quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka
Unless of course you're white. Then you are responsible for everything your ancesters did.

That one sailed waaaay over their heads.

The "Christian precepts" thing went uncommented on after I put it in a post, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Oh well.

The USA always had a reputation across the world for being loud, brash and sometimes crass ... but nonetheless always big-hearted. This policy isn't big-hearted. This is possibly the nastiest, meanest and most small-minded policy Trump's produced so far. God, how damned ugly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Oh well.

The USA always had a reputation across the world for being loud, brash and sometimes crass ... but nonetheless always big-hearted. This policy isn't big-hearted. This is possibly the nastiest, meanest and most small-minded policy Trump's produced so far. God, how damned ugly.

Because Obama ignored the law and he is fixing it?
Doesn't the law mean anything to you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Oh well.

The USA always had a reputation across the world for being loud, brash and sometimes crass ... but nonetheless always big-hearted. This policy isn't big-hearted. This is possibly the nastiest, meanest and most small-minded policy Trump's produced so far. God, how damned ugly.

Because Obama ignored the law and he is fixing it?
Doesn't the law mean anything to you?

It does, but it means a lot bloody less than the soul of a nation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Then who are we to blame? Do we not deport the kids along with the illegal family members? Are you going to support them being wards of the state and tearing families apart? Of course you're not. You're going to support the idea that "they're here, make 'em legal" which is counter to our immigration laws, isn't it? Send "Dreamers" back along with their illegal parents. Preserve the family!

Wards of the state? For the most part the dreamers are in their 20s and 30s. Some have served in the military. Some are at University. Some have families of their own. All that are working are taxpayers. So, considering them wards of the state just doesn’t fit the reality of their status.

So, now they are of majority age, but are still here illegally. Yep. No crimes being committed there. [8|]

quote:

quote:

It's also fair and just. You're opening every law in the Country up to subjective application. That isn't a nation of laws. That's a nation of discrimination, and not the USA.

A law is not fair and just until it is applied to human life. Then we can make a judgment as to its equity. The law itself is is a dead paragraph in a book. It is the application of the law that determines whether justice is served.
Since you chose to ignore it, I will repeat that it is a bedrock principle of our jurisprudence that children lack agency and they cannot be held responsible in the same way or to the same degree that adults are held responsible. That is the point in which we see whether our immigration laws can be applied with justice.

You just said they are in their 20's and 30's. They are no longer children, and they are still here illegally. They are adults and should be treated thus, right?

Make up your mind, Vincent. Illegal presence is not legal. It's kinda in the name, afterall.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
FR
Oh well.
The USA always had a reputation across the world for being loud, brash and sometimes crass ... but nonetheless always big-hearted. This policy isn't big-hearted. This is possibly the nastiest, meanest and most small-minded policy Trump's produced so far. God, how damned ugly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Then who are we to blame? Do we not deport the kids along with the illegal family members? Are you going to support them being wards of the state and tearing families apart? Of course you're not. You're going to support the idea that "they're here, make 'em legal" which is counter to our immigration laws, isn't it? Send "Dreamers" back along with their illegal parents. Preserve the family!

Wards of the state? For the most part the dreamers are in their 20s and 30s. Some have served in the military. Some are at University. Some have families of their own. All that are working are taxpayers. So, considering them wards of the state just doesn’t fit the reality of their status.

So, now they are of majority age, but are still here illegally. Yep. No crimes being committed there. [8|]

quote:

quote:

It's also fair and just. You're opening every law in the Country up to subjective application. That isn't a nation of laws. That's a nation of discrimination, and not the USA.

A law is not fair and just until it is applied to human life. Then we can make a judgment as to its equity. The law itself is is a dead paragraph in a book. It is the application of the law that determines whether justice is served.
Since you chose to ignore it, I will repeat that it is a bedrock principle of our jurisprudence that children lack agency and they cannot be held responsible in the same way or to the same degree that adults are held responsible. That is the point in which we see whether our immigration laws can be applied with justice.

You just said they are in their 20's and 30's. They are no longer children, and they are still here illegally. They are adults and should be treated thus, right?
Make up your mind, Vincent. Illegal presence is not legal. It's kinda in the name, afterall.

Unless you have a work permit. Under the DACA program the dreamers were given a work pass, a green card, so they were not illegals. If Trump renews the program by Executive Order or if he gets together with the Democrats and like-minded Republicans and puts a bill through into law then these young people will not be illegals. And I know that that will break your rigid ideological heart.
What on earth are these kids doing that offends you so much? I am amazed that you were offended and you did not even know how old these kids were! You are just striking out blindly at foreigners. The nativist streak in American history is alive and well, I’m afraid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Meh, the ball is in Congress' court.
DACA was based on an executive order of questionable authority back in 2012.
If there is really so much support for the concept; it needs to be codified into law with a change to immigration and naturalization statutes.

quote:

"Oh, poo, poo. What did these kids ever do to you?"

quote:

