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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

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ORIGINAL: Marini

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Sadly my dear until you get the word from the creator itself, man(woman etc) can only opine and point to books.

Great answer Lucy, but there is a way around this, for those that are REALLY confused or concerned.

We all have the RIGHT to refuse medical interventions, that is not suicide, that is letting what will be--be.

As I type this, I am guilty of NOT having MY health care directives in place!!

Legal health care directives allow you to inform medical professionals and family members about what kind of care you want, when you can't communicate those wishes yourself'
That is something, I plan to take care of the near future!!!
Things like : Living will, durable power of attorney for health care, etc.

About 20 years ago, I worked in nursing homes for a couple of years.

Long story short---folks have your health care directives in place.

Personally, I always want pain medication {and lots of it, depending on what is going on}....more morphine please! Thank you.

I also want oxygen, and a few other things.

At this stage of the game, I do not want to be on life support, especially if I am brain damaged.

Back to the OP, we all have the RIGHT to refuse medical treatment/especially invasive or dreadful treatments, I don't consider that suicide- I consider it not fighting
"the transition".

If I am in agony, I am going to get the medical marijuana, the pain meds {the good stuff}, see my friends and loved ones, and go "out" with a smile.
These days, there really is NO need to be in agony, if you have health care.

Many people are medically assisted {slowly or quickly}, and it is NOT considered "suicide".
I have seen people who have stopped eating, and were given morphine to ease the pain, and they increase the dosage---and believe me when you stop eating/REFUSE a feeding tube, and take morphine---you are on your way out.

I saw one lovely senior "go" this way, and she never appeared to be in pain, and was smiling the last time I saw her.

Im happy we now have legal assisted suicide in canada...
Like you I have a history of working in nursing homes, retirement homes, hospice and geriatric care and have no intention of letting my kids have to make decisions that I have seen people go through. I have a living will video, and what should happen should I be unable to communicate.
Suicide, is another subject I know a lot about personally and professionally, I dont like dealing with it, but I cant blame a terminally or chronically sick person for not wanting to suffer any more.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay this is a strictly religious discussion, so bear with me.

Looking at the things one does not do (i.e unforgivable sins, ticket straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars type) in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim faiths, suicide is a very big no no.

With the exception of giving one's life to save another.

And before the anti Muslim group chimes in, I will also add that in the Hadith (that nice book of the prophets sayings extremists use to justify terrorism) there is the following:

The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
— Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446

And the Qur'an is very blunt:

And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."
— Qur'an, Sura 4

While some Muslim clerics will admit that suicidal martyrdom is acceptable in some instances, such as a suicidal charge at the enemy in the face of overwhelming odds and certain death, like the Japanese Banzai charges of WW2, blowing yourself up while surrounded by unarmed people is not one of them.

So, these poor bastards who believed the suicide bullshit has gotten a rude surprise, since according to the prophet, how they killed themselves is exactly how they will spend their eternity in hell.

However, this discussion is centered on a different aspect of suicide.

A person terminally ill and suffering who commits suicide to be free of the pain, are they really committing a mortal sin?

I mean they are going to die, and all they are doing is choosing the time and means of their death.

Would that really be unforgivable?

Would the creator really prefer they spend their remaining time in agony?

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ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
Appalling as it sounds, from a Catholic viewpoint suicide is a mortal sin under any circumstances: there's been an awful lot of blather about it that pretty much boils down to God (in his infinite mercy) offering you a choice between spending the rest of your life, or the rest of eternity in torment, and some of the hereticalhardcore protestant sects take an even dimmer view of it, if that's possible. (To be fair there are other flavours of protestant who take a more accepting view of the matter, but I think the 'suicide is always a mortal sin, no matter what" group are the majority of Christians of any sect.)

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A person terminally ill and suffering who commits suicide to be free of the pain, are they really committing a mortal sin?

I mean they are going to die, and all they are doing is choosing the time and means of their death.

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ORIGINAL: Edwird

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ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
Appalling as it sounds, from a Catholic viewpoint suicide is a mortal sin under any circumstances: there's been an awful lot of blather about it that pretty much boils down to God (in his infinite mercy) offering you a choice between spending the rest of your life, or the rest of eternity in torment, and some of the hereticalhardcore protestant sects take an even dimmer view of it, if that's possible. (To be fair there are other flavours of protestant who take a more accepting view of the matter, but I think the 'suicide is always a mortal sin, no matter what" group are the majority of Christians of any sect.)

I don't care what the Catholic church says, if I were in my last days, immobilized, and had that OP read to me a second time, I'd be stabbing myself desperately after the second word on next go round. Or wishing I could.

Spend 90% of the OP saying "this isn't really about A-rabs or IsLAMists or anything, I'm not talking at all about suicide bombers, even though that's all I'm talking about." So then- "no, really, I'm jus trying to ask about a good honest Christian question about suicide, here."

Yeah, okay.

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Regaining Grace

A person in mortal sin can regain the state of grace before receiving the sacrament of Penance, by making an act of perfect contrition, with the sincere purpose of going to confession.

1. An act of perfect contrition takes away sin immediately. Our sins however grievous are forgiven before we confess them, although the obligation to confess as soon as we can remains.

Thus, if one makes an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, and then dies before being able to go to confession, he is saved from hell by the act he made. Let us remember the penitent thief: "And he said to Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.' And Jesus said to him, 'Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise'" (Luke 23: 40-43).

2. If we have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin, we should ask God's pardon and grace at once, make an act of perfect contrition, and go to confession as soon as we can.

