RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow

RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (Full Version)

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Nnanji -> RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (10/30/2017 5:27:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub tweakabelle you should understand that our starting point of view determines how we look at facts. We can arrive at different conclusions by assigning more or less weight to the facts and more than one result can be valid. Very seldom do I agree with the likes of Bosco but I can understand how he arrives at his conclusions... sometimes...lol Butch If the "facts" are interpreted differently are they really true facts? Sure. Let's say for example during a trial both sides have expert witnesses coming to different conclusions. It happens all the time.

kdsub -> RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (10/30/2017 5:32:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub tweakabelle you should understand that our starting point of view determines how we look at facts. We can arrive at different conclusions by assigning more or less weight to the facts and more than one result can be valid. Very seldom do I agree with the likes of Bosco but I can understand how he arrives at his conclusions... sometimes...lol Butch If the "facts" are interpreted differently are they really true facts? Yes they are... just take the many debates on guns.. the fact... guns kill children... I look at it that way but bama looks at it as guns are necessary for defense... You and I look at police procedures very differently... the procedures are facts but we certainly look at them from a different point of view and arrive at different conclusions. It is hard for us to see the opposing point of view but it is there and it is valid. Butch

tweakabelle -> RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (10/31/2017 4:39:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub tweakabelle you should understand that our starting point of view determines how we look at facts. We can arrive at different conclusions by assigning more or less weight to the facts and more than one result can be valid. Very seldom do I agree with the likes of Bosco but I can understand how he arrives at his conclusions... sometimes...lol Butch If the "facts" are interpreted differently are they really true facts? What we call "facts" are items of general agreement or consensus that are the products of interpreting data through perception and certain forms and structures of thinking/analytic modes, that are then said to describe 'reality'. Human perception, cultural and ideological bias, langauge, personal and cultural experiences and a vast array of interests, needs and desires are all at play during these processes, selecting the data to be processed, influencing the manner in which it is processed and therefore the conclusions of those processes. Perhaps rather than using the term "fact(s)" at all, might it be preferable to agree that it is all interpetation(s)? And when considering whether it might be preferable or not, one ought to keep in mind that in doing so, we are ourselves engaging in a process of determining what a "fact" might or might not be ....

vincentML -> RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (10/31/2017 1:59:39 PM)
ORIGINAL: Nnanji ORIGINAL: vincentML ORIGINAL: kdsub ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle tweakabelle you should understand that our starting point of view determines how we look at facts. We can arrive at different conclusions by assigning more or less weight to the facts and more than one result can be valid. Very seldom do I agree with the likes of Bosco but I can understand how he arrives at his conclusions... sometimes...lol Butch [/quote] If the "facts" are interpreted differently are they really true facts? [/quote] Sure. Let's say for example during a trial both sides have expert witnesses coming to different conclusions. It happens all the time. [/quote] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I struggle to agree with you, Nnanji. If the interpretations are different the facts may still be unaltered; only the applications of the immutable facts are different. The outcomes are a reflection of the different filtering processes brought to bear by the "experts" learning and culture. Butch, I can't at all agree that the facts remain true despite our starting points. Our relative positions may change as we examine the event in question. It seems a fallacy to imagine that our modes or positions will remain fixed throughout the process of observation. In some instances I am an inflexible "true believer" and I will bend the light from the observed object to fit my model. Tweake, are there no universal facts? Is everything relative and dependent upon culture? How long will it take a random 13 year old sub-Saharan child to understand the true nature of an AK-47? Doesn't a true, unalterable fact alter the culture of the observer?

JVoV -> RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (10/31/2017 2:48:05 PM)
Is the glass half full or half empty? Yes. Is Obama half black or half white? Yes. Is Schrodenger's cat dead or alive? Yes.

Nnanji -> RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (10/31/2017 3:04:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV Is the glass half full or half empty? Yes. Is Obama half black or half white? Yes. Is Schrodenger's cat dead or alive? Yes. The glass is twice as large as needed.

Nnanji -> RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (10/31/2017 3:26:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub tweakabelle you should understand that our starting point of view determines how we look at facts. We can arrive at different conclusions by assigning more or less weight to the facts and more than one result can be valid. Very seldom do I agree with the likes of Bosco but I can understand how he arrives at his conclusions... sometimes...lol Butch If the "facts" are interpreted differently are they really true facts? What we call "facts" are items of general agreement or consensus that are the products of interpreting data through perception and certain forms and structures of thinking/analytic modes, that are then said to describe 'reality'. Human perception, cultural and ideological bias, langauge, personal and cultural experiences and a vast array of interests, needs and desires are all at play during these processes, selecting the data to be processed, influencing the manner in which it is processed and therefore the conclusions of those processes. Perhaps rather than using the term "fact(s)" at all, might it be preferable to agree that it is all interpetation(s)? And when considering whether it might be preferable or not, one ought to keep in mind that in doing so, we are ourselves engaging in a process of determining what a "fact" might or might not be .... Some time about 300 years before the common era, Mencius said (and this is a very poor translation but I don't want to get up and get a better one): Supposing people see a child fall into a well - they all have a heart-mind that is shocked and sympathetic. It is not for the sake of being on good terms with the child's parents, and it is not for the sake of winning praise for neighbors and friends, nor is it because they dislike the child's noisy cry. If you are, say, Jessica McClure and fall into a well there is no question regarding facts, there is nothing to interpret. If you are the people of midland Texas and you hear about a child that has fallen into a well, there is nothing to interpret, as Mencius noted. If you are a miner who was underground during the August 2010 mining collapse in Chile, there is very little to interpret. If you are an engineer that just designed and built a water purification plant, when you push the start button either the plant works or it does not, as many people in Flint might testify. Your interpretation is BS. Oh sure a lot of current philosophers, feminists, critical race theorists and what not would agree with you, but they are pretty much BS as well.

vincentML -> RE: Two Powerful Men Assail a pregnant young military widow (10/31/2017 5:02:17 PM)
quote: If you are, say, Jessica McClure and fall into a well there is no question regarding facts, there is nothing to interpret. If you are the people of midland Texas and you hear about a child that has fallen into a well, there is nothing to interpret, as Mencius noted. If you are a miner who was underground during the August 2010 mining collapse in Chile, there is very little to interpret. If you are an engineer that just designed and built a water purification plant, when you push the start button either the plant works or it does not, as many people in Flint might testify. Your interpretation is BS. Oh sure a lot of current philosophers, feminists, critical race theorists and what not would agree with you, but they are pretty much BS as well. Don't you see, you have made a value judgment that your interpretation is righteous and superior to any others as soon as you use terms like "feminists" and "critical race theorists." You carry huge bundles of judgments and bring them with you to the scene. Not that you are unique in that respect. You are very much in human mode filtering "objective" events through your own values of good and bad. We all operate in much the same fashion. "The poor deserve to be poor because they are lazy and syphilitic, etc." Perhaps there are no universal truths and all events are judged by flawed human hearts; that's why we have such bitter attitudes toward each other. We have never met but our words and philosophies are loaded antagonisms.

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