quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Sacramento area and flooding.....

Sam Clemens (Mark Twain) was a newspaper reporter in California back during the gold rush days. When I worked the Rancho Seco decomissioning; one thing he mentioned in his stories came home to me, "... a squirrel could go from Angel's Camp to the San Francisco Bay without ever having to touch ground."

Today, it is a cheat grass desert with the occasional irrigated vineyard between Angel's Camp and San Francisco. If the forests hadn't been clear cut and never replanted; would it have turned to desert and have the flooding problems from occasional huge mountain run off?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Thanks for taking the time, to elaborate and share.
*I am no one in particular.

I don't fully understand all the nuances you are speaking of, but I am getting the big picture.
Capitalism

Marni, this article gives the history of Houston (& area).. thought you might find it interesting.. I thin Mother Nature is trying to take it back...

"Inundation is nothing new here. Right from the start, it took tremendous effort and loss of life to claim the Houston area from the prevailing floods.
O.F. Allen, an early settler and nephew of a Houston founder, wrote of his experience in the infant city:
"Once could hardly picture the jungle and swampy woods that a good portion of the city is built upon. These swampy grounds had to be cleared and drained. The writer himself quite clearly remembers that the southwestern portion of the city was a green scum lake, studded with giant sweet gum trees, and water from one to two and a half feet deep... "

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/explainer/article/The-trouble-with-living-in-a-swamp-Houston-7954514.php

That is interesting, I am not sure I would want to rebuild in Houston, but people will.
Looking at the damage and devastation is unbelievable.

Inside home damaged by Hurricane Harvey

Thats just part of the problem with where Houston is... the place is sinking!!! Mother Nature is trying to take it back! But, this is the 4th biggest city in the US so it aint going anywhere else..

"For years, the Houston area has been losing ground
Houston is sinking - and has been for decades.

As torrential rains have pounded the city in consecutive years, leading to repeated, heavy and deadly flooding, this inconvenient fact contributes to the region's misery.

Parts of Harris County have dropped between 10 and 12 feet since the 1920s, according to data from the U.S. Geological Survey.

State and local officials have made various efforts over the past 40 years to stabilize the ground, but some areas continue to sink - by as much as 2 inches per year. "
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/For-years-the-Houston-area-has-been-losing-ground-7951625.php

Now they say at least 60 have died.. many were people that ventured out and got caught in flash floods/flooded roads.. that is the biggest danger, not so much the winds..

"Officials now blame at least 60 deaths on Harvey after the storm dumped many feet of rain on several counties in a matter of days.

Many of those deaths were people drowning in flash floods or water-logged roads. But county emergency management departments across southeast Texas tell The Associated Press they are including people in their storm-related death totals who died from indirect complications of Harvey."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/latest-residents-allowed-home-near-chemical-plant-145111839.html

There are people flocking here now to make big bucks $$$$$$ doing home repairs, etc.. I guess this means higher rents, higher costs for building materials (hope they dont import more Chinese drywall to fill demand), construction job wages rising, various other costs increasing..

eta- forgot to mention the 13 or so Superfund toxic chemical waste sites that are flooded...

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/texas/article/AP-EXCLUSIVE-Toxic-waste-sites-flooded-EPA-not-12169198.php

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Thanks for posting and the links, tj.
Question, should the government subsidize and help people re-build in an area where they will not be able to get flood insurance?
Also, what is the role of the government in allowing communities such as this to be created, KNOWING there is a risk that this could happen.
Capitalism
Many people were aware that this flooding disaster could happen, and despite that allowed Houston to turn into a concrete jungle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Thanks for posting and the links, tj.
Question, should the government subsidize and help people re-build in an area where they will not be able to get flood insurance?
Also, what is the role of the government in allowing communities such as this to be created, KNOWING there is a risk that this could happen.
Capitalism
Many people were aware that this flooding disaster could happen, and despite that allowed Houston to turn into a concrete jungle.