With the act of perfect contrition must be our intention to go to confession as soon as we can. If we die without being able to confess to a priest we shall be saved from hell by our act of perfect contrition.

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Perfect contrition removes the guilt and eternal punishment due to mortal sin, even before the sinner has received absolution in the sacrament of penance, provided that the person has a firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible

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ORIGINAL: bounty44

i think itd be good to find the definitive source on the matter of suicide...

more looking...

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ORIGINAL: servantforuse
As a life long Catholic, I don't remember anything about perfect contrition. I'll have to do some reading in the morning. I might need that.

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ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

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ORIGINAL: Edwird

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ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
Appalling as it sounds, from a Catholic viewpoint suicide is a mortal sin under any circumstances: there's been an awful lot of blather about it that pretty much boils down to God (in his infinite mercy) offering you a choice between spending the rest of your life, or the rest of eternity in torment, and some of the hereticalhardcore protestant sects take an even dimmer view of it, if that's possible. (To be fair there are other flavours of protestant who take a more accepting view of the matter, but I think the 'suicide is always a mortal sin, no matter what" group are the majority of Christians of any sect.)

I don't care what the Catholic church says, if I were in my last days, immobilized, and had that OP read to me a second time, I'd be stabbing myself desperately after the second word on next go round. Or wishing I could.

Spend 90% of the OP saying "this isn't really about A-rabs or IsLAMists or anything, I'm not talking at all about suicide bombers, even though that's all I'm talking about." So then- "no, really, I'm jus trying to ask about a good honest Christian question about suicide, here."

Yeah, okay.

The catholic church are the root of all christian thought on a religious basis (possibly nothing to brag about when you look at some of the charismatics and "christians" who think that a few stray lines of Leviticus trump everything Christ is alleged to have said in the gospels) so I'd actually give them more of a call on what's definitive than the various protestant heresies.
Sorry.

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ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

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ORIGINAL: bounty44
I agree, thinking of "forgiveness" beforehand does involve a lot of presumption and even hubris.

im also in confident agreement with you on that the catholic position isnt "once saved/always saved" --otherwise, there wouldn't be such distinctions as mortal and venial sins, and probably the heavy emphasis on the confessional.

im not sure the protestant church would qualify the former as sin, or at least always.

but I do know, as I said above, a large portion of the protestant church holds to the idea of once saved/always saved.

that doesn't mean however that they don't view suicide as a sin.

I remember a guy who was my best friend, got "saved" (because his then girlfriend now wife insisted he "give himself to Jesus" and start attending a bible-thumpin' Baptist church). He frequently engaged in a lot of the behaviors that his paramour (and church) railed against on a regular basis. He had a bumper sticker on his car to which he would always refer me: "Christians aren't perfect. They're forgiven"

I asked about his mindset on this. I asked: "You're confident that no matter what sin you commit, God will forgive you" and his answer was always some form of: (Going back to an earlier discussion between you and I, bounty) "If I ask God's forgiveness through His only son, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, he will forgive me anything."

Presumption in the Nth degree, as far as I'm concerned.Peace,Michael

The real point of that one is the notion that if you believe hard enough you don't have to do any of those good works that are suggested throughout the new testament yourself.

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
. . . it was our duty to educate ourselves since the Vatican abdicated that authority.

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The catholic church are the root of all christian thought on a religious basis (possibly nothing to brag about when you look at some of the charismatics and "christians" who think that a few stray lines of Leviticus trump everything Christ is alleged to have said in the gospels) so I'd actually give them more of a call on what's definitive than the various protestant heresies.
Sorry.

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ORIGINAL: Edwird

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ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

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ORIGINAL: bounty44
I agree, thinking of "forgiveness" beforehand does involve a lot of presumption and even hubris.

im also in confident agreement with you on that the catholic position isnt "once saved/always saved" --otherwise, there wouldn't be such distinctions as mortal and venial sins, and probably the heavy emphasis on the confessional.

im not sure the protestant church would qualify the former as sin, or at least always.

but I do know, as I said above, a large portion of the protestant church holds to the idea of once saved/always saved.

that doesn't mean however that they don't view suicide as a sin.

I remember a guy who was my best friend, got "saved" (because his then girlfriend now wife insisted he "give himself to Jesus" and start attending a bible-thumpin' Baptist church). He frequently engaged in a lot of the behaviors that his paramour (and church) railed against on a regular basis. He had a bumper sticker on his car to which he would always refer me: "Christians aren't perfect. They're forgiven"

I asked about his mindset on this. I asked: "You're confident that no matter what sin you commit, God will forgive you" and his answer was always some form of: (Going back to an earlier discussion between you and I, bounty) "If I ask God's forgiveness through His only son, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, he will forgive me anything."

Presumption in the Nth degree, as far as I'm concerned.Peace,Michael

The real point of that one is the notion that if you believe hard enough you don't have to do any of those good works that are suggested throughout the new testament yourself.

The Protestant way. Acquisition = measure of piety.

No wonder how that caught on quickly.

Calvin got paid.

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ORIGINAL: Edwird

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
. . . it was our duty to educate ourselves since the Vatican abdicated that authority.

Just. Stop.

You don't remember the Latin any better than I do, and you sure have demonstrated that you never got the gist of the spirit in the first place.

So screw you and your pre-Vat II Nazi supporters. The Church got rid of you for good reason.

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ORIGINAL: bounty44

thb---its always telling when people who are not believers act as if they have some sort of superior knowledge and insight as to the nature of Christian thought and life.

in this case, at least the way its presented, it just boils down to snark---and isn't too far off the mark of my mentioning elsewhere "the comrades ruining" the conversation.