RE: Israel is "now at war" (Full Version)

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israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/11/2024 10:51:46 PM)

I dispute more or less everything You said.

There was Never A state called Palestine, Actually Arabs can not even pronounce "Palestine" as they have A problem sating the letter P so they pronounce it "Balestine."

Modern history of the formation of the state of Israel, the Birth of the "state for the Jews" starts in the middle 19Th century when Jews from Russia, Poland, Romania were fed up with the constant Pogroms against Jews ( All in all about 1300 pogroms) and asked the Turks - Ottoman Empire - to immigrate to the area of the Biblical Jewish area of the Middle East which was then under Ottoman Rule. The wish was Granted and that was the First and Second Alia (Return), at the time this land was According to Mark Twain's book "Pleasure Excursion to the Holy Land" (1869)

"...these deserts are empty of people, these faded mounds of desolation... Take that mound of swords, Caper Nahum; Take Tiberias, the village of Avili dozing in the shade of its six mournful palms; That desolate river where the miraculous pigs raced into the sea, and no doubt thought that it would be better for them to swallow demons and spirits and even drown in the water, than to continue living in such a place... This monotonous lake, gloomy and without a sail, lay within a ring of yellow hills and low and steep banks. .. All these things - if they do not constitute excellent material for a soothing lullaby, then there is no lullaby possible in the world."

Jerusalem received a more difficult description, the arrival of which he described as a great expectation, even on the part of those in the group who were not exactly pilgrims (p. 126):

"... Lepers, cripples, drug addicts and lunatics attack you from all sides, and it turns out that they only know one word in one language - the eternal 'old man'. Seeing the multitudes of the disabled, the disabled and the sick gathering at the holy places and blocking the gates, one might think that the old days have returned, And that an angel of God is going to come down at any moment and boil the water in Beit Hesda. Jerusalem is a gloomy, desolate and lifeless city.



Parallel to this Herzel and other try to convince the English and other Government to help the Jewish cause which gives birth to the Balfour Declaration (November 2, 1917), statement of British support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.”

Come 1919, WW1 is won and the Allies carve up the land for future states. Britain is given A Mandate over what is known today As Israel, Jordan And Iraq but Jordan was not in the mandate, the land of Jordan was designated to be Part of the Future Jewish State"

Conference of San Remo, (April 19–26, 1920). During the Conference of San Remo, two “A” mandates were created out of the old Ottoman province of Syria: the northern half (Syria and Lebanon) was mandated to France, the southern half (Palestine) to Great Britain. The province of Mesopotamia (Iraq) was also mandated to Great Britain. Under the terms of an “A” mandate the individual countries were deemed independent but subject to a mandatory power until they reached political maturity.

The Arabs did nor agree to the future creation of A Sovereign Jewish state and armed conflicts Started.

In the meantime the Brits decided they want to "Gift" A local Bedouin warlord who helped them against the Turks and on a unilateral step they "Carved" the Eastern side of the future Jewish state and created on it A new Country - Jordan.

Note. The Original San Remo Declaration was NOT Rewritten or Changed, so it was still the only International Valid declaration.


There are fights in the Land, The Arabs Slaughter Jews (List at end) The Holocaust Happens and the World feels it's time to finally Create A Jewish state as promised.

The UN Assembly votes on the Matter, All the Arab and Muslim countries vote Against the resolution but It Passes and the Jews are Given A state.

The UN Carves the remains of the Land into Two parts, One for the Jews and One for the Arabs. The Jews sign the partition Papers, The Arabs Do not. The will not recognize any Jewish entity on what they consider Dar Al Harb ((lit. territory of war), denoting lands that share a border with Dar Al-Islam and have not concluded an armistice) So the UN's resolution is practically worthless as it's not signed by both parties.

On the day Israel declares it's Independence Seven Arab armies Attack it with the Aim to annihilate it. Miraculously the Jews defend the new born country And conqure New territories.

1948 Arab–Israeli War

[image] https://israeled.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Map.jpg[/image]

After the Arabs lost the war, they started Terror Attacks on the Israeli Border towns and Near Border Farmers working the fields.