I am not sure how flood insurance works and I am leary of it and insurance companies, given that Sandy homeowners were ripped off so badly. There is a lot wrong with the way the system is set up & insurance companies get away with way too much.. There are some previously flooded home owners that rebuilt here and Houston told them to get a permit they needed to raise their homes. So some homes were raised the required amount, 4 or 5 feet higher and then this storm happens and they are flooded again, so what the city told them to do still didnt save them from the next bad flood.. some homes have never had flood problems until Harvey , some areas were flooded by 17 or so feet.. so if you want to rebuild, do you raise your house 17+ feet???? that simply doesnt make sense.. I think in some areas the govt bought the property of those homeowners that didnt want to rebuild and risk it happening to them again.. Really, these cities were started centuries ago, if Houston is to blame for people building in a swamp (30+? TX counties on swamp land?) then what about Los Angeles or Seattle or San Fran or any city where there is a potential future disaster? What if climate change is real and many coastal cities face rising seas? Its hard to know what to do or know what the answer/answers are.. Personally, I dont like slab-on-grade homes here at all, too many problems with that kinda foundation imo, especially given that its clay soil.. Any home I would build woild be on piers, which is a much easier fix if there are problems..

To give my opinion on people rebuilding/building in an area where they cant get flood insurance, well, that is a huge risk, not only do they risk losing everything in a flood, if at some point they decided to sell, who would be stupid enough to buy it? Imo, govt shouldnt subsidize rebuilding in those situations... but then, govt has done plenty of stupid things so..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Thanks for posting and the links, tj.
Question, should the government subsidize and help people re-build in an area where they will not be able to get flood insurance?
Also, what is the role of the government in allowing communities such as this to be created, KNOWING there is a risk that this could happen.
Capitalism
Many people were aware that this flooding disaster could happen, and despite that allowed Houston to turn into a concrete jungle.

I am not sure how flood insurance works and I am leary of it and insurance companies, given that Sandy homeowners were ripped off so badly. There is a lot wrong with the way the system is set up & insurance companies get away with way too much.. There are some previously flooded home owners that rebuilt here and Houston told them to get a permit they needed to raise their homes. So some homes were raised the required amount, 4 or 5 feet higher and then this storm happens and they are flooded again, so what the city told them to do still didnt save them from the next bad flood.. some homes have never had flood problems until Harvey , some areas were flooded by 17 or so feet.. so if you want to rebuild, do you raise your house 17+ feet???? that simply doesnt make sense.. I think in some areas the govt bought the property of those homeowners that didnt want to rebuild and risk it happening to them again.. Really, these cities were started centuries ago, if Houston is to blame for people building in a swamp (30+? TX counties on swamp land?) then what about Los Angeles or Seattle or San Fran or any city where there is a potential future disaster? What if climate change is real and many coastal cities face rising seas? Its hard to know what to do or know what the answer/answers are.. Personally, I dont like slab-on-grade homes here at all, too many problems with that kinda foundation imo, especially given that its clay soil.. Any home I would build woild be on piers, which is a much easier fix if there are problems..

To give my opinion on people rebuilding/building in an area where they cant get flood insurance, well, that is a huge risk, not only do they risk losing everything in a flood, if at some point they decided to sell, who would be stupid enough to buy it? Imo, govt shouldnt subsidize rebuilding in those situations... but then, govt has done plenty of stupid things so..

I agree with everything you said, I have no idea what the answer is, or how much assistance the government should provide.
Surely enough to help people survive and get back on their feet.

I have no problem with people buying homes, creating businesses or renting apartments in flood prone area's of the country.
I just hope people that decide to put down roots in these places, are well aware of the risks BEFORE they do so.

It really seems like many people in the Houston area, did not appear to be fully aware of the possibilities of what could happen to them.
I sure as hell, would not chose to live in an area like this, unless I had a great reason to do so, and the "means" to easily start over.
Caveat emptor

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ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Thanks for posting and the links, tj.
Question, should the government subsidize and help people re-build in an area where they will not be able to get flood insurance?
Also, what is the role of the government in allowing communities such as this to be created, KNOWING there is a risk that this could happen.
Capitalism
Many people were aware that this flooding disaster could happen, and despite that allowed Houston to turn into a concrete jungle.

I am not sure how flood insurance works and I am leary of it and insurance companies, given that Sandy homeowners were ripped off so badly. There is a lot wrong with the way the system is set up & insurance companies get away with way too much.. There are some previously flooded home owners that rebuilt here and Houston told them to get a permit they needed to raise their homes. So some homes were raised the required amount, 4 or 5 feet higher and then this storm happens and they are flooded again, so what the city told them to do still didnt save them from the next bad flood.. some homes have never had flood problems until Harvey , some areas were flooded by 17 or so feet.. so if you want to rebuild, do you raise your house 17+ feet???? that simply doesnt make sense.. I think in some areas the govt bought the property of those homeowners that didnt want to rebuild and risk it happening to them again.. Really, these cities were started centuries ago, if Houston is to blame for people building in a swamp (30+? TX counties on swamp land?) then what about Los Angeles or Seattle or San Fran or any city where there is a potential future disaster? What if climate change is real and many coastal cities face rising seas? Its hard to know what to do or know what the answer/answers are.. Personally, I dont like slab-on-grade homes here at all, too many problems with that kinda foundation imo, especially given that its clay soil.. Any home I would build woild be on piers, which is a much easier fix if there are problems..

