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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 5:53:09 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The onus isn't on the host country to bend over backwards to get immigrants to integrate.


No it isn't.

Neither is it incumbent upon the highest figure in the host country to label them as "rapists and murderers!"

We did that crap back in the 1880s-1920s re the Irish and Jews and Italians and Polish, etc. Oh yeah, and Africans too.

In any case, I am in agreement with you on your first point that we don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate immigrants. From my observation, they are too busy bending over backwards to assimilate, even still while holding on to their own culture. It's a great magic trick, and the Mexicans and South Americans succeed famously in that endeavor.

The various guys I've worked with in the past who were from Egypt or Syria or Iran weren't quite as quick to catch on, but still, I never heard "I want to bomb your house!" from any of them, contrary to popular belief. They were happy to be here. Who the hell wouldn't be?

Four days ago I was in the grocery store and I was waiting in line behind these effing Mexicans having the temerity to speak their native language in public. But this 4 yr. old girl trailing along with them saw a coupon that somebody had dropped on the floor, and she picked it up and put it to her ear in pretense of talking on a cell phone.

"I'm sorry, Elizabeth, I can't come out to play today", she said in absolutely perfect English. Had she the vocabulary, she could have easily read the news for us tomorrow morning and no one would notice.

I mean, as long as we're cool with having a 4 yr. old rapist and murderer reading our morning news to us.






< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/21/2017 6:06:44 AM >

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 5:56:59 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
The various guys I've worked with in the past who were from Egypt or Syria or Iran weren't quite as quick to catch on, but still, I never heard "I want to bomb your house!" from any of them, contrary to popular belief. They were happy to be here. Who the hell wouldn't be?

The fact that seems to get ignored by the paranoiacs in these arguments is that a majority of the immigrants from sunni and shi'ite states left those countries to get away from that sort of shit, and so would be pretty horrified at the idea of turning any other country into a fourteenth century theocracy.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 6:22:05 AM   
Edwird


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Status: offline 		Whoever shot Lincoln and shot JFK were not from the Middle East or from Mexico.

Of course it is in the interests of home-grown terrorists like Bush I and Cheney and Rumsfeld to divert attention elsewhere.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 6:39:29 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
The various guys I've worked with in the past who were from Egypt or Syria or Iran weren't quite as quick to catch on, but still, I never heard "I want to bomb your house!" from any of them, contrary to popular belief. They were happy to be here. Who the hell wouldn't be?

The fact that seems to get ignored by the paranoiacs in these arguments is that a majority of the immigrants from sunni and shi'ite states left those countries to get away from that sort of shit, and so would be pretty horrified at the idea of turning any other country into a fourteenth century theocracy.


Yup. And even a number of British went West to escape political/religious/business constrictions in the homeland.

Ya know, it just didn't settle well with some of them to have requirement of crown sanction to burn whomever they wanted at the stake.

But I'm sure you've heard all about the US being based on 'religious freedom!', right?

There was a temporary shortage of wood once we were set loose on that religious freedom thing.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 8:31:16 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The onus isn't on the host country to bend over backwards to get immigrants to integrate.

No it isn't.
Neither is it incumbent upon the highest figure in the host country to label them as "rapists and murderers!"
We did that crap back in the 1880s-1920s re the Irish and Jews and Italians and Polish, etc. Oh yeah, and Africans too.
In any case, I am in agreement with you on your first point that we don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate immigrants. From my observation, they are too busy bending over backwards to assimilate, even still while holding on to their own culture. It's a great magic trick, and the Mexicans and South Americans succeed famously in that endeavor.
The various guys I've worked with in the past who were from Egypt or Syria or Iran weren't quite as quick to catch on, but still, I never heard "I want to bomb your house!" from any of them, contrary to popular belief. They were happy to be here. Who the hell wouldn't be?
Four days ago I was in the grocery store and I was waiting in line behind these effing Mexicans having the temerity to speak their native language in public. But this 4 yr. old girl trailing along with them saw a coupon that somebody had dropped on the floor, and she picked it up and put it to her ear in pretense of talking on a cell phone.
"I'm sorry, Elizabeth, I can't come out to play today", she said in absolutely perfect English. Had she the vocabulary, she could have easily read the news for us tomorrow morning and no one would notice.
I mean, as long as we're cool with having a 4 yr. old rapist and murderer reading our morning news to us.