On September 1955 Then President of Egypt Nazer Closed the Straits of Tiran stopping any ships heading to Eilat Port on Israels South Hurting badly Israels Economy Import/export to the East. The straits were open after A successful Israeli Military Operation.

In the words of Aharon Yariv Former Chief Of Military Intelligence "If Israel does not respond to the closure of the Egyptians - Israel's credibility and deterrence will no longer be of any value. Arab countries will interpret Israel's weakness as an excellent opportunity to attack its security and its very existence.

Short Before the Six Day War, As part of the Arab countries preparations to wage another war on Israel the Straits were closed again, This was A Casus belli

For Israel And the Trigger to the Israeli Offensive on the Arab Armies days before the planned to attack.

If Israel does not respond to the closure of the Egyptians - Israel's credibility and deterrence will no longer be of any value. Arab countries will interpret Israel's weakness as an excellent opportunity to attack its security and its very existence.


Six Day War

* This is A Lot of writing and I want to know it's not written in vain.. So please React to this post if I should continue.

But, As Promised... Attached A list of Arab/Muslim slaughter of Jews in Arab/Muslim countries LONG before Zionism, Jewish state, "Occupied Territories" ETC. The Simple Truth is that Islam orders the Annihilation of All Jews. The rest is Smoke and Mirrors.


1033 - - Massacre of the Jews of Fez, Morocco - Mass killing of about 6,000 Jews, confiscated Jewish property, and took many Jewish wives
1066 - - Riots in Grande, Spain - the murder of 4000 Jews by the city's Muslim population
1391 - - Massacre of the Jews of Faz - of the Jewish community in the city that numbered several thousand Jews, only 11 survived (6 women and 5 men)1033
1679 - - Moza - Yemen - Thousands of Yemenite Jews died in the desert to which they were deported
1834 - - The Peasants' Revolt, the rebels rioted among the Jews of the country, which included acts of murder, robbery and rape
1912 - - Hatriel - Fez, Morocco - 51 Jews were murdered, including 18 women and 10 children. During the disturbances, 12,000 Jewish residents of Malach fled to safe areas assigned to them by the French government
1920 - - Tel Hai - attacks on Jewish settlements in northern Israel
1921 - - The events of 1922 - a series of murders, robberies, rape and looting that ended in the death of 47 murdered Jews.
1929 - - Hebron events - acts of terrorism and murder of 139 Jews, as a result of which settlements and communities throughout the country were abandoned and destroyed, the most prominent of which was Hebron where a massacre occurred
1936-1939 - - The Great Arab Revolt - Over 400 Jews were murdered, small communities and small towns were destroyed
1941 - - Farhud Iraq - 179 Jews were murdered, 2118 were injured, property of 50,000 Jews was looted
1945 - - Tripoli - 140 Jews were murdered.



To Understand What's the real Story is, Read THIS

The Great Misinterpretation: How Palestinians View Israel



Charles6682 -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/13/2024 12:14:48 AM)

Isn't Israel always at war it seems? The years go by and it's the same old war that it's been for decades now. As long as they are there, they have had to deal with one war or another.



israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/14/2024 12:04:03 AM)

You Are Right. There are constants "Hostilities" and wars in Israel. But the Hatred did not start because the establishment of the state of Israel. Muslims killed and butchered Jews as early as 1033 In Maroko and later in other Muslim countries where the Jews were A minority, second class citizens, Un Armed and totally dependent on the Local Authorities simply for being Jews.

Muslims see Jews the lowest of the Three Abrahamic fates, They find more common ground with the Christians and loathe the Jews. Muslims can't bear the fact that the Jews Got A state on what the Muslims see as Dar Al Islam (Land of the Muslims) and that the Jews, The Weakest, The Lowliest, is Actually Strong enough to keep Muslims of this Dar Al Islam and even Have local Arab Muslims working for the Jews and depending on the Jews for Work and Pay.

For A Muslim this is full on Blasphemy And God will not forgive the Muslim or embrace him until this disgrace is wiped out And Muslim will own the Land Again.