To give my opinion on people rebuilding/building in an area where they cant get flood insurance, well, that is a huge risk, not only do they risk losing everything in a flood, if at some point they decided to sell, who would be stupid enough to buy it? Imo, govt shouldnt subsidize rebuilding in those situations... but then, govt has done plenty of stupid things so..

I agree with everything you said, I have no idea what the answer is, or how much assistance the government should provide.
Surely enough to help people survive and get back on their feet.

I have no problem with people buying homes, creating businesses or renting apartments in flood prone area's of the country.
I just hope people that decide to put down roots in these places, are well aware of the risks BEFORE they do so.

It really seems like many people in the Houston area, did not appear to be fully aware of the possibilities of what could happen to them.
I sure as hell, would not chose to live in an area like this, unless I had a great reason to do so, and the "means" to easily start over.
Caveat emptor

Caveat emptor when it comes to picking insurance companies too... Anyone with flood insurance (or planning to buy flood insurance) should check what insurance company they are dealing with.. WRIGHT FLOOD.. remember that name and run as far and fast away from them as you can.. Here is a link to a 60 Minutes segment from 2015 on how WRIGHT FLOOD (the largest flood insurer) screwed over Sandy claimants by altering engineering reports to say there was no structural damage.. its only 14 minutes and you see what kinda despicable POS they are.. & FEMA was in on it at that time as well...

https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/the-storm-after-the-storm/

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Thanks for posting and the links, tj.
Question, should the government subsidize and help people re-build in an area where they will not be able to get flood insurance?
Also, what is the role of the government in allowing communities such as this to be created, KNOWING there is a risk that this could happen.
Capitalism
Many people were aware that this flooding disaster could happen, and despite that allowed Houston to turn into a concrete jungle.

I am not sure how flood insurance works and I am leary of it and insurance companies, given that Sandy homeowners were ripped off so badly. There is a lot wrong with the way the system is set up & insurance companies get away with way too much.. There are some previously flooded home owners that rebuilt here and Houston told them to get a permit they needed to raise their homes. So some homes were raised the required amount, 4 or 5 feet higher and then this storm happens and they are flooded again, so what the city told them to do still didnt save them from the next bad flood.. some homes have never had flood problems until Harvey , some areas were flooded by 17 or so feet.. so if you want to rebuild, do you raise your house 17+ feet???? that simply doesnt make sense.. I think in some areas the govt bought the property of those homeowners that didnt want to rebuild and risk it happening to them again.. Really, these cities were started centuries ago, if Houston is to blame for people building in a swamp (30+? TX counties on swamp land?) then what about Los Angeles or Seattle or San Fran or any city where there is a potential future disaster? What if climate change is real and many coastal cities face rising seas? Its hard to know what to do or know what the answer/answers are.. Personally, I dont like slab-on-grade homes here at all, too many problems with that kinda foundation imo, especially given that its clay soil.. Any home I would build woild be on piers, which is a much easier fix if there are problems..

To give my opinion on people rebuilding/building in an area where they cant get flood insurance, well, that is a huge risk, not only do they risk losing everything in a flood, if at some point they decided to sell, who would be stupid enough to buy it? Imo, govt shouldnt subsidize rebuilding in those situations... but then, govt has done plenty of stupid things so..

I agree with everything you said, I have no idea what the answer is, or how much assistance the government should provide.
Surely enough to help people survive and get back on their feet.

I have no problem with people buying homes, creating businesses or renting apartments in flood prone area's of the country.
I just hope people that decide to put down roots in these places, are well aware of the risks BEFORE they do so.

It really seems like many people in the Houston area, did not appear to be fully aware of the possibilities of what could happen to them.
I sure as hell, would not chose to live in an area like this, unless I had a great reason to do so, and the "means" to easily start over.
Caveat emptor

Caveat emptor when it comes to picking insurance companies too... Anyone with flood insurance (or planning to buy flood insurance) should check what insurance company they are dealing with.. WRIGHT FLOOD.. remember that name and run as far and fast away from them as you can.. Here is a link to a 60 Minutes segment from 2015 on how WRIGHT FLOOD (the largest flood insurer) screwed over Sandy claimants by altering engineering reports to say there was no structural damage.. its only 14 minutes and you see what kinda despicable POS they are.. & FEMA was in on it at that time as well...

https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/the-storm-after-the-storm/

Here's a hint.
Purchase your flood insurance and wind insurance (if applicable) from the same company you purchase your homeowner's insurance.
That way, there will be no squabbling between insurance companies about who pays how much for what because claims are typically split depending on what caused the damage. Flood insurance ONLY pays damages due to rising water. Wind storm insurance ONLY pays for wind damage.
Can you folks see who might get screwed during the squabbling? Hint: It won't be an insurance company.
That advice served me very well after Andrew.