This isn't the late 1800's or early 1900's. You're also talking about, primarily, legal immigrants back then. It's not as easy to immigrate now. It takes too long. I wouldn't be surprised if it's corrupt to a point. That doesn't mean we should accept people coming here by means outside the legal channels.

Your lumping them all together does little to move discussions forward to improving the actual immigration process. Trump sure isn't the most elegant speaker, and may have not made it clear he was talking about illegals with his 'rapists and murderers' comment (he still wouldn't have been accurate if he had made it clear), but opposing illegal immigration and supporting legal immigration aren't diametrically opposed.


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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 8:40:16 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
The various guys I've worked with in the past who were from Egypt or Syria or Iran weren't quite as quick to catch on, but still, I never heard "I want to bomb your house!" from any of them, contrary to popular belief. They were happy to be here. Who the hell wouldn't be?

The fact that seems to get ignored by the paranoiacs in these arguments is that a majority of the immigrants from sunni and shi'ite states left those countries to get away from that sort of shit, and so would be pretty horrified at the idea of turning any other country into a fourteenth century theocracy.


These so-called 'paranoiacs' didn't attempt to prevent immigrants from majority Islam countries from ever coming over. The ban was time-limited (90 days; 120-days for refugees). That time was to be used by immigration officials to improve the vetting process so that "the majority of immigrants from sunni and shi'ite states [leaving] those countries to get away from that sort of shit" can get in, but that the minority of "immigrants from sunni and shi'ite states" who aren't leaving "to get away from that sort of shit" can't get it.

I, personally, think it's a good idea to know that we have measures in place to prevent people who would come here to do harm. Wouldn't you agree?

_____________________________

What I support:

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  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 8:56:40 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Every immigrant group has had it's time in the withering glare of the general public. The Irish and Italians weren't beloved newcomers. The Chinese have had to "pay their dues."

What I read in your words is that every immigrant group has been discriminated, exploited, and persecuted. If not in your words then in our history. America has not been so welcoming of "others" as we like to brag that we are an immigrant nation. That's just "feel good" self-indulgence.


Invaders have traditionally been defended against everywhere on the planet, not just America

Still are, too.

When Christian churches are welcome in Mecca or many of these other 99.999% Muslim-only hotbeds of hate and persecution come talk with me about how great multiculturalism is

We are talking here about migration, not invasion.

Here is a pin for stupidest non-sequitur of the week. Notice that it has a nose clip. Wear it proudly, moron.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 9:03:52 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't believe there is another nation in the world today that has benefited more from multiculturalism than the United States. Our nation was populated by a mixture of cultures and it worked out quite well I would say. But... I believe there is a good reason why it has worked better here, at least in the past, than in many other areas of the world. Many coming here were persecuted by and or disenchanted with the culture they were leaving. They were ready and open to a new culture with freedom that allowed them to do it.

Yes there are areas of this country populated by immigrants that want to stay isolated and keep their own cultures but they are the minority I believe. In my area there was an influx of Bosnian immigrants that has revitalized parts of St. Louis. They kept their food and many traditions but in just a generation have become as American as myself. They are a real credit to America.

All the above said that does not mean the US should be lax in screening immigrants or consider how immigration is affecting employment or support systems. Otherwise there may be times when the US out of self interest may need to limit immigration when appropriate.

Butch

Absolutely right, Butch. Migration theory centers around a "push" and a "pull." Why does the migrant wish to leave where he is and what advantage is offered by his destination. This applies especially to internal migration. You need only read "Grapes of Wrath." Sadly, a primer on the push back and exploitation that migrants often face whether moving internally or across oceans and boundaries.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 10:24:11 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I, personally, think it's a good idea to know that we have measures in place to prevent people who would come here to do harm. Wouldn't you agree?


I absolutely agree.