Lord Bevin, British Foreign Minister, When asked why did the British Government fail to establish the Brith Mandate to create the "Home State for the Jewish People told the British Parliament the Following : "The Jews want One Thing, A State of Their Own. The Arabs also want One thing, That A Jewish State will never be Established"

It Was Never about Size but the mere existence.

And As long as they will try to destroy us we will defend ourselvs and Hurt them Back.




JVoV -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/14/2024 9:20:16 AM)

Yeah, I see no peaceful resolution here. A cease-fire is probably the best possible outcome, but how long could one realistically last? Even if a 2-state solution is reached now, religious fanatics will breach the peace anyway.

Israel has been accused of genocide, but what actually makes a Palestinian any different from other Arabs? Really, unless someone can explain that to me, I find the charge ridiculous.

I don't like the current Israeli leadership, but I recognize that a sovereign Israel should exist. I really don't understand how no other Arab country has welcomed the Palestinans in all this time, aside from pure spite that Israel exists at all. I also don't think the logistics of a Palestine divided in such a way could ever be one country, then again, Alaska and Florida are both in the US, so wtf do I know?

But I do know there will never be peace as long as Hamas exists. None of it makes sense to me though. It would be like our KKK attacking Canada or Mexico. And being funded by France or some shit.

I don't even understand the religious differences. I mean, I do, but wtf? Am I wrong in thinking Islam and Judaism both start with the same book? The fundamentals should be the same. How does "though shalt not kill" turn into blow people up and you get 72 virgins?



israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/14/2024 8:36:01 PM)

First, Thank You for Your Interest and Open mind. I'll try to answer each and every one of Your Questions.

1) Cease fires are nothing but time outs used by Hamas to regroup And Re Arm getting ready for A next round. For them theres is NO peace with Israel or the Jewish state as their God expects to to annihilate the shame that the existence of Israel represents.

2) They are not, It's A myth invented by Yaser Arafat around 1964, The so called Palestinians were and should be Jordanian citizens as Jordan is already 80% Plus "Palestinians' ruled by A Hashemite Minority.

3) Many Internationally do not like the current government but most Israelis Do. And they do because in the last Twenty years Israel society was forced by a liberal minority to become more progressive than its population wants, Israel has become more "Feminist" then any other country, the courts shifted A hard Left to the point the Supreme court is now actually running the country rendering Government and Parliament, Israel has lost it Will to face Military threats and was delusional enough to belive a policy of pacification to the Hamas and Hisbulla can be a long term solution making Israel very easy to blackmail, Israeli people want to regain their national pride, to win wars rather then make agreements that do not last and surly will return later much harder to Win..

4) A "Palestinian' State is the end of Israel, Its A Geographic fact. it means that at its Narrowest point Israel will be 5 miles wide, that the "Palestinians" will be able to target any Point in Central Israel Including Ben Gurion Airport, That there will be Zero strategic Security zone and Hamas of the West Bank will be in the windows of hundreds of Thousands Israeli homes As it is A high ridge of mountains along Israel Borders.

This is where "Palestinians" want to be - [image]https://a7.org/files/pictures/781x439/1089716.jpg[/image]

We can Not Accept it

As for the Religious Issue.. Simply put, Judaeo Christianity praises Life, Islam Praises Death.

See Attached Link The Great Misinterpretation: How Palestinians View Israel






JVoV -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/15/2024 12:47:15 AM)

I don't like governors of other states sometimes. Hell, I don't even like the governor of my own state most of the time. My opinion about foreign countries governments is pretty much shaped by how often I see them in the news and what they're doing. Like Angela Merkel, I like her. No fucking clue what she did, but she seemed nice.

As for Israel's current response to Hamas, I don't like it at all. Mainly because too many civilians and aid workers are being killed. I understand that sometimes, civilian casualties are unavoidable, because of the cowardly way Hamas operates, but the deaths of American aid workers is a big no-no.

I don't begrudge Israel the right to exist, I'm glad it does. I wouldn't have picked somewhere as hot for all the Jews to have a country, but if prefer moving Gay Days at Disney out of the middle of summer too. For the most part, I am staunchly liberal. I believe in human rights of all kinds. I don't like how gays are treated in Israel. But I suppose I'd rather be hit with a water Cannon than stoned to death or beheaded in an Arab country.

