RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now

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Nnanji -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 9:39:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 I don't disagree that it doesn't look good from the photo but it doesn't show everything and what it does show is not three dimensional. if I am a counter-sniper, I could only make the final decision concerning effectiveness from being on the ground and being able to see the whole scene. as distances increase from a potential target, the need for elevation decreases and snipers have killed people up to 1.5 miles away. it will be interesting to see what precautions future concert promoters take. You're forgetting that a bullet travels in a parabolic arch. The sniper firing from a window high up will have his bullet traveling in a straight line as it leaves the muzzle but it begins to drop at a more severe angle as it slows over distance. The bullet actually drops at the same speed, 32 feet per second squared, but the relative drop compared to the forward speed of the bullet increases as the bullet slows. The snipe can shoot out in a straight line having calculated the drop, or just watch for "splash". However shooting back at the sniper in the window is more difficult because the incoming bullet is falling very quickly in relation to its forward speed. A scoped rifle shooting a .223 is generally set up to zero at 100 or 200 yards. Say it's set up to zero at 100 yards, then that bullet will be about 3-inches low at 200 yards. An apparent drop of 3-inches in 200 yards. But then, that same bullet will have dropped to 32-inches low at 400 yards. So the bullet, in effect has dropped about two and a half feet in the second 200-yards. Someone shooting at the sniper, even if at the same elevation, sees his bullet dropping at an apparent 8-feet per second on the parabolic curve. Then, all the sniper has to do is wiggle back away from the window a few feet which won't affect his shot in the least but the counter sniper will be trying to drop his bullets onto the sniper through the floor above. Second, as the .223 bullet will only have about the energy left, at that range, of a .38 special, if the sniper constructs a box of simple 2x4's above him even if the counter sniper doesn't have to drop a bullet in on him through the floor above the sniper will still be safe from incoming rounds. The Marine snipers in Mogadishu Smallia used to build such a box with sandbags on the roof of the American compound and shoot skinnies off the roofs of buildings surrounding the compound with complete impunity from return fire. As the LV shooter seems to have built shooting platforms it's not unreasonable to assume a simple box on top the platform couldn't also be constructed. Of course, a simple heavy coffee table set on the shooting platform, maybe with a few couch pillows and a mattress on top it would most likely do the trick. Most professional snipers will shoot from way back in the room where a return bullet just couldn't reach them because of the bullet drop.

Dvr22999874 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 9:40:42 PM)
You have to remember though that if there had been no guns, the Brits wouldn't have had them either and the war would still be going with both sides shouting rude words at the other or occaissionally throwing a rock or a spit-ball. The Aative Americans would have erected bleachers and charged admission to watch the fun. Yeah, yeah, I have a ridiculous sense of humour . That's what they told me in the funny farm !!!

BamaD -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 9:43:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 I don't disagree that it doesn't look good from the photo but it doesn't show everything and what it does show is not three dimensional. if I am a counter-sniper, I could only make the final decision concerning effectiveness from being on the ground and being able to see the whole scene. as distances increase from a potential target, the need for elevation decreases and snipers have killed people up to 1.5 miles away. it will be interesting to see what precautions future concert promoters take. You're forgetting that a bullet travels in a parabolic arch. The sniper firing from a window high up will have his bullet traveling in a straight line as it leaves the muzzle but it begins to drop at a more severe angle as it slows over distance. The bullet actually drops at the same speed, 32 feet per second squared, but the relative drop compared to the forward speed of the bullet increases as the bullet slows. The snipe can shoot out in a straight line having calculated the drop, or just watch for "splash". However shooting back at the sniper in the window is more difficult because the incoming bullet is falling very quickly in relation to its forward speed. A scoped rifle shooting a .223 is generally set up to zero at 100 or 200 yards. Say it's set up to zero at 100 yards, then that bullet will be about 3-inches low at 200 yards. An apparent drop of 3-inches in 200 yards. But then, that same bullet will have dropped to 32-inches low at 400 yards. So the bullet, in effect has dropped about two and a half feet in the second 200-yards. Someone shooting at the sniper, even if at the same elevation, sees his bullet dropping at an apparent 8-feet per second on the parabolic curve. Then, all the sniper has to do is wiggle back away from the window a few feet which won't affect his shot in the least but the counter sniper will be trying to drop his bullets onto the sniper through the floor above. Second, as the .223 bullet will only have about the energy left, at that range, of a .38 special, if the sniper constructs a box of simple 2x4's above him even if the counter sniper doesn't have to drop a bullet in on him through the floor above the sniper will still be safe from incoming rounds. The Marine snipers in Mogadishu Smallia used to build such a box with sandbags on the roof of the American compound and shoot skinnies off the roofs of buildings surrounding the compound with complete impunity from return fire. As the LV shooter seems to have built shooting platforms it's not unreasonable to assume a simple box on top the platform couldn't also be constructed. Of course, a simple heavy coffee table set on the shooting platform, maybe with a few couch pillows and a mattress on top it would most likely do the trick. Most professional snipers will shoot from way back in the room where a return bullet just couldn't reach them because of the bullet drop. That is why most true snipers use a bigger round.

HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 9:51:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874 You have to remember though that if there had been no guns, the Brits wouldn't have had them either and the war would still be going with both sides shouting rude words at the other or occaissionally throwing a rock or a spit-ball. The Aative Americans would have erected bleachers and charged admission to watch the fun. Yeah, yeah, I have a ridiculous sense of humour . That's what they told me in the funny farm !!! Or if the US had been like most countries, where only the police and the army are allowed guns, then the Redcoats would have slaughtered the citizens en masse.

jlf1961 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 9:54:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Do you have a fire extinguisher ? Does that prove That you live in constant fear of a fire? How can you live like that? Fire extinguisher is like tap water though. The danger level of having one is no where close to a gun. i mean, if a 3 yr old got hold of a fully loaded mini gun, versus some mini fire extinguisher. Which one would I freak out more? When trying to disarm the 3 yr old? Chances are, the 3 yr old could pull the trigger at me innocently, before I can stop him. Whereas if he sprays fire extinguishing stuffs at me, it's like, okay little boy, give that back to me! Whatever! Greta a mini gun looks like this: [image]https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Minigun_2.JPG[/image] And fires 6000 rounds a minute. But I think I understand your point, so, let me explain what I consider responsible gun storage. I own, all told, 32 firearms. Of that number, only 14 would be considered modern, the rest are working replicas of the guns you see in the westerns, referred to as 'cowboy shooters.' And then I have two flint locks, figure the Napoleonic wars for a good reference. Now, each gun safe that I store my guns in require two keys and a combination. Each ammo storage box, one for bulk ammo, one for loaded magazines also require two keys. I changed from a loaded .45ACP 1911 colt to a rabbit ear coach gun (old west style shot gun) loaded with rock salt in case anyone dared to break in with all our dogs, who bark if anyone even walks up to the door. Now, admittedly the rock salt is not going to be fatal, but if you ever got salt in an open wound accidentally, you know how bad it burns, and getting a double load from a 12 gauge is going to make that feel really nice in comparison. I am the only one in the house who can reach the loaded shotgun. And all this because I have a five year old great nephew living in the house. Now, as a responsible gun owner, I have always told him never to point even a toy gun at any animal or person. For his birthday, I got him a daisy bb gun, and I work with him two or three times a week on both shooting and gun safety. He does not shoot it without an adult, he wears safety glasses (you know how hard it is to find shooting glasses for a five year old) and that bb gun barely has enough power to punch a hole in an aluminum can. He already knows that the barrel is either pointed up or down, never in any other direction unless he is shooting at a target. He has even started to remind everyone to make sure the bb's are out and the gun is unloaded before it goes back in the house. Back in July, he began insisting the bb gun go into one of the gun safes on his own. Admittedly I never thought of making that a rule. He goes to the range with me about once a month, the observation gallery is 15 feet behind the firing line with a cement wall and ballistic glass, so there is no way he can get to my firing position, and the range has employed some local high school kids to watch all children who accompany someone to the range. I have started allowing him to 'inspect' any gun I use at the range to make sure the weapon is unloaded and chamber cleared before we leave. Since I clean my weapons immediately after I am done firing them, there is no danger. I did the same with my son, but unfortunately, as an adult my son is not known for common sense, so I do not allow my 30 year old anywhere near one of my guns, or to go to the range with me, although I have taken my grandson a number of times. I am also kind of thankful my son has no sense on saving money so, unless he hits the lotto, the odds of him buying a gun is slim to none, a fact I am truly grateful for. Now, the point of this ramble is simple. You can not legislate laws to prevent stupidity. So there are some gun owners that leave loaded guns laying around where some kid can get one and accidentally shoot someone or some kid who got pissed off at some one at school can take daddy's or mommy's gun and kill some students. You cannot start early enough teaching firearm safety. And Damian already knows all guns are treated as loaded, even when you just unloaded the weapon and cleared it. And I pray that when both my nephew and grandson are old enough, I can take them hunting with me, using a gun without fear of some dick head trying to remove them to some gun club or worse. As a responsible gun owner, all I can do is teach to the best of my ability, and hopefully it will stick. As a post note to this, today my niece gave me a cigarette lighter that looks like a flintlock derringer. Give you three guesses as to where it is right now, and even a hint, if I want to light a smoke with it, I got to get the other key from my sister, thanks to Damian.