But if only somehow these 'measures in place to prevent people who would come here to do harm' were extended to 'people already in place to do harm.'

Why should people coming out of the womb while in this country be given a free ride when it comes to 'doing the country harm'? How come Rumsfeld isn't publicly hung, yet?

I don't give a crap about the notion of "multiculturalsm" as an ideological thing. I just see all these Mexicans and S Americans by the numbers working their arse off every day, and all these people from India and Madagascar, etc. doing a multitude of tasks, the Pakistanis and Afghans and Eritreans and Somalians seem to have interest only in running convenience stores. I had to look up on the internet why I have 3,000 Chinese neighbors taking classes at the nearest uni (rich Chinese daddies, as it turns out).

Why do I not feel the least bit threatened personally by any of this?

I just don't.

I just see what's actually in front of me, and I don't make shit up. That might have something to do with it.

Trying to make excuses for the worst jackass of a president this country's ever had is not going to set things right, no matter how wishful the notion.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 10:40:45 AM   
Edwird


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Status: offline 		But I will tell you why the US should absolutely feel threatened.

We are aligned with Mexico and Turkey in not having a national health care system and not having free or low-cost higher education.

Countries who have a clue about the "human capital" thing understand that it's in the country's interest to have the better trained or better educated citizens in order to compete in the world. Countries with a clue don't keep wages artificially low, completely out of balance with productivity.

If lacking such understanding, then we have the situation of the (nearly) highest per-capita GDP country in the world not able to afford health care or higher education, and ranking nearly the lowest of countries in measurement of the bottom two quintiles' wages in ratio to national GDP.

That is absolutely piss-poor performance for a country of such wealth and output capacity, and there is no excuse for it.




< Message edited by Edwird -- 7/21/2017 11:02:07 AM >

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 11:53:58 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

But I will tell you why the US should absolutely feel threatened.

We are aligned with Mexico and Turkey in not having a national health care system and not having free or low-cost higher education.

Countries who have a clue about the "human capital" thing understand that it's in the country's interest to have the better trained or better educated citizens in order to compete in the world. Countries with a clue don't keep wages artificially low, completely out of balance with productivity.

If lacking such understanding, then we have the situation of the (nearly) highest per-capita GDP country in the world not able to afford health care or higher education, and ranking nearly the lowest of countries in measurement of the bottom two quintiles' wages in ratio to national GDP.

That is absolutely piss-poor performance for a country of such wealth and output capacity, and there is no excuse for it.


A real cynic might even suggest that paranoia about moslems is well founded when the madrassas looks halfway credible as an educational system next to your domestic public schools.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 12:13:38 PM   
Edwird


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Status: offline 		The Spanish kicked out the Moors and subsequently forgot how to count money and got Torquemada and Phillip II and Fransisco in the bargain.

What a deal!


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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 12:20:47 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

The Spanish kicked out the Moors and subsequently forgot how to count money and got Torquemada and Phillip II and Fransisco in the bargain.

What a deal!



Oh, you don't even want to go there: people will be remembering a certain idiot's claim that Vlad Tepes (the man who did the job that El Cid wasn't up to in Spain and held the Carpathians against the Turks) was really a moslem terrorist.
I mean, seriously: WTF?

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 12:28:05 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

A real cynic might even suggest that paranoia about moslems is well founded when the madrassas looks halfway credible as an educational system next to your domestic public schools.


What, because the madrassas are less inclined to ram fundamentalist religion down the kids' throats?

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 12:32:41 PM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

A real cynic might even suggest that paranoia about moslems is well founded when the madrassas looks halfway credible as an educational system next to your domestic public schools.


What, because the madrassas are less inclined to ram fundamentalist religion down the kids' throats?

Not by much, but at least they don't pretend they're teaching science while coming out with creationist cockwaffle.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 12:53:24 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

The Spanish kicked out the Moors and subsequently forgot how to count money and got Torquemada and Phillip II and Fransisco in the bargain.

What a deal!



Oh, you don't even want to go there: people will be remembering a certain idiot's claim that Vlad Tepes (the man who did the job that El Cid wasn't up to in Spain and held the Carpathians against the Turks) was really a moslem terrorist.
I mean, seriously: WTF?