But let me clear, when I say I don't like how Israel is handling this war, I don't like that Israel even HAS TO handle this war. When American citizens were kidnapped, the YS should have sent in Navy SEALs to free them, and then all of Hamas should have been annihilated by the US.

But we can't do that. It's not that our government is too liberal, we've just sold our soul for oil, so we can't be too heard on Arab countries. We have given far too much control of our nation's security to countries that give no fucks about us. And that remains true whether or not somebody believes in climate change. We should switch to EVs and alternative energies as soon as possible, without big oil companies putting up roadblocks.

I don't agree with settlements outside of the authorized Israeli border. That just seems like a dick move and huge security risk, for the settlers and the country.



israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/15/2024 7:51:57 PM)

I'll start with Gay People, I don't know where You get Your info about the Gay community in Israel, but Factually Israel Is one of the Most Gay friendly country in the World

Why Tel Aviv is the Ultimate LGBTQ Travel Destination

Why Tel Aviv Is One of the Most LGBTQ-Friendly Cities in the World

In Gaza or the West Bank they would be shoved of the roof of High Buildings

Pride and Prejudice: The Hellish Life of Gaza’s LGBTQ Community


As for Gazan Casualties.Compared to ANY other war/Combat/Military Operation in Civilian Surrounding, Israel Has the Lowest Combatant/Non combatant ratio ever. A Little more then 1:1.3 ratio.

Fact is No Army Ever, Not even the American Army in Falugha had to deal with A Terror group so Embedded in Civilians, Every second residential House, Every Hospital, School, Kindergarten, Play Ground, Mosque, Every Forign Aid Camp or structure, All conected wit A net of Underground tunnels twice the NY Underground. The Whole City was built below and under Ground to become A Battle ground And with the Full Intent of Hamas to cause as much death to it's own people.

“Casualties are abnormally low” in Gaza conflict, says John Spencer

IDF facing what no military has faced in 'modern history': John Spencer


The Ideology of Hamas | John Spencer









Charles6682 -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/19/2024 2:32:28 PM)

I will admit Israel is probably the only real free Democratic country in the mideast. It's rights towards minorites is far greater than that of neighboring countries. I'm not Jewish but I was raised Christian. It would be interesting to see the places Jesus actually lived but isn't that more in Palestine area? Either way, since modern day Israel became a nation and even before, there's been one war after another. Usually with Israel always winning in the end..Some Muslims are ready to move on. The Abraham accords is actually a positive step in the right direction. This all said, the settlements on Palestine land has to end. This only field this fire. Give the Palestine their fair land, you all keep yours. That's cool. I want a thriving Democratic Israel over there. Not a bully Israel. I think alot of that goes to OPM Benny there. He campaigned on being tough. Yet look.whst happened under his watch. He is s neocon who has no reason to seek peace.



israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/19/2024 8:53:33 PM)

Thank You for Your Kind and Truthful words About Israel.

If You Don't Me Asking You A Question.

Do You Believe the Jews have A right for A Homeland State for the Jews, Any Jews, the can Call their Own?

If Your Answer is YES, then You are this Feared And wrongly Used Term, A Zionist. Very Simply. "Zionism" is exactly That, Believing the Jews of the World Have A Right for A country of Their Own And Making Sure is will remain A Democracy With A Jewish Majority.

If You Think the Jews Have NO right for A Independent Jewish State on Historically Jewish Land (Judea / Israel (The other name of Jacob) ) Then You may be part of those seeking the Annihilation of the state of Israel.

As for the Local Arabs, calling themselves "Palestinians". Here's An Anecdote for You. Would you be surprised if I told You the same People who claim to be "Palestinians" Can Not correctly pronounce the Word Palestine Because the can't pronounce the Letter B, They will say "Balastinian", does this not strike You ode?

Syria Palestrina was a Roman province in the Palestine region between the early 2nd and late 4th centuries AD. The provincial capital was Caesarea Maritima which is on the coast of central Israel.