They were brought here illegally. If they have temporary work permits, they are currently legally present, until that work permit expires.

quote:

I'm not striking out blindly at foreigners. I'm supporting immigration legislation. I'm supporting legal immigrants (who are also "foreigners").

quote:

I'm supporting the idea that you should not be allowed to get ahead by flouting our laws. Why don't those who are trying to get in legally matter to you?

quote:

The law is blind. The law does not have a heart. The law is the law.

quote:

Why do you hate the US?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Then who are we to blame? Do we not deport the kids along with the illegal family members? Are you going to support them being wards of the state and tearing families apart? Of course you're not. You're going to support the idea that "they're here, make 'em legal" which is counter to our immigration laws, isn't it? Send "Dreamers" back along with their illegal parents. Preserve the family!

Wards of the state? For the most part the dreamers are in their 20s and 30s. Some have served in the military. Some are at University. Some have families of their own. All that are working are taxpayers. So, considering them wards of the state just doesn’t fit the reality of their status.

So, now they are of majority age, but are still here illegally. Yep. No crimes being committed there. [8|]

quote:

quote:

It's also fair and just. You're opening every law in the Country up to subjective application. That isn't a nation of laws. That's a nation of discrimination, and not the USA.

A law is not fair and just until it is applied to human life. Then we can make a judgment as to its equity. The law itself is is a dead paragraph in a book. It is the application of the law that determines whether justice is served.
Since you chose to ignore it, I will repeat that it is a bedrock principle of our jurisprudence that children lack agency and they cannot be held responsible in the same way or to the same degree that adults are held responsible. That is the point in which we see whether our immigration laws can be applied with justice.

You just said they are in their 20's and 30's. They are no longer children, and they are still here illegally. They are adults and should be treated thus, right?
Make up your mind, Vincent. Illegal presence is not legal. It's kinda in the name, afterall.

Unless you have a work permit. Under the DACA program the dreamers were given a work pass, a green card, so they were not illegals. If Trump renews the program by Executive Order or if he gets together with the Democrats and like-minded Republicans and puts a bill through into law then these young people will not be illegals. And I know that that will break your rigid ideological heart.
What on earth are these kids doing that offends you so much? I am amazed that you were offended and you did not even know how old these kids were! You are just striking out blindly at foreigners. The nativist streak in American history is alive and well, I’m afraid.

"Oh, poo, poo. What did these kids ever do to you?"

They were brought here illegally. If they have temporary work permits, they are currently legally present, until that work permit expires.

I'm not striking out blindly at foreigners. I'm supporting immigration legislation. I'm supporting legal immigrants (who are also "foreigners"). I'm supporting the idea that you should not be allowed to get ahead by flouting our laws. Why don't those who are trying to get in legally matter to you?

The law is blind. The law does not have a heart. The law is the law. Why do you hate the US?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Then who are we to blame? Do we not deport the kids along with the illegal family members? Are you going to support them being wards of the state and tearing families apart? Of course you're not. You're going to support the idea that "they're here, make 'em legal" which is counter to our immigration laws, isn't it? Send "Dreamers" back along with their illegal parents. Preserve the family!

Wards of the state? For the most part the dreamers are in their 20s and 30s. Some have served in the military. Some are at University. Some have families of their own. All that are working are taxpayers. So, considering them wards of the state just doesn’t fit the reality of their status.

So, now they are of majority age, but are still here illegally. Yep. No crimes being committed there. [8|]

quote:

quote:

It's also fair and just. You're opening every law in the Country up to subjective application. That isn't a nation of laws. That's a nation of discrimination, and not the USA.

A law is not fair and just until it is applied to human life. Then we can make a judgment as to its equity. The law itself is is a dead paragraph in a book. It is the application of the law that determines whether justice is served.
Since you chose to ignore it, I will repeat that it is a bedrock principle of our jurisprudence that children lack agency and they cannot be held responsible in the same way or to the same degree that adults are held responsible. That is the point in which we see whether our immigration laws can be applied with justice.

You just said they are in their 20's and 30's. They are no longer children, and they are still here illegally. They are adults and should be treated thus, right?
Make up your mind, Vincent. Illegal presence is not legal. It's kinda in the name, afterall.

Unless you have a work permit. Under the DACA program the dreamers were given a work pass, a green card, so they were not illegals. If Trump renews the program by Executive Order or if he gets together with the Democrats and like-minded Republicans and puts a bill through into law then these young people will not be illegals. And I know that that will break your rigid ideological heart.
What on earth are these kids doing that offends you so much? I am amazed that you were offended and you did not even know how old these kids were! You are just striking out blindly at foreigners. The nativist streak in American history is alive and well, I’m afraid.

"Oh, poo, poo. What did these kids ever do to you?"

They were brought here illegally. If they have temporary work permits, they are currently legally present, until that work permit expires.

I'm not striking out blindly at foreigners. I'm supporting immigration legislation. I'm supporting legal immigrants (who are also "foreigners"). I'm supporting the idea that you should not be allowed to get ahead by flouting our laws. Why don't those who are trying to get in legally matter to you?

