RE: Does Multiculturalism work?

RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/26/2017 6:59:23 PM)
I don't think so either.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/26/2017 8:09:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery It's a stretch to say anything public education is multi-cultural. If you were to have been following along, it's clear how we got to this point in the thread.

vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/28/2017 3:35:43 AM)
quote: Teachers don't just teach, and that's the part that really bugs me. Teachers, and school districts, are, in many cases, also the parents, the disciplinarians, and the nurturers. If kids got those things at home, teachers would be able to devote more time to their actual mission - teaching. Society has yet to figure out how to get the all parent(s) of kids - across all socioeconomic divisions - to provide a nurturing and academically supportive home environment. That is one of the biggest factors in academic success, isn't it? Unfortunately, in poorer socioeconomic areas, the concentration of nurturing and academically supportive home environments is much lower than in higher socioeconomic areas. You want the state to spend the dollars to get school supplies, etc.? Relying on data from last year (Ohio school report cards; only because I'm not going to take the time to look up the exact figures for 2016/17 academic year), the school with the highest $/pupil spending (Ottawa Hills) also had the highest rate of academic achievement. The school with the second highest $/pupil spending (Toledo Public) had the lowest rate of academic achievement. IIRC, Anthony Wayne schools (a suburb) had the second or third highest rate of academic achievement, and the second or third lowest $/pupil spending. Why does Toledo Public spend more than other schools, but can't out-succeed the rest of the schools? The question you asked in the last paragraph was answered in your first paragraph. Children do not come to school all equally skilled in learning. To some degree they learn how to learn in early childhood and they develop different values about the need for education from their homes and in their neighborhoods. So, nurturing is a necessary ingredient in teaching strategy. Nurturing reduces the need for discipline and the resistance to sitting in a confined, regimented area for eight hours. That last demand we make on children is unnatural and conflicts with their desire to search and socialize and be free. This is true for children from any socioeconomic cohort. Kids from affluent homes need nurturing as well as kids from lower wealth communities. I cannot emphasize enough that we are with them eight hours a day. We are their parents for that eight hours. Children do not come to us with tableu rosa to be filled on an assembly line. They are animated, grouchy, irritated, maybe hungry, maybe sugar stimulated, moody, squirmy young pups. Nurturing should be a primary part of every teacher's array of tools. Teachers need to be good sales people who can create an interest and a demand for their products among the young.

Real0ne -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/28/2017 7:52:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The lesson I took from this is that people can solve these issues where there's goodwill and a desire to succeed. people can put aside issues where there is a common need to keep from killing each other. MC works like any other relationship, where interests intersect. Cultures are based solely on religion, if all religions involved agree that murder is bad that element can be integrated across several cultures and on that note everyone will be happy, hence that was the pretended charter of the US gubmint is concerned, to protect everyones religion, however not so much defacto when they established themselves as a religion. Not rocket science by a long shot

DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/28/2017 9:43:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Teachers don't just teach, and that's the part that really bugs me. Teachers, and school districts, are, in many cases, also the parents, the disciplinarians, and the nurturers. If kids got those things at home, teachers would be able to devote more time to their actual mission - teaching. Society has yet to figure out how to get the all parent(s) of kids - across all socioeconomic divisions - to provide a nurturing and academically supportive home environment. That is one of the biggest factors in academic success, isn't it? Unfortunately, in poorer socioeconomic areas, the concentration of nurturing and academically supportive home environments is much lower than in higher socioeconomic areas. You want the state to spend the dollars to get school supplies, etc.? Relying on data from last year (Ohio school report cards; only because I'm not going to take the time to look up the exact figures for 2016/17 academic year), the school with the highest $/pupil spending (Ottawa Hills) also had the highest rate of academic achievement. The school with the second highest $/pupil spending (Toledo Public) had the lowest rate of academic achievement. IIRC, Anthony Wayne schools (a suburb) had the second or third highest rate of academic achievement, and the second or third lowest $/pupil spending. Why does Toledo Public spend more than other schools, but can't out-succeed the rest of the schools? The question you asked in the last paragraph was answered in your first paragraph. Children do not come to school all equally skilled in learning. To some degree they learn how to learn in early childhood and they develop different values about the need for education from their homes and in their neighborhoods. So, nurturing is a necessary ingredient in teaching strategy. Nurturing reduces the need for discipline and the resistance to sitting in a confined, regimented area for eight hours. That last demand we make on children is unnatural and conflicts with their desire to search and socialize and be free. This is true for children from any socioeconomic cohort. Kids from affluent homes need nurturing as well as kids from lower wealth communities. I cannot emphasize enough that we are with them eight hours a day. We are their parents for that eight hours. Children do not come to us with tableu rosa to be filled on an assembly line. They are animated, grouchy, irritated, maybe hungry, maybe sugar stimulated, moody, squirmy young pups. Nurturing should be a primary part of every teacher's array of tools. Teachers need to be good sales people who can create an interest and a demand for their products among the young. Yes, Vince, teachers are nurturing the students. That's called "teaching." I could never be a ELHI school teacher. I don't have the patience. I make no bones about that, and hold those who do in very high esteem. I might be able to handle undergrad teaching, but I'm not sure I have enough patience, either. Based solely on my patience level with others, I'd likely only be able to teach post-grad students. So, let's get into some data, shall we? Yes, I pulled the latest stats for my County (SOURCE) as gathered by the State of Ohio. The 8 Lucas County Public School Districts, listed in best performance to worst performance. In parentheses is the actual rank of the the school district out of the total 610 Ohio public school districts. 1 Ottawa Hills Local (7th) 2 Anthony Wayne Local (51st) 3 Sylvania City (97th) 4 Maumee City (194th) 5 Springfield Local (304th) 6 Oregon City (386th) 7 Washington Local (453rd) 8 Toledo City (595th) Here's the same list of Lucas County PSD's (performance rank out of all 610 Ohio PSD's in parentheses), but this time in order of total expenditures per equivalent pupil (EPEP), with the total $ EPEP listed. 1 Ottawa Hills Local (7th) $13,998.13 (7th highest EPEP for an Ohio PSD) 4 Maumee City (194th) $10,751.87 (47th highest EPEP for an Ohio PSD) 8 Toledo City (595th) $9,904.27 (92nd highest EPEP for an Ohio PSD) 7 Washington Local (453rd) $9,412.65 (137th highest EPEP for an Ohio PSD) 3 Sylvania City (97th) $9,088.10 (191st highest EPEP for an Ohio PSD) 6 Oregon City (386th) $8,914.34 (228th highest EPEP for an Ohio PSD) 2 Anthony Wayne Local (51st) $8,911.31 (230th highest EPEP for an Ohio PSD) 5 Springfield Local (304th) $7,929.88 (467th highest EPEP for an Ohio PSD) I was surprised to see Maumee City spending the 2nd most. That has changed from prior years, iirc. Now, let's see the list in order of highest classroom-only EPEP. 1 Ottawa Hills Local (7th) $10,672 4 Maumee City (194th) $7,268 7 Washington Local (453rd) $6,602 8 Toledo City (595th) $6,402 6 Oregon City (386th) $6,216 2 Anthony Wayne Local (51st) $6,111 3 Sylvania City (97th) $6,051 5 Springfield Local (304th) $5,560 And, finally, the same schools listed in order of highest non-classroom EPEP. 8 Toledo City (595th) $3,503 4 Maumee City (194th) $3,484 1 Ottawa Hills Local (7th) $3,326 3 Sylvania City (97th) $3,037 7 Washington Local (453rd) $2,811 2 Anthony Wayne Local (51st) $2,800 6 Oregon City (386th) $2,699 5 Springfield Local (304th) $2,369 The Village of Ottawa Hills, according to the Wiki, "serves as an affluent bedroom community and suburb of Toledo" and is "ranked 13th of 1065 political subdivisions in the state of Ohio by per capita income." And, "[t]he median price of a house in Ottawa Hills is approximately $254,800, with 30% of the homes having been built before 1939. The village's large homes, as 74.2% have eight or more rooms, 40% of homes have four bedrooms, and 12.8% have five or greater. 3.1%, or 42 of the 1366 homes, are multimillion-dollar homes." Essentially, it's an affluent socio-economic enclave. No surprise the PSD spends so much per pupil, no? Toledo PSD spends more per equivalent pupil in non-classroom expenditures than any of the other Lucas County schools (81st most among all 610 Ohio PSD's), yet is ranked 595th for academic performance, out of those same 610 Ohio PSD's. Imo, it's the non-classroom muck that TPS has to wade through that is increasing their expenditures beyond the other local schools. And, imo, the extra stuff TPS has to deal with is stuff that the students' parent(s) should be taking care of; not TPS, or TPS teachers.

vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/28/2017 12:59:20 PM)
quote: Imo, it's the non-classroom muck that TPS has to wade through that is increasing their expenditures beyond the other local schools. And, imo, the extra stuff TPS has to deal with is stuff that the students' parent(s) should be taking care of; not TPS, or TPS teachers. Shudda, wudda, cudda!! I have been on a number of school evaluation teams. Getting a sense of the school's zeitgeist, what it needs, what is being fulfilled, and what is lacking is very difficult. The schools "prettied up" for our visits. The best evaluators would be a committee of parents, teachers, and administrators who could be fearlessly honest and free of finger pointing, and with input from classroom teachers and students. I don't know how you would control for CYA-bias. But that is a utopian dream. In the real world, I don't know how you get a clear picture. I wish I had the wisdom. For starters, you really have to examine what programs contribute to the non-classroom costs and ask how effective they are in contributing to the school's mission. quote: Yes, Vince, teachers are nurturing the students. That's called "teaching." No, DS, that is a strategy for beginning the more essential part of the student-teacher dialogue, the learning. Discipline issues fall away and students become more receptive to active learning. The student has to accept the fact that learning requires more work by him than by the teacher. Boy, it is so much easier to write these ideas here in the calm of my retirement living room than it was to remember them in the hustle and pressure of the daily classroom . . LOL!!!

DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/28/2017 9:39:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Imo, it's the non-classroom muck that TPS has to wade through that is increasing their expenditures beyond the other local schools. And, imo, the extra stuff TPS has to deal with is stuff that the students' parent(s) should be taking care of; not TPS, or TPS teachers. Shudda, wudda, cudda!! I have been on a number of school evaluation teams. Getting a sense of the school's zeitgeist, what it needs, what is being fulfilled, and what is lacking is very difficult. The schools "prettied up" for our visits. The best evaluators would be a committee of parents, teachers, and administrators who could be fearlessly honest and free of finger pointing, and with input from classroom teachers and students. I don't know how you would control for CYA-bias. But that is a utopian dream. In the real world, I don't know how you get a clear picture. I wish I had the wisdom. For starters, you really have to examine what programs contribute to the non-classroom costs and ask how effective they are in contributing to the school's mission. I can tell you anecdotes from Toledo Public School teachers, but they are nothing more than anecdotes, since none of the teachers I know - unless I just don't about it - are on these boards. You could have the very same stories as these TPS teachers, but, they are still little more than anecdotes without corroboration. I have stories, and I'm sure you do, too. quote: quote: Yes, Vince, teachers are nurturing the students. That's called "teaching." No, DS, that is a strategy for beginning the more essential part of the student-teacher dialogue, the learning. Discipline issues fall away and students become more receptive to active learning. The student has to accept the fact that learning requires more work by him than by the teacher. Boy, it is so much easier to write these ideas here in the calm of my retirement living room than it was to remember them in the hustle and pressure of the daily classroom . . LOL!!! My Father taught HS English and Econ for 2 years before he, basically, said "fuck this shit," and he went back to school, returning to the school district as an administrator (and he retired as an Asst. Superintendent 26 years later). He has his own stories to tell from his career. We ask and/or expect way too much from our Public Schools. Is it the school's responsibility to make sure a child is getting offered more than one nutritious meal each day? Many do, and some even want to expand it to 3 nutritious meals/weekday students are offered. That's not the responsibility of a school district, regardless of how important nutrition is to learning. Too often school districts are expected to pick up the slack when a child's life outside of school isn't conducive to academic success and/or learning how to be a productive member of society. Schools simply don't have the authority or ability to do that. In my academic "career," I've only had a handful of poor teachers; 3 from what I can recall. One was a foreign post-grad student TA leading a biology lab. His ability to communicate was so bad, there were times when he'd write instead of speak a lesson, and sometimes a different biology TA would come in to help (also foreign, but with a mild Indian accent, so she was understandable). One was arrogant and condescending (older white male, assume he was an American citizen as he had no noticeable accent), which sure as fuck doesn't work for me. I got almost nothing out of Gen. Physics II discussion class (lecture and labs were a different story). And the third was an absolutely brilliant woman with her Ph.D in math, but her ability to convey ideas and explain math to first year math (the class was, in my opinion, almost a remedial class at ITT, designed to make sure every student had a basic grasp of math and problem-solving) students was weak. I'm sure she was an amazing instructor at higher level math, as that was how she taught. She could explain things in only one way. If a student didn't understand her explanation, and ask a question showing that, she could only respond by reiterating what she had already stated. She couldn't relate it down any further. Brilliant woman. In the classroom setting, she was very nice (no idea outside of the classroom, so I won't make any statements about it), but not the right teacher for that class. It's hitting me that every one of the teachers that I've rated as 'poor' was after high school, and only one was in a for-profit setting.

vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/29/2017 10:20:24 AM)
quote: We ask and/or expect way too much from our Public Schools. Is it the school's responsibility to make sure a child is getting offered more than one nutritious meal each day? Many do, and some even want to expand it to 3 nutritious meals/weekday students are offered. That's not the responsibility of a school district, regardless of how important nutrition is to learning. Notebook and ink pen are often essential to student learning tasks. Would you not provide those materials to a truly needy child? I believe money for student meals comes from the Federal Govt. Jobs are created for farmers, meal assemblers, delivery personnel, etc. Many of them may be private companies. A win-win. quote: Too often school districts are expected to pick up the slack when a child's life outside of school isn't conducive to academic success and/or learning how to be a productive member of society. Schools simply don't have the authority or ability to do that. Oh, I believe they do have the authority; they can hire and train specifically for that mission. I don't ever recall a college professor talking about the social mission of schools. Well, probably they did in the most general, historical fashion. Get kids out of the coal mines and then off the streets. You're aware right that the schools get these students at a very vulnerable time of their lives: they are pumping hormones but the executive (right vs wrong) prefrontal lobe of the brain is not usually developed before age 25. They are in a world of confusion. And many of them come from families with members who express antisocial values. I believe the schools have a vital responsibility. quote: And the third was an absolutely brilliant woman with her Ph.D in math, but her ability to convey ideas and explain math to first year math I suspect that failing is all to common among math teachers. They are so caught up in their mathematical proofs they forget how to explain thee relevance of their equations.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/29/2017 10:51:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: We ask and/or expect way too much from our Public Schools. Is it the school's responsibility to make sure a child is getting offered more than one nutritious meal each day? Many do, and some even want to expand it to 3 nutritious meals/weekday students are offered. That's not the responsibility of a school district, regardless of how important nutrition is to learning. Notebook and ink pen are often essential to student learning tasks. Would you not provide those materials to a truly needy child? I believe money for student meals comes from the Federal Govt. Jobs are created for farmers, meal assemblers, delivery personnel, etc. Many of them may be private companies. A win-win. I do donate to charitable organizations. My employer is actually running a program with a local charity where we are donating school supplies (not $$ for the organization to buy supplies, but the supplies themselves). My employer has also run programs to support a local charity (Hannah's Socks) that collects socks to distribute to the homeless. My employer has also run programs that supported a local women's shelter (women and children) with dental supplies, and runs a "competition" among the 3 production plants ("winning" plant gets a pizza party on each shift) collecting money for the United Way of Greater Toledo. I've participated, by my own choice, in all charitable programs through my employer, without exception. With that said, is it the local community's duty (or the PSD's duty) to make sure every child has writing utensils and media? Or, should that responsibility be borne by the parent(s) of that child? quote: quote: Too often school districts are expected to pick up the slack when a child's life outside of school isn't conducive to academic success and/or learning how to be a productive member of society. Schools simply don't have the authority or ability to do that. Oh, I believe they do have the authority; they can hire and train specifically for that mission. I don't ever recall a college professor talking about the social mission of schools. Well, probably they did in the most general, historical fashion. Get kids out of the coal mines and then off the streets. Hiring and training specifically for a student's home situation to be more conducive to academic success?!? I'd love to know how a school can hire and train specifically for that. quote: You're aware right that the schools get these students at a very vulnerable time of their lives: they are pumping hormones but the executive (right vs wrong) prefrontal lobe of the brain is not usually developed before age 25. They are in a world of confusion. And many of them come from families with members who express antisocial values. I believe the schools have a vital responsibility. I am quite aware that the developmental time of a child while school age is challenging for the kid, the parent(s), and the PSD. How is a school supposed to "hire and train" to combat a shitty home environment for a student? quote: quote: And the third was an absolutely brilliant woman with her Ph.D in math, but her ability to convey ideas and explain math to first year math I suspect that failing is all to common among math teachers. They are so caught up in their mathematical proofs they forget how to explain thee relevance of their equations. Like I said, it was a remedial-level course called "Problem Solving" that every student at ITT had to take in his/her first quarter. On the last day of class I stayed after and she drew the Unit Circle on the board and explained it in a way that I had never had it explained, and it tied together much of my previous education (most advanced class I'd taken was a full year of engineering calculus, so math is neither foreign nor scary to me; quite the opposite, to be honest). She couldn't teach on the level that the students' in the class needed her teach at. I was happy to step in and bridge the gap between the level she was explaining and the level they could understand. Very nice instructor, and quite brilliant, but a poor teacher for that class.