Gaza - Philistine, one of a people of Aegean origin who settled on the southern coast of Palestine in the 12th century bce, about the time of the arrival of the Israelites. According to biblical tradition Philistines came from Caphtor (possibly Crete, After being repulsed by the Egyptians, they settled—possibly with Egypt’s permission—on the coastal plain of Palestine from Joppa (modern Tel Aviv–Yafo) southward to Gaza. The area contained the five cities (the Pentapolis) of the Philistine confederacy (Gaza, Ashkelon [Ascalon], Ashdod, Gath, and Ekron) and was known as Philistia, or the Land of the Philistines. It was from this designation that the whole of the country was later called Palestine by the Greeks.

There was Never An Identity, country or state of Muslim People called "Palestine" nor did Anyone claimed there is One until Yaser Araft Invented One:

“The Palestinian people have no national identity.

I, Yasser Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel.”

“Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use

Itt as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.”

Yasser Arafat.

Israeli-Arab conflict So-called Palestinians have no history in Israel – except as terrorists

Or Take is Straight from the Hamas Leadership

Fathi Hamad, Top Hamas leader He admits it. "Brothers, half the Palestinians are Egyptian and the other half are Saudis"

And then there is International Law that says Israels LEGAL territory is Israel + Jordan, Again, As Agreed Up On by the Winning Coalition of WW1, Signed by The League of Nations and Later by the UN.

San Remo conference

Would You like me to continue? This is very time-consuming and No point continuing if no one reads it.



JVoV -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/20/2024 4:03:43 AM)

This is tough. I'm an American liberals, so I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. When religion controls the government, there will be problems. In Arab countries, it's called Sharia Law, but is any strict interpretation of the Old Testament safe for governments to enforce?

So no, I don't believe a Jewish state should exist. Not do I believe a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religion should have a country of their own.

Anyone seeking to go to the Holy Land, regardless if religion, should be allowed full access.

But I also recognize that religious persecution has lead to the need and desire of a safe place for Jews to practice their religion. As an American, I fully support religious freedom. So. a Jewish State MUST exist and have the right to defend itself, like any sovereign nation should.

My great-grandmother came to America to escape religious persecution in her homeland. She was a Russian Jew. Israel did not exist when she left Russia.

I think it's a tragic fact that Israel must exist, as it shows the intolerance and weaknesses of so many other countries.

Though the US and Israel are allies, each country has its own agenda that may or may not consider what's best for the other. In fact, our interests may downright conflict at times. Obviously, it can be inconvenient when other nations font acquiese to American desires all the time, but sometimes American desires are fucking stupid.

As I see it, Israel only has authority over the land it controls, so has no right to determine the fates of the Gaza strip or West Bank at all, even if it may be problematic for security reasons. With the existence of Hamas and Hezbollah, that is not an option for Israel. Both terrorist organizations must be destroyed before Israel can even consider such a thing. And with countries like Syria and Iran supporting the destruction of Israel and so many Arab countries even refusing to acknowledge it as a sovereign nation, I don't even know where to begin at times.

This is the problem with religious conservatives, fundamentalists, and extremists having control of the government anywhere. Far too often, those in control don't adhere to their own religious doctrines, in order to impose them on others. Starting with the whole Thou Shalt Not Kill thing.

I for one appreciate an Israeli voice in this conversation here. As I'm sure you can guess, most of the replies to this thread have been American or European. I believe the slants are fairly obvious. Most Europeans sound more pro-Palestinian, while most Americans are pri-Iaraeli for the most part, with more of a slant towards "don't be assholes". I would welcome an honest and reasonable Palestinian voice to the debate as well, as I'm sure our news reports are heavily slanted.

I do truly support Israel's right to exist as a nation. At the same time, I do recognize the plight of the Palestinian people, though I believe they have been and are still convenient pawns being used as cannon fodder for other cowardly Arab countries, in a sort of cold war against Israel. Sometimes the war isn't so cold, with Iran and Syria doing dumb, useless shit to directly interfere.

