killed him. McCarthy then fled, but he was captured by soldiers who turned him over to the sheriff. Instead of jailing McCarthy, however, the sheriff allowed him to remain free because killing a black person was only considered a minor crime. When he was finally tried for the murder of Private Watkins, an all-white jury found him not guilty.

In addition to facing discrimination from civilians, the Buffalo Soldiers also encountered systemic prejudice within the military. For instance, black soldiers were always second to their white counterparts when equipment was distributed. White soldiers selected the most pristine weapons and best horses, leaving the Buffalo Soldiers with old rifles and worn-out mares. Furthermore, they were often forced to live in substandard housing infested with bugs and rodents.

Acts of discrimination against the Buffalo Soldiers extended beyond weapons and living quarters. They were constantly reminded of their place in society because high-ranking officers continually denigrated them or shunned them altogether. For example, Gerald Astor notes in The Right to Fight: A History of African Americans in the Military that when the Tenth Cavalry, commanded by Colonel William Grierson, initially arrived in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, the post commander assigned the troops a campsite in a swamp, but he later criticized them for having muddy tents and uniforms. Furthermore, the post commander also informed the Buffalo Soldiers that they were not allowed within fifteen feet of white soldiers. Additionally, General George Custer refused to accept assignments leading black soldiers, while Captain Ambrose Hooker, commander of the Ninth Cavalry’s Company E, referred to the Buffalo Soldiers as “baboons” and regularly used racial epithets toward them. Although the soldiers’ complained about Hooker’s behavior, no action was taken against him.

Lieutenant Henry O. Flipper serves as another notable example of how the Buffalo Soldiers were mistreated. In 1877 Flipper became the first black graduate of West Point, and he later became the first black commanding officer in the history of the U.S. Regular Army. After receiving his diploma, he passed on several military assignments before choosing to serve at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, with the Tenth Cavalry. Even though he was an officer, Flipper never saw any significant combat and was instead relegated to performing menial tasks such as supervising the erection of poles for telegraph lines and maintaining law and order on the frontier.

Flipper’s military career ended prematurely after he was reassigned to Fort Davis, Texas, where he began a friendship with a white woman. The relationship generated resentment among several of the white officers, and the animosity toward Flipper heightened. His primary duty while stationed at Fort Davis was running the commissary and in July 1881, he was arrested after a discrepancy was discovered in his accounts. He was charged with embezzlement and conduct unbecoming an officer. During the ensuing court-martial, Flipper and his lawyers charged that disgruntled white officers had framed him by stealing the missing funds. Although the money was eventually returned and another prime suspect emerged, Flipper was still tried and found guilty of both charges. As a result, he received a dishonorable discharge from the army on June 30, 1882. (Flipper was finally pardoned, by President William Jefferson Clinton, on February 19, 1999.)


FACING RACISM


< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/30/2017 12:42:13 AM >


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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/30/2017 2:20:50 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

FR

FACING RACISM

Despite demonstrating loyalty to the U.S. government, the Buffalo Soldiers endured a great deal of racial discrimination while participating in the Indian Wars. Ironically, the white settlers that they were charged to protect were repeatedly hostile toward them. Their hatred of blacks often manifested itself in the form of violence. Events that occurred at San Angelo, a town adjacent to the Tenth Cavalry’s post at Fort Concho, Texas, serve as a prime example of the kind of hostility that the Buffalo Soldiers had to endure.

Cox notes in The Forgotten Heroes that San Angelo was home to many seedy cowboys, ex-Confederate soldiers, and pimps and prostitutes. Unfortunately, the disreputable inhabitants demonstrated their intolerance of blacks on several occasions. In one instance, Private Hiram Pinder of the Ninth Cavalry was shot and killed by a white gambler in a saloon. The townspeople helped the killer escape and he was never captured. Twelve days after Pinder’s death, Private William Watkins was singing and dancing for drinks in another saloon. He tired of performing and decided to quit for the evening, but a rancher named Tom McCarthy insisted that he continue. When Watkins refused, McCarthy shot and killed him. McCarthy then fled, but he was captured by soldiers who turned him over to the sheriff. Instead of jailing McCarthy, however, the sheriff allowed him to remain free because killing a black person was only considered a minor crime. When he was finally tried for the murder of Private Watkins, an all-white jury found him not guilty.

In addition to facing discrimination from civilians, the Buffalo Soldiers also encountered systemic prejudice within the military. For instance, black soldiers were always second to their white counterparts when equipment was distributed. White soldiers selected the most pristine weapons and best horses, leaving the Buffalo Soldiers with old rifles and worn-out mares. Furthermore, they were often forced to live in substandard housing infested with bugs and rodents.