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ORIGINAL: tj444

That sounds like good advice but... how do you know if the insurance company you deal with outsources the flood insurance (or does that at a later time)? and if they do, what happens then? With Sandy, why didnt their regular home insurance policy pay up since Wright didnt?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

That sounds like good advice but... how do you know if the insurance company you deal with outsources the flood insurance (or does that at a later time)? and if they do, what happens then? With Sandy, why didnt their regular home insurance policy pay up since Wright didnt?

They can outsource if they want but the contract still has their name on it.
As for homeowner's policies not paying when Wright didn't, that's exactly what I was talking about re: squabbling between companies and the homeowner getting screwed.
The homeowner's policy doesn't have to pay for damages due to rising water. If the flood insurance company doesn't, screw you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Made2Obey

In Myrtle Beach, SC I have seen a fairly simple yet elegant solution for this used on beachfront homes in the Cherry Point part of the area.
The house is built on stilts and is about 1-1/2 stories above the ground. The stilts are driven unusually deep to withstand a storm surge.
Then the area below the house is enclosed and used as a garage or storage area. The trick is that the ground floor walls are all attached to the stilts in a manner that allows them to easily break away. Even the staircase leading up to the living area of the house is designed to break away easily without doing damage to the house.
If a storm surge happens the ground level can be carried off by a wave and leave the occupied part of the home entirely intact. Plumbing and electricity are run through the stilts and are also left intact. After the flooding recedes a rope ladder allows exit from the house until a new stairway can be built. Repairing a house built in this manner is also quick and cheap. Just bolt some new plywood panels around the ground floor and paint them. If it's well done the house doesn't appear to be on stilts from the outside unless you know what to look for.

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ORIGINAL: MercTech

On houses on stilts....

Dateline early 1660s, Location: Pearl River flood plane east of LeFleur's Bluff (That is what is on the Corps of Engineers Map, the road map says Flowood, MS and Pearl, MS)

The houses outside of the two small towns all were built up 12-20 feet off the ground. Every spring it flooded. People parked cars along the roadway and took their boat to the house. The flooding would be for 2-6 weeks every spring. I remember one restaurant, Jack's Tamales, had a nifty barrel bridge from the road to the restaurant. I remember being disappointed as a pre-schooler when we went for tamales and the barrel bridge was sitting on the ground. 10 cents each or a dozen for a dollar. And mason jars with anything possible to be pickled for sale there. Who knew pickled radishes with garlic were to die for?

The Ross Barnett Reservoir was finished in the late 60s and the annual flood went to be "a little flooding maybe with an exceptional run off". Hmm, there was a big influx of buying up the flood plane. Then, enough newcomers moving in that they got the building code changed to allow cheaper slab foundation homes to be built.

These days, the residents of the Pearl River Flood Plane are lobbying the state government to create a multi billion dollar flood control system as the homes out there have been flooded three times in the last 30 years. The state engineers report opposes the plan as not cost effective and recommends homes on the flood plane be built on 12-20 ft high pilings.

Go figure...

________________________________________________
Trump isn't a scientist and has crap people feeding him pseudo science. So did Obama.
If you want a proof that a micro climate can have man made changes, just check mean air temperatures over urban areas compared to forested areas in the same vicinity.
Global warming due to fossil fuel usage has been known since the late 1960s and the NOAA ocean temperature data up through 2000 was spot on with the predicted change (within 5% of prediction). The doom and gloom grant farm predictions that drove the Paris Accords are mostly hooey though.

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ORIGINAL: tj444

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

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ORIGINAL: tj444

That sounds like good advice but... how do you know if the insurance company you deal with outsources the flood insurance (or does that at a later time)? and if they do, what happens then? With Sandy, why didnt their regular home insurance policy pay up since Wright didnt?