The Palestinians never had a country of their own under the Ottoman Empire, though the area and it's peopl all flourished. All of its people. Jews and Arabs alike. Really, British Colonialism fucked that all up, establish Israel as the Jewish state to begin with. I believ the creation of Israel itself was antisemitic and mostly to blame for the current situation. Yup, everything is Great Britain"a fault som how. But historical blame is pointless and does not fix the current conditions, but yes, establishing a country where religion and politics are so intertwined is always going to be a bad idea, regardless of the religion. I am not a supporter of any orhanized religion and believe it can be dangerous. That said, I do respect all true faiths and their believers, but have a real issue when any religious book is taken literally and becomes the law of the land. I'm all for bah mitzfahs, but against the Spanish Inquisition. I believe that religion should be a personal decision, not mandated by government. Mostly, I find religious zealots to be assholes and if they get in a position of power, can be quite destructive. Imagine how dangerous the Pope could be if he wanted to start some shit. Catholic churches around the world could easily become terrorist cells. No thanks.

Sorry, I ramble on a lot. I'm enjoying the conversation immensely now. I enjoy looking up facts online to either strengthen or destroy my argument and make me question my understanding of things. For most of us here, it's a philosophical debate, but it isn't part of our everyday life, which I'm sure gas colored your views on the matter. As is completely unavoidable.

Some of the political discussions here are often far too partisan, often ignoring the actual issue completely.



blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/20/2024 4:34:27 AM)

Honestly, discussing Palestine on the basis of Paris Treaties of 1919 (this includes San Remo, and Sykes-Picot borders) is far from wise. The Paris Treaties ending WWI had disastrous consequences we still suffer, not mentioning Hitler's and Stalin's expansions with millions killed and deported, but the expulsions and killings of Greeks from Turkey, of Turks from Greece and Bulgaria, of Armenians, the exclusion of Kurds, and some might still remember ISIS' initial successes with their promise to wipe the Sykes-Picot borders and statehoods away. And while Palestine existed at least as a geographical term at least since the unholy crusades it also exists in Herzl's "Der Judenstaat" (p.29). Herzl was for sure an idealist, while he at length discussed the where of the future jewish state (Palestine or Argentina - Birobidjan was not yet an option) he imagined it more or less unpopulated, and only once considered, how the population present there would be treated. Worth reading still: "Und fügt es sich, dass auch Andersgläubige, Andersnationale unter uns [p. 76] wohnen, so werden wir ihnen einen ehrenvollen Schutz und die Rechtsgleichheit gewähren." (And if it so happens that gentiles, non-nationals live among us so we will give them honourable protection and equality of rights. my translation).
Of course there was neither a Palestinian nation nor a Syrian, Jordanian, Saudi or Kuwaiti nation. All these states were Sykes-Picot inventions cut out of and put together from Ottoman vilayets with Arab populations to satisfy various political interests, mostly French or British. I am surprised to see you quote Hamad from Hamas, which is, of course, completely nonsensical and does not get better by quoting. But if you can agree to call a pre-1948 population of the British mandate territory Palestine Palestinians - they HAVE a history in 1948ff. Israel.

And come on: that Palestians don't pronounce themselves with a "P" is cheap and an unworthy argument. There is no letter "P" in Arab, and I guess you might know that yourself.



Charles6682 -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/20/2024 9:52:58 AM)

I will say this, I've seen YouTube channels of people interviewing everyday people in Israel. Alot of the Israel Arabs seem happy there. Let's be honest, they have more right there than in their own neighboring country. Go figure



israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/20/2024 8:12:54 PM)

blnymph

1) What "People" will call themselves something they can't even pronounce, The Absurdity, is Exactly my point.

2) Would You care to explain to me why my quote of Hamed of Hamas Is Not Valid if he is using it asking the Egyptians Help based exactly on that reasoning, It's This Historical fact on which he is basing the whole argument. Would he say this if he didn't know it's his Only valid case? Do You claim to know the history better than Him and the Egyptians?

3) Choosing Israel was the right choice as it is the Jews historical Homeland, There's No denying that, As the Archeology dated Jewish Massive presence in This Land since ever And for that reason the Jews were given this part of the Land by those who own it Legally After WW1, You may not like the fact, but it is A Fact.