Acts of discrimination against the Buffalo Soldiers extended beyond weapons and living quarters. They were constantly reminded of their place in society because high-ranking officers continually denigrated them or shunned them altogether. For example, Gerald Astor notes in The Right to Fight: A History of African Americans in the Military that when the Tenth Cavalry, commanded by Colonel William Grierson, initially arrived in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, the post commander assigned the troops a campsite in a swamp, but he later criticized them for having muddy tents and uniforms. Furthermore, the post commander also informed the Buffalo Soldiers that they were not allowed within fifteen feet of white soldiers. Additionally, General George Custer refused to accept assignments leading black soldiers, while Captain Ambrose Hooker, commander of the Ninth Cavalry’s Company E, referred to the Buffalo Soldiers as “baboons” and regularly used racial epithets toward them. Although the soldiers’ complained about Hooker’s behavior, no action was taken against him.

Lieutenant Henry O. Flipper serves as another notable example of how the Buffalo Soldiers were mistreated. In 1877 Flipper became the first black graduate of West Point, and he later became the first black commanding officer in the history of the U.S. Regular Army. After receiving his diploma, he passed on several military assignments before choosing to serve at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, with the Tenth Cavalry. Even though he was an officer, Flipper never saw any significant combat and was instead relegated to performing menial tasks such as supervising the erection of poles for telegraph lines and maintaining law and order on the frontier.

Flipper’s military career ended prematurely after he was reassigned to Fort Davis, Texas, where he began a friendship with a white woman. The relationship generated resentment among several of the white officers, and the animosity toward Flipper heightened. His primary duty while stationed at Fort Davis was running the commissary and in July 1881, he was arrested after a discrepancy was discovered in his accounts. He was charged with embezzlement and conduct unbecoming an officer. During the ensuing court-martial, Flipper and his lawyers charged that disgruntled white officers had framed him by stealing the missing funds. Although the money was eventually returned and another prime suspect emerged, Flipper was still tried and found guilty of both charges. As a result, he received a dishonorable discharge from the army on June 30, 1882. (Flipper was finally pardoned, by President William Jefferson Clinton, on February 19, 1999.)


FACING RACISM


That makes sense, they were participating in genoside, but they were the victims.
If you had done your research you would know that all shouldiers were treated like subhumans. I realize that only disrespect for blacks count for you cause after all white sholders were subhuman.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 6/30/2017 3:10:36 AM >


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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/30/2017 2:27:43 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

No question a lot of the Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe at Little Big Horn had repeating rifles, but I recall reading years ago, (don't ask me for a
citation, it was a long time ago) that roughly 2/3 of Custer's men were killed by arrows. Imagine if Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse and Chief Gall had
been able to equip their forces with modern type bows, they would not have needed guns at all.

The big thing was that Crazy Horse was the better general. Just a couple of days before the Little Big Horn he defeated Crook with onl about a third of the men Crook had.
I never heard that most of Custers men had been shot with arrows. It is possible that my various sources emphsized the henerys because bows were just too embarassing.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/30/2017 4:01:47 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

We didn't need guns, we killed off far more native Americans with Smallpox and Diphtheria than we did with bullets. Part of the darker side of US history that is not usually found in your grade school history books.


Yup and the bounty on buffalo. The Natives survived on buffalo and the US purposely slaughtered them to starve them out.

T^T

ETA : Sorry, someone beat me to it.

What really surprised me was when a friend of mine who has studied those times and knows about the strategies in the civil war and all this did not know about the war on buffalo. We almost got into an argument about it, or maybe a fight.

So I decided to email him a link which I thought would be easy to find, but was not. It is as if some of history is just erased, or at least not published on the web.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 6/30/2017 4:03:07 AM >

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RE: I was wrong, we have had a race war. - 6/30/2017 4:46:05 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

We didn't need guns, we killed off far more native Americans with Smallpox and Diphtheria than we did with bullets. Part of the darker side of US history that is not usually found in your grade school history books.


Yup and the bounty on buffalo. The Natives survived on buffalo and the US purposely slaughtered them to starve them out.

T^T

ETA : Sorry, someone beat me to it.

What really surprised me was when a friend of mine who has studied those times and knows about the strategies in the civil war and all this did not know about the war on buffalo. We almost got into an argument about it, or maybe a fight.

So I decided to email him a link which I thought would be easy to find, but was not. It is as if some of history is just erased, or at least not published on the web.

T^T

The slaughter of the buffalo for the purpose od destroing indian society is often ignored and credited to other reasons.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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