They can outsource if they want but the contract still has their name on it.
As for homeowner's policies not paying when Wright didn't, that's exactly what I was talking about re: squabbling between companies and the homeowner getting screwed.
The homeowner's policy doesn't have to pay for damages due to rising water. If the flood insurance company doesn't, screw you.

And people wonder why only 15% bother with flood insurance? When you figure out how to counteract the insurance companies' scams, they find a new way to scam you...

The bottom line with Sandy was that WRIGHT FLOOD falsified engineer reports to scam the homeowners out of what they paid insurance for... if you listen to the 60 Minutes interview of the engineer, they falsified 96% of his reports (the other 4% that they didnt falsify/alter were ones where no repair was needed)... that is disgusting!!! and I expect they did the same thing with Katrina homeowners.. No wonder WRIGHT FLOOD, according to "A.M. Best rated as A- (Excellent) for our financial strength", they dont pay out any money!.. Reading how great they proclaim to be (blah, blah, blah) on their website makes me feel like puking..

http://www.wrightflood.com/about.html

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ORIGINAL: Marini

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ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

That sounds like good advice but... how do you know if the insurance company you deal with outsources the flood insurance (or does that at a later time)? and if they do, what happens then? With Sandy, why didnt their regular home insurance policy pay up since Wright didnt?

They can outsource if they want but the contract still has their name on it.
As for homeowner's policies not paying when Wright didn't, that's exactly what I was talking about re: squabbling between companies and the homeowner getting screwed.
The homeowner's policy doesn't have to pay for damages due to rising water. If the flood insurance company doesn't, screw you.

And people wonder why only 15% bother with flood insurance? When you figure out how to counteract the insurance companies' scams, they find a new way to scam you...

The bottom line with Sandy was that WRIGHT FLOOD falsified engineer reports to scam the homeowners out of what they paid insurance for... if you listen to the 60 Minutes interview of the engineer, they falsified 96% of his reports (the other 4% that they didnt falsify/alter were ones where no repair was needed)... that is disgusting!!! and I expect they did the same thing with Katrina homeowners.. No wonder WRIGHT FLOOD, according to "A.M. Best rated as A- (Excellent) for our financial strength", they dont pay out any money!.. Reading how great they proclaim to be (blah, blah, blah) on their website makes me feel like puking..

http://www.wrightflood.com/about.html

I thought most of the homes in the flooded area's of Houston where uninsurable?

NYT- Most hurricane Harvey homeowners did not have flood insurance

KHOU- How flood insurance works

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ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Question: What is/ or should be the role of federal, state and local governments before, during and after natural disasters?

that is the essential question in pretty much any situation, chronic or acute.

my short answer is the hierarchy looks like this: first and foremost, individuals are responsible for themselves and family. then it moves to friends and neighbors. then the local "community" kicks in, then the state, then the feds.

the emphasis on government providing help or thinking its governments job to help results in personal irresponsibility and complacency in the face of life's requirements.


now, let me save you some time lefties: "I don't care about the poor, the disabled, the indigent, etc." (there, feel better about yourselves now?)

quote:

Religious institutions in America have found themselves increasingly under attack by the left in recent years, with their vicious media regularly piling on. Whether it's going after football coaches for praying on the field after games in the name of separating church and state, attacking houses of worship as bigoted or bankrupting business owners for refusing to give up their religious beliefs, there's been an onslaught.

But according to a report from USA Today, it's faith based organizations that provide the most help to local communities in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters. This includes Hurricane Harvey - which bared down on Texas in the past two weeks, and Hurricane Irma - which just made its way through Florida. Faith based organizations work with FEMA officials, not against or separate from them, to deliver the best response to the most people. FEMA of course is the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which is part of the U.S. government.

quote:

The Convoy of Hope, a non-denominational Christian organization, specializes in feeding. Before Hurricane Irma made landfall in Florida, the Springfield, Mo.,-based Convoy had three trailer trucks stocked with food, water and sanitary supplies parked in the state waiting to deploy to areas hardest hit, said spokesman Jeff Nene. In major disasters, the organization will set up feeding stations, sometimes at FEMA’s request and even using government-provided food and equipment.

The Adventists have agreements with states around the country to provide warehouse services in the event of a disaster.

Over and over again in public comments as Hurricane Harvey was soaking Texas and Louisiana, FEMA administrator Brock Long asked concerned citizens to go to NVOAD.org to make donations – that is National Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster, the alliance of volunteer organizations that are helping FEMA channel disaster assistance into the affected areas. About 75% of the organizations that are part of the alliance are faith-based.

You can read more about the report here, which details the efforts of a number of faith based organizations currently conducting storm relief.