Real0ne -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/29/2017 12:42:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri She couldn't teach on the level that the students' in the class needed her teach at. I was happy to step in and bridge the gap between the level she was explaining and the level they could understand. Very nice instructor, and quite brilliant, but a poor teacher for that class. Most students dont know the difference, they simply understand the 'how to' but not the underlying principles. Same thing happened to me with my physics prof, same problem. His knowledge was top shelf, however he couldnt teach to save his ass. I tried to reason with him and like your example he simply did a rerun repeat and I finally got pissed and went to the dean, and the nutshell version of that conversation went like this: I am the fucking customer here, I paid my hard earned money to be fucking taught, now fucking teach me, his style, simply throwing a book at us and expecting us to pass tests based on procedural memorization is not teaching. That resulted in his ass being brought before the dean after which time he was more than happy to take the time to give me the foundational education I paid for. I think I said it earlier that multiculturalism which is actually better said multireligionism is not 'satisfactorily' possible under the brito/american at the end of the legislative barrel of a gun always choosing one religion/culture (which are inseperably tied together) over the other. That aspect is always glossed over by those who place statism above religion/culture.

WickedsDesire -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/29/2017 1:37:27 PM)
DesideriScuri 100% pass - do you know the difference edwird? Anyhoos I am trying to find the face of god song by hymn can anyone help me with that dark place?

WickedsDesire -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/29/2017 1:39:48 PM)
Goddammit its HIM grrrs Sorry on the you tube the night eh! :)

WickedsDesire -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/29/2017 1:41:17 PM)
The Face of God HIM lyrics

vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/30/2017 3:04:37 AM)
quote: With that said, is it the local community's duty (or the PSD's duty) to make sure every child has writing utensils and media? Or, should that responsibility be borne by the parent(s) of that child? Sad to say, not all children come to school with pencils or even breakfast maybe in some cases the parent may be struggling and unable to provide. Then, there are a number of homeless children who attend school. One out of every 30 children in the U.S. experienced homelessness last year. That makes nearly 2.5 million children who, in 2013, lived in shelters, on the streets, in cars, on campgrounds or doubled up with other families in tight quarters, often moving from one temporary solution to another, according to “America’s Youngest Outcasts,” a report published Monday by the the National Center on Family Homelessness at the American Institutes for Research. SOURCE quote: Hiring and training specifically for a student's home situation to be more conducive to academic success?!? I'd love to know how a school can hire and train specifically for that. I had a weekend workshop in classroom management where the topic was discussed and discussed in college courses I took. So, it begins with the college teaching curriculum. Of course, we can't teach for each child's individual home environment but as I wrote earlier we can change the classroom dynamic from a teacher oriented authoritarian classroom to one that is child centered, inclusive and nurturing. These are not new ideas. There are other class room management techniques that make the teacher and the lesson more inviting, and do not increase the cost per child. Years ago in Miami-Dade county there was a fetish for teaching pods so classrooms were built to accommodate 15 kids but with the boom in population we ended with 30 - 35 kids in each pod, with no walls between the pods. I was rather resentful of that and transferred out of that school. Don't ask, I could not relate the chaos and stress.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/30/2017 5:22:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: With that said, is it the local community's duty (or the PSD's duty) to make sure every child has writing utensils and media? Or, should that responsibility be borne by the parent(s) of that child? Sad to say, not all children come to school with pencils or even breakfast maybe in some cases the parent may be struggling and unable to provide. Then, there are a number of homeless children who attend school. Are you trying to make the argument that PSD's should also provide homes for the students? There are charities that will provide shelter for the homeless. Providing kids with writing utensils and media, and feeding them is a noble and charitable gesture. The argument for PSD's to provide writing utensils and media is a much stronger one than is feeding the children. Feeding children isn't why we have schools, and while it certainly does play a part in supporting a child's ability to learn, offering an education to a child doesn't require it. Does a PSD bear the responsibility to make sure all kids that roam it's halls graduate? Or, is it the PSD's responsibility to provide access to teaching and to attempt to motivate a student to take advantage of the opportunity? quote: quote: Hiring and training specifically for a student's home situation to be more conducive to academic success?!? I'd love to know how a school can hire and train specifically for that. ~~I had a weekend workshop in classroom management where the topic was discussed and discussed in college courses I took. So, it begins with the college teaching curriculum.~~ Of course, we can't teach for each child's individual home environment ~~but as I wrote earlier we can change the classroom dynamic from a teacher oriented authoritarian classroom to one that is child centered, inclusive and nurturing. These are not new ideas.~~ I struck out the stuff that makes zero difference. It's the home environment that is the key. This is the part of academic success that is most missing in lower socioeconomic areas. This is one of the huge differences between suburban homes and urban homes. While suburban homes aren't always conducive to academic success, and there will be city school students in lower socioeconomic areas who have fantastic home environments, the trends are clear. And, this is what society in general can't figure out how to take care of. Unless you're looking at taking every student away from their homes during the school year (and possibly over breaks from school) and providing everything that child needs (food, shelter, and a safe and nurturing environment that supports academic success, there will be unequal inputs for academic success outputs. quote: There are other class room management techniques that make the teacher and the lesson more inviting, and do not increase the cost per child. And all those things probably should be done. FFS, that's not in question here, Vincent! quote: Years ago in Miami-Dade county there was a fetish for teaching pods so classrooms were built to accommodate 15 kids but with the boom in population we ended with 30 - 35 kids in each pod, with no walls between the pods. I was rather resentful of that and transferred out of that school. Don't ask, I could not relate the chaos and stress. I experienced the "pod" strategy in 2nd grade (Miss Armstrong's class). I'm pretty sure there were at least 20 kids in each pod, but I don't recall there being much chaos or distraction. While my memories of those days get murkier as the days fly by, the room was yuge. almost like a converted gymnasium (normal ceiling heights, carpeting, etc.) for 3 pods.While there were no walls, there were things like bookshelves that were placed strategically to define areas. My graduating class was the last of the "big" classes in that sliver of time, and we were bigger than most of the classes the 5 previous years. Kindergarten and 1st grade were held in rooms off the two North halls of my HS. 2nd and 3rd shared a building (which now is K-2, if I recall correctly). 4th-6th was in another building, a 2-year Jr. HS and a 4-year HS rounded out my district (suburban district). I know at one point in time (after I graduated HS), the district was going to change the first elementary building (Furry Elem.) from K-3 to K-2), the second elementary building (Meadowlawn Elem) from 4-6 to 3-5, and the Jr. High (Briar Middle School) from 7-8 to 6-8. When I was attending HS, the North wing that I attended Kindergarten at was used for business-centric classes like typing, the OWE office, etc., and the 1st grade wing was now the art wing. The former cafeteria/multipurpose room was the HS weight room. That was some nostalgic rambling sparked by your experience of pods. lol

Musicmystery -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/30/2017 5:29:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery It's a stretch to say anything public education is multi-cultural. If you were to have been following along, it's clear how we got to this point in the thread. Following thread drift and reading a coherent logical argument aren't at all the same. Not even similar. It's a stretch. Reason went walk-about.

vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/30/2017 6:04:50 AM)
quote: Are you trying to make the argument that PSD's should also provide homes for the students? There are charities that will provide shelter for the homeless. Did I say that anywhere? I don't think so. quote: Providing kids with writing utensils and media, and feeding them is a noble and charitable gesture. The argument for PSD's to provide writing utensils and media is a much stronger one than is feeding the children. Feeding children isn't why we have schools, and while it certainly does play a part in supporting a child's ability to learn, offering an education to a child doesn't require it. A healthy body, a healthy mind. How do you justify requiring all kids to go to gym class? Maybe if you cut out those gym teachers and coaches you would spend less money, which is your goal. quote: Does a PSD bear the responsibility to make sure all kids that roam it's halls graduate? Or, is it the PSD's responsibility to provide access to teaching and to attempt to motivate a student to take advantage of the opportunity? It is a conundrum, aint it? Your state has a mandatory attendance age. Fifteen, sixteen, whatever. The kid must be in school. There is no mandatory learning law or self-discipline law. So, by default, the schools are required to warehouse kids who don't want to be there, and who are several grade levels below their reading standards, so they are self-excluded scholars because they can't learn if they want to, and mostly they don't want to because they can't. Some cities try to solve that problem with industrial education when there was a call for the industrially educated. Do, they do that anymore? I don't know.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/30/2017 7:09:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery It's a stretch to say anything public education is multi-cultural. If you were to have been following along, it's clear how we got to this point in the thread. Following thread drift and reading a coherent logical argument aren't at all the same. Not even similar. It's a stretch. Reason went walk-about. Yet, Vincent had no issue. Interesting.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/30/2017 7:52:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Are you trying to make the argument that PSD's should also provide homes for the students? There are charities that will provide shelter for the homeless. Did I say that anywhere? I don't think so. If you had said it, I wouldn't have had to ask if you were trying to make that argument. Nice way to not answer the question. quote: quote: Providing kids with writing utensils and media, and feeding them is a noble and charitable gesture. The argument for PSD's to provide writing utensils and media is a much stronger one than is feeding the children. Feeding children isn't why we have schools, and while it certainly does play a part in supporting a child's ability to learn, offering an education to a child doesn't require it. A healthy body, a healthy mind. How do you justify requiring all kids to go to gym class? Maybe if you cut out those gym teachers and coaches you would spend less money, which is your goal. You're comparing a curricular thing with a non-curricular thing. Hardly the same. Plus, gym isn't just "active time," but there are rules to be learned, etc. My goal isn't to "spend less money" as it is to not place responsibilities on entities where that responsibility shouldn't be placed, and to spend money effectively. quote: quote: Does a PSD bear the responsibility to make sure all kids that roam it's halls graduate? Or, is it the PSD's responsibility to provide access to teaching and to attempt to motivate a student to take advantage of the opportunity? It is a conundrum, aint it? Your state has a mandatory attendance age. Fifteen, sixteen, whatever. The kid must be in school. There is no mandatory learning law or self-discipline law. So, by default, the schools are required to warehouse kids who don't want to be there, and who are several grade levels below their reading standards, so they are self-excluded scholars because they can't learn if they want to, and mostly they don't want to because they can't. Some cities try to solve that problem with industrial education when there was a call for the industrially educated. Do, they do that anymore? I don't know. A "mandatory learning" law? How would those who flout the law be "punished?" It's the whole "lead a horse to water" sort of thing there. Schools lead the kids to learning, but they can't force them to learn. At some point, the student has to accept that the responsibility of taking advantage of the opportunity to learn is on him. And, that's a critical point; one where a home environment that is nurturing and supportive of academic success can weigh in and have a dramatic impact. A "Self-discipline" law? While we don't have one exactly, we do have discipline rules to be followed, and there are consequences for not following those rules. I now work with a guy who graduated the same year as my younger brother, but from the city school my Dad worked for, not the suburban school my siblings and I attended. In his short 6-8 months of working as a production supervisor, he has demonstrated - at least in my eyes and several co-workers' eyes - that he is the best production supervisor in my plant. He's also the youngest. He gets along just fine with the white hourly workers as he does with the black or Hispanic hourly workers I was surprised to find out that he spent the second half of one HS school year at my alma mater, because he was expelled for fighting. He got in trouble for fighting his first day at his new school, too. At one point, he was caught with a gun at school (prior to the zero tolerance "movement," so it wasn't as disastrous an event as it would be now). Through being a hot-headed punk kid (his self-description) and facing the consequences, he eventually learned how to be more disciplined, and is doing quite well for himself. So, no, we don't have any "self-discipline" laws, but schools do have disciplinary rules that do come with consequences. "industrial education." I'm not 100% sure I know what you're referring to, but I'm going to continue under the assumption you're talking about "vocational education." When I was growing up, there were some vocational classes you could take. There was auto shop, vocational agriculture (we were a suburb encompassing the typical suburban areas and plenty of farming areas), and there was a work-study (OWE, whatever that stands for) option allowing students 16 or older to attend school for half a day and spend the other half actually working outside the school. I never learned how to work on cars because that wasn't something my Dad ever did, so I never grew up around it (as awesome as Google and YouTube are for learning how to do stuff, I still can't help but think I'd have a much greater understanding and ability had that been something my Dad did with us kids). Any time the car needed something done (including oil changes), he'd park around the back of the HS he worked at and the Auto Tech class would perform the work, and the only cost to my Dad was in parts. His HS also had a home-building class where students could learn how to build a house (a guy I worked with scrounged $5k and bought a property and had the HS build a house on that property, at a cost of $20k in materials; when the house was done, this guy had a $20k mortgage on a $50k property; he was a senior in HS at the time, too). My HS and several other schools were also linked to a joint vocational education school. So, students from several area HS's could attend their final 2 years of HS earning a vocational education. My kids' school district is also one linked to a vocational education school. A friend's son just graduated in June with training in Carpentry. He works for a construction company as a rough-framer, and is working his way to get his journeyman's card. In his off-time, he enjoys building cabinets. So, yes, if "industrial education" is the same as what we call "vocational education" up here, it still exists, and is a damn good choice for kids who know they aren't going to go to college.