4) " And if it so happens that gentiles, non-nationals live among us so we will give them honorable protection and equality of rights" Every person Holding Israely Citizenship be is Jew, Muslim, Christian, Druze, Or Bedouin Have the exact same right under the law, Actually some enjoy more Rights than Duties and they are in all parts of Israeli Society From Supreme court Judges, Minister in Government, Members of Parliament, CEO of Largest Bank in the Country, Heads of Hospitals, Mayors And the list goes on and On.... BTW, Even Generals In the Army And former Israely Beauty Queen.

5) No One in Israel ever said The Arab Muslims and Christians of the Area Have NO History at all, that would be stupid, But it is A fact that their claims of the land as if it was a great land to live in Before and until the Jews came is contrary to every thing Mark Twain wrote in his Book

Innocents Abroad: CHAPTER LVI.

Now I ask You A Question. Do You Belive the Jews have A right for A Sovereign Jewish state In the place it Is?



israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/20/2024 8:22:43 PM)

Charles6682, You are Absolutely Right, Every citizen Of Israel Has the same right Yet None Jews have Less Duties. From Supreme court Judges, Ministers in the Government, Members of Parliament, The CEO of Israel Largest Bank, Hospital Managers and even high ranking officers in the Army And Military.

Israel is extremely democratic as there are in the Parliament parties that are Anti Israel And Anti-Zionist, yet the Law gives them the right to vote and be voted for. For Example, A MOP who was Yaser Arafat's closest Adviser and is actually A Trojan Horse for our enemies But our laws regarding freedom of speech make this possible.



blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/21/2024 6:41:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: israelislave

blnymph
Now I ask You A Question. Do You Belive the Jews have A right for A Sovereign Jewish state In the place it Is?



Since you asked me personally about what I believe: I think you make the fundamental mistake of assuming having a right includes being right. Yes I believe the Jews require a safe homeland. Does it means this must be the Holy land? I am not sure it must be but history and our sentence Next year in Jeruschalajm makes it an obvious way things developed after Herzl. Do I believe that the Filastin need a safe homeland? If so then also yes. Do I believe the Kurds need a safe home land? If so then also yes. As long as gd-forsaken nationalisms can't be eradicated from human heads. But did gd-forsaken Göring have the right to declare marriages of my ancestors forbidden and subsequently my own existence? Yes he had the right but it was a crime, even if his right subsequently included that my own existence would have been illegal. But I exist, and so do different rights, and conflicting claims. They usually are not solved by throwing "But it is my right" at another's head. But since I work with DP and Shoah survivors and their descendants and know their arguments and their rights, even those conflicted, any conflicting rights can only be solved by peaceful compromises which means everyone has to acknowledge and cannot suppress the right of the other. This means at present the hostages must be freed asap, and Bibi and the others should use their brains and force to get to some terms with the Filastin by not bombing the Gazans to shreds. And keep the radicals off the temple mound but direct them to the West wall, where there should be a security arrangement to prevent stones thrown at them. If the way to peace were easy, in 1947 two states would have been established, which weren't as we know too well.
You habe sung the song of praise about Israel's democracy, and being a better place to live than the neighbouring countries. Yes the Israeli constitution is a good one. Do the Filastin have the same rights as the "ordinary" citizens? You might know too well that land claims are an issue for decades and if a farmer in Samaria has no documents dating back to Ottoman times it can happen easily that some meshuggene can build their houses in his olive orchards.
Having a right does not include being right and getting your right. Sadly so.



israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/21/2024 6:40:17 PM)

So our Answer is "Yes", But.... And this answer is given after You Know the Jews Have The Historic roots Archeological, You know Islam did not even exist until much later when the jews lived in the Land, You know it was legally given to them by the winners of WW1, You know the League of Nations and later the UN approved this passage of right to the Jews, You know How Big it was really meant to be and how unfairly and unlawfully it was downsized, You know the Arab states at the time had no wish to negotiate because A Jewish sovereign state was