No, I don't want to go there. And neither do the allegedly 'inferior' US public schools go there.

I don't know what you or Peon are on about, but any religion or 'Vlad' is not anything being shoved down kids' throats in this country.

You guys are getting wayyy too carried away, here. Even in private schools, religion is an optional course.

Sorry if I provoked it, which I guess I did.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 1:01:35 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I, personally, think it's a good idea to know that we have measures in place to prevent people who would come here to do harm. Wouldn't you agree?

I absolutely agree.
But if only somehow these 'measures in place to prevent people who would come here to do harm' were extended to 'people already in place to do harm.'


It would be fantastic to be able to know who is a threat and who isn't. Once they have citizenship, though, it's that much more difficult to prevent them from being here.

quote:

Why should people coming out of the womb while in this country be given a free ride when it comes to 'doing the country harm'? How come Rumsfeld isn't publicly hung, yet?


Your first question brings an interpretation into play a lot of people don't agree with. IMO (and in the opinion of the ones who wrote the amendment), the 14th amendment shouldn't grant citizenship to babies born within US territory to parents who are not citizens. We grant citizenship to babies born outside US territory to a parent or parents with US citizenship provided at least one parent with US citizenship has lived in the US for 5 years (at least 2 of those years have to be after the age of 14). Birthright citizenship was not intended to apply to non-citizens who give birth within US territory.

quote:

I don't give a crap about the notion of "multiculturalsm" as an ideological thing. I just see all these Mexicans and S Americans by the numbers working their arse off every day, and all these people from India and Madagascar, etc. doing a multitude of tasks, the Pakistanis and Afghans and Eritreans and Somalians seem to have interest only in running convenience stores. I had to look up on the internet why I have 3,000 Chinese neighbors taking classes at the nearest uni (rich Chinese daddies, as it turns out).
Why do I not feel the least bit threatened personally by any of this?
I just don't.
I just see what's actually in front of me, and I don't make shit up. That might have something to do with it.


It must be nice to be able to just look at a person and know if he/she is an immigrant or not. I know I can't. Perhaps you should work for USBP, ICE, or INS? Or, can you not tell if they are legal or illegal, too?

quote:

Trying to make excuses for the worst jackass of a president this country's ever had is not going to set things right, no matter how wishful the notion.


I made no excuses for anything. I only explained the reasoning behind my support of the temporary travel ban. I've said all along that Trump is the 2nd worst Presidential candidate I've seen in my lifetime. And, he didn't get my vote. Misrepresenting or mischaracterising legislation, EO's, etc. is not way to have a discussion about the merits or demerits of those things.

_____________________________

What I support:

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  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 1:01:39 PM   
Edwird


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It's just that now might not be the best time to avert own fault for world affairs by way of diverting attention else where.

Especially not now.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 1:09:40 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

It must be nice to be able to just look at a person and know if he/she is an immigrant or not.


I think it's rather easy for Native Americans to recognize who the immigrants are. And not all that difficult for the rest of us to understand our ancestry in any case.

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RE: Does Multiculturalism work? - 7/21/2017 1:34:05 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

A real cynic might even suggest that paranoia about moslems is well founded when the madrassas looks halfway credible as an educational system next to your domestic public schools.


What, because the madrassas are less inclined to ram fundamentalist religion down the kids' throats?

Not by much, but at least they don't pretend they're teaching science while coming out with creationist cockwaffle.


My comment was prompted partly by a YouTube video I'd just watched - a US girlie had turned up in Edinburgh to start Uni, and had felt obliged eventually to come clean to her new Scots and English pals that she was an atheist. This girl was saying, 'I was shaking in fear at what their reaction would be - I thought I might lose them as friends instantly ...'

Well, you can imagine what her friends actually said. E.g. 'Yeah, er, so what? Why are you even bringing this up? How is it any of our business anyway?' (Etc, etc.)

I was just suddenly reminded of how much they pump the JC stuff that side of the Pond. One can sometimes forget just how much of a Bible-thumping nation is the USA, versus First World nations.



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