vincentML -> RE: Does Multiculturalism work? (7/30/2017 12:44:29 PM)
quote: If you had said it, I wouldn't have had to ask if you were trying to make that argument. Nice way to not answer the question. My answer is in the fact that I never mentioned it, FFS! quote: You're comparing a curricular thing with a non-curricular thing. Hardly the same. Plus, gym isn't just "active time," but there are rules to be learned, etc. My goal isn't to "spend less money" as it is to not place responsibilities on entities where that responsibility shouldn't be placed, and to spend money effectively. Oh, c'mon! Rules to be learned? Is that why we had gym? Not to develop healthy exercise habits? I gave you that as a comparison to feeding homeless kids when they came to school so they can have the energy to learn. Seems pretty heartless to mandate homeless children to come to school and have them try to learn on an empty stomach. quote: A "mandatory learning" law? A "Self-discipline" law? It's the whole "lead a horse to water" sort of thing there. Schools lead the kids to learning, but they can't force them to learn. At some point, the student has to accept that the responsibility of taking advantage of the opportunity to learn is on him. And, that's a critical point; one where a home environment that is nurturing and supportive of academic success can weigh in and have a dramatic impact. You left your irony perception hat at home today. I said it was a conundrum. That is exactly my point. We can only lead them, excite them, seduce them, etc. We can mandate attendance but we cannot mandate learning nor self-discipline. As I also said, unfortunately, schools end up warehousing these kids until they reach the mandatory attendance law. quote: "industrial education." I'm not 100% sure I know what you're referring to, but I'm going to continue under the assumption you're talking about "vocational education." Yeah, same thing, good call. My bad. My high school was split into an academic track and a vocational track. Allegedly, the college bound and the factory bound. Kids were assigned to the blue collar curriculum based on their IQ, which was just their reading ability, imo. So, the students were segregated from each other. The result was a lot of discipline problems in the vocational track. The academic kids had to take a very few "shop" classes as well, but they were pretty much segregated then as well. That was the solution to what to do with the "unmotivated" kids. quote: So, yes, if "industrial education" is the same as what we call "vocational education" up here, it still exists, and is a damn good choice for kids who know they aren't going to go to college. I didn't see it as a great choice in my small town because as far as I know it never offered any real future opportunities, it only segregated us, mostly racially. That is where multiculturalism failed in my experience. Moving on, DS. Thanks, always enjoy talking with you. Ciao!

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