Dvr22999874 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 9:54:25 PM)
The Pax Brittanica.................they did in a few places. Terrorism then, is the only answer. The idea of terrorism is to terrorise and it's the only way a small country ( population) can overcome a big country. By the way, I love the pic of the B!&. A great warbird. Is it the G or the J ? It looks like the G.

HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 9:58:05 PM)
Technically it's an H model that was reconfigured to a G. Everything works in it too, even the Norden Bombsight. The thing is mission capable at any time.

Dvr22999874 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 10:00:46 PM)
By all the gods, if I go back to the States, I want an invite. I rode a B17 in England when I was a kid. It was on the base at Chicksands just outside London. We flew for about 2 hours and they damn near had to drag me out, kicking and screaming !!! I even volunteered for belly-gun position smile.

Greta75 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 10:02:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Greta a mini gun looks like this: [image]https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Minigun_2.JPG[/image] I expect a mini gun to look like this, perfect for a three year old to handle, with real bullets: [image]http://antiquesicollect.com/images/minirevolver_001.jpg[/image]

Nnanji -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 10:03:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 I don't disagree that it doesn't look good from the photo but it doesn't show everything and what it does show is not three dimensional. if I am a counter-sniper, I could only make the final decision concerning effectiveness from being on the ground and being able to see the whole scene. as distances increase from a potential target, the need for elevation decreases and snipers have killed people up to 1.5 miles away. it will be interesting to see what precautions future concert promoters take. You're forgetting that a bullet travels in a parabolic arch. The sniper firing from a window high up will have his bullet traveling in a straight line as it leaves the muzzle but it begins to drop at a more severe angle as it slows over distance. The bullet actually drops at the same speed, 32 feet per second squared, but the relative drop compared to the forward speed of the bullet increases as the bullet slows. The snipe can shoot out in a straight line having calculated the drop, or just watch for "splash". However shooting back at the sniper in the window is more difficult because the incoming bullet is falling very quickly in relation to its forward speed. A scoped rifle shooting a .223 is generally set up to zero at 100 or 200 yards. Say it's set up to zero at 100 yards, then that bullet will be about 3-inches low at 200 yards. An apparent drop of 3-inches in 200 yards. But then, that same bullet will have dropped to 32-inches low at 400 yards. So the bullet, in effect has dropped about two and a half feet in the second 200-yards. Someone shooting at the sniper, even if at the same elevation, sees his bullet dropping at an apparent 8-feet per second on the parabolic curve. Then, all the sniper has to do is wiggle back away from the window a few feet which won't affect his shot in the least but the counter sniper will be trying to drop his bullets onto the sniper through the floor above. Second, as the .223 bullet will only have about the energy left, at that range, of a .38 special, if the sniper constructs a box of simple 2x4's above him even if the counter sniper doesn't have to drop a bullet in on him through the floor above the sniper will still be safe from incoming rounds. The Marine snipers in Mogadishu Smallia used to build such a box with sandbags on the roof of the American compound and shoot skinnies off the roofs of buildings surrounding the compound with complete impunity from return fire. As the LV shooter seems to have built shooting platforms it's not unreasonable to assume a simple box on top the platform couldn't also be constructed. Of course, a simple heavy coffee table set on the shooting platform, maybe with a few couch pillows and a mattress on top it would most likely do the trick. Most professional snipers will shoot from way back in the room where a return bullet just couldn't reach them because of the bullet drop. That is why most true snipers use a bigger round. Gravity affects a larger round just the same as a smaller round. A .308 is leaving a barrel at about 300 fps slower than a .223 so the actual drop would be more pronounced. You have to go to a .300 Win Mag to get a .308 bullet at the same velocity as a .223. The .50 is about the same velocity as a .308 and the only reason they are effective at such long ranges is because the projectile is so large the shear size retains a lot of energy at long distances. But that 1.5 mile shot mentioned earlier, with a .50 has to be aimed 254-feet high to make the shot and the bullet drops 125-feet in the last 200-yards. Not an easy shot to make without a good range finder and wind meter.