The law is blind. The law does not have a heart. The law is the law. Why do you hate the US?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Oh well.

The USA always had a reputation across the world for being loud, brash and sometimes crass ... but nonetheless always big-hearted. This policy isn't big-hearted. This is possibly the nastiest, meanest and most small-minded policy Trump's produced so far. God, how damned ugly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

"Oh, poo, poo. What did these kids ever do to you?"

The dreamers make up less than 1% of the total number of illegal immigrants in the United States. And yet you seem to be in inordinately fixated upon the small group of immigrants. Why aren’t you concerned about the other 99%?

quote:

They were brought here illegally. If they have temporary work permits, they are currently legally present, until that work permit expires.

As long as the program is in effect the dreamers receive their temporary work permits every two years. The work permit does not expire. It is renewable.

quote:

I'm not striking out blindly at foreigners. I'm supporting immigration legislation. I'm supporting legal immigrants (who are also "foreigners").

I think you are striking out blindly at foreigners that you can identify. How are you supporting legal immigrants? The presence of the dreamers here in the United States does not subtract from any of the quotas in the various categories of eligibility for legal immigrants. Your lashing out at these young people does absolutely nothing for people who are applying for legal immigration. I read the different categories. I don’t see anywhere that legal immigrants are impacted by the presence of the dreamers. There is just no way you can justify your position. The children were brought here illegally by their parents. They were minors under the law when they arrived here. Therefore, they have no culpability. You cannot make a minor responsible for what his parents did.

quote:

I'm supporting the idea that you should not be allowed to get ahead by flouting our laws. Why don't those who are trying to get in legally matter to you?

Oh, poo, poo! There is not an area in our society where people do not get ahead by flouting our laws. Christ! You are not that much of an innocent, are you?

You say the people who are trying to get in legally do not matter to me. I never said that nor did I imply that they don’t matter. You are drawing a false equivalence between legal immigrants and the dreamers. One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.

quote:

The law is blind. The law does not have a heart. The law is the law.

The law is blind only in an extreme ideological sense. As I said earlier, when it comes time to apply the law it can no longer be blind. Otherwise we would not need judges or juries. All that would be needed is some clerk to read the law and assess guilt. Those are the unintended consequences of the extreme ideological position that you take. Ask any judge or lawyer if the law is not in fact an organic structure when it enters into the lives of people. I feel pretty certain they will tell you that justice requires the consideration of mercy. By itself the law is not justice. That is a dimension that only humans can bring into the courtroom.

quote:

Why do you hate the US?

Oh really you are too funny! [sm=happy-smiley58.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

"Oh, poo, poo. What did these kids ever do to you?"

The dreamers make up less than 1% of the total number of illegal immigrants in the United States. And yet you seem to be in inordinately fixated upon the small group of immigrants. Why aren’t you concerned about the other 99%?

quote:

quote:

They were brought here illegally. If they have temporary work permits, they are currently legally present, until that work permit expires.

As long as the program is in effect the dreamers receive their temporary work permits every two years. The work permit does not expire. It is renewable.

quote:

quote:

I'm not striking out blindly at foreigners. I'm supporting immigration legislation. I'm supporting legal immigrants (who are also "foreigners").

I think you are striking out blindly at foreigners that you can identify. How are you supporting legal immigrants? The presence of the dreamers here in the United States does not subtract from any of the quotas in the various categories of eligibility for legal immigrants. Your lashing out at these young people does absolutely nothing for people who are applying for legal immigration. I read the different categories. I don’t see anywhere that legal immigrants are impacted by the presence of the dreamers. There is just no way you can justify your position. The children were brought here illegally by their parents. They were minors under the law when they arrived here. Therefore, they have no culpability. You cannot make a minor responsible for what his parents did.

quote:

quote:

I'm supporting the idea that you should not be allowed to get ahead by flouting our laws. Why don't those who are trying to get in legally matter to you?

Oh, poo, poo! There is not an area in our society where people do not get ahead by flouting our laws. Christ! You are not that much of an innocent, are you?
You say the people who are trying to get in legally do not matter to me. I never said that nor did I imply that they don’t matter. You are drawing a false equivalence between legal immigrants and the dreamers. One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.

quote:

quote:

The law is blind. The law does not have a heart. The law is the law.

The law is blind only in an extreme ideological sense. As I said earlier, when it comes time to apply the law it can no longer be blind. Otherwise we would not need judges or juries. All that would be needed is some clerk to read the law and assess guilt. Those are the unintended consequences of the extreme ideological position that you take. Ask any judge or lawyer if the law is not in fact an organic structure when it enters into the lives of people. I feel pretty certain they will tell you that justice requires the consideration of mercy. By itself the law is not justice. That is a dimension that only humans can bring into the courtroom.

quote:

quote:

Why do you hate the US?

Oh really you are too funny! [sm=happy-smiley58.gif]