jlf1961 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 10:06:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 I don't disagree that it doesn't look good from the photo but it doesn't show everything and what it does show is not three dimensional. if I am a counter-sniper, I could only make the final decision concerning effectiveness from being on the ground and being able to see the whole scene. as distances increase from a potential target, the need for elevation decreases and snipers have killed people up to 1.5 miles away. it will be interesting to see what precautions future concert promoters take. Not to start an argument, but the shooter in vegas used an old trick. He sat up a shooting position to allow him to see his target area, but was far enough back in the room to keep the muzzle flash from being seen. The only real clue as to his location was the two broken windows, and even then, from some statements, he alternated between those. The only way counter sniping would have worked is if someone were at the same elevation and could see into the room. Of course, he could have seen that trick on an episode of Bones or NCIS.

jlf1961 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 10:08:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 I expect a mini gun to look like this, perfect for a three year old to handle, with real bullets: [image]http://antiquesicollect.com/images/minirevolver_001.jpg[/image] Correct on size reference, but the actual name for that type is a 'purse gun.' But I get your point, there .32's that are little larger than a child's toy, to be honest.

HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 10:15:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Greta a mini gun looks like this: [image]https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Minigun_2.JPG[/image] I expect a mini gun to look like this, perfect for a three year old to handle, with real bullets: [image]http://antiquesicollect.com/images/minirevolver_001.jpg[/image] Or a real mini gun... [image]https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Baby-Browning-22.jpg[/image]

BamaD -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 10:22:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 I don't disagree that it doesn't look good from the photo but it doesn't show everything and what it does show is not three dimensional. if I am a counter-sniper, I could only make the final decision concerning effectiveness from being on the ground and being able to see the whole scene. as distances increase from a potential target, the need for elevation decreases and snipers have killed people up to 1.5 miles away. it will be interesting to see what precautions future concert promoters take. You're forgetting that a bullet travels in a parabolic arch. The sniper firing from a window high up will have his bullet traveling in a straight line as it leaves the muzzle but it begins to drop at a more severe angle as it slows over distance. The bullet actually drops at the same speed, 32 feet per second squared, but the relative drop compared to the forward speed of the bullet increases as the bullet slows. The snipe can shoot out in a straight line having calculated the drop, or just watch for "splash". However shooting back at the sniper in the window is more difficult because the incoming bullet is falling very quickly in relation to its forward speed. A scoped rifle shooting a .223 is generally set up to zero at 100 or 200 yards. Say it's set up to zero at 100 yards, then that bullet will be about 3-inches low at 200 yards. An apparent drop of 3-inches in 200 yards. But then, that same bullet will have dropped to 32-inches low at 400 yards. So the bullet, in effect has dropped about two and a half feet in the second 200-yards. Someone shooting at the sniper, even if at the same elevation, sees his bullet dropping at an apparent 8-feet per second on the parabolic curve. Then, all the sniper has to do is wiggle back away from the window a few feet which won't affect his shot in the least but the counter sniper will be trying to drop his bullets onto the sniper through the floor above. Second, as the .223 bullet will only have about the energy left, at that range, of a .38 special, if the sniper constructs a box of simple 2x4's above him even if the counter sniper doesn't have to drop a bullet in on him through the floor above the sniper will still be safe from incoming rounds. The Marine snipers in Mogadishu Smallia used to build such a box with sandbags on the roof of the American compound and shoot skinnies off the roofs of buildings surrounding the compound with complete impunity from return fire. As the LV shooter seems to have built shooting platforms it's not unreasonable to assume a simple box on top the platform couldn't also be constructed. Of course, a simple heavy coffee table set on the shooting platform, maybe with a few couch pillows and a mattress on top it would most likely do the trick. Most professional snipers will shoot from way back in the room where a return bullet just couldn't reach them because of the bullet drop. That is why most true snipers use a bigger round. Gravity affects a larger round just the same as a smaller round. A .308 is leaving a barrel at about 300 fps slower than a .223 so the actual drop would be more pronounced. You have to go to a .300 Win Mag to get a .308 bullet at the same velocity as a .223. The .50 is about the same velocity as a .308 and the only reason they are effective at such long ranges is because the projectile is so large the shear size retains a lot of energy at long distances. But that 1.5 mile shot mentioned earlier, with a .50 has to be aimed 254-feet high to make the shot and the bullet drops 125-feet in the last 200-yards. Not an easy shot to make without a good range finder and wind meter. I am aware of that, it explains why they use even bigger rounds like the .50

jlf1961 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 10:52:42 PM)
Nnanji you got the rise correct, buy you forgot to figure for wind and the ballistic spin of the bullet, which will cause the bullet to actually begin to travel in a horizontal arc as well at long distances. If you would like, I can find the tables for you and post the link. Its a real bitch of a math problem, or more accurately, a physics problem, which is why some years ago, the US military started issuing specialized calculators for spotters in sniper teams. here is the online version. and you can get an app for a smart phone, tablet or laptop that does it all.

Greta75 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/9/2017 11:50:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind Or a real mini gun... The mini gun I posted may look like a key chain toy gun. But it's supposed to be legit operational with real bullets that works! Just looks old school. So it was real too!

bounty44 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/10/2017 3:51:16 AM)
though the quantitative part of it was not my strong suit, I taught biomechanics, so I have some sense of the difficulty involved in shooting accurately from ever increasing distances but the point of my replies to jv wasn't to say it was an easy peasy thing, rather just to say that the photograph of the scene doesn't capture all the possibilities.

jlf1961 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/10/2017 5:05:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 though the quantitative part of it was not my strong suit, I taught biomechanics, so I have some sense of the difficulty involved in shooting accurately from ever increasing distances but the point of my replies to jv wasn't to say it was an easy peasy thing, rather just to say that the photograph of the scene doesn't capture all the possibilities. the photos of the scene that have been released does not capture anything except that he was armed to the teeth. However, the police statements seem to indicate that they believe he planned to escape, with no clear indication as to how they know. But, if he did plan to escape, why? The room was in his name, so it is not like they would not know who got the room in the first place.

WhoreMods -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/10/2017 5:15:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 In the context of my country. We ban cars that we feel are too dangerous. So many of those high powered cars in the US are not allowed on the road here. We ban medicine or make it very difficult to get hold of without strict criteria and prescription from beyond just general practitioners. They may need specialists. Many off the shelves medicine in the US are not legal here off the shelves too. Technically, we do apply everything fairly. Not attacking only guns. The US bans cars that do not meet standards, or are too powerful for the American idiots with more money than brains. Also you register cars, and require a license to own one. It's strange how all of the second amendment fundamentalists who've used the daesh automotive attacks elsewhere to "prove" that gun control doesn't prevent deaths are cool with cars and trucks being regulated like that, but think it's appalling that attempts are made to do the same with firearms.

jlf1961 -> RE: Las Vegas shooting unfolding now (10/10/2017 5:25:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 In the context of my country. We ban cars that we feel are too dangerous. So many of those high powered cars in the US are not allowed on the road here. We ban medicine or make it very difficult to get hold of without strict criteria and prescription from beyond just general practitioners. They may need specialists. Many off the shelves medicine in the US are not legal here off the shelves too. Technically, we do apply everything fairly. Not attacking only guns. The US bans cars that do not meet standards, or are too powerful for the American idiots with more money than brains. Also you register cars, and require a license to own one. It's strange how all of the second amendment fundamentalists who've used the daesh automotive attacks elsewhere to "prove" that gun control doesn't prevent deaths are cool with cars and trucks being regulated like that, but think it's appalling that attempts are made to do the same with firearms. You will find that the majority of gun owners, in many states, already have to register firearms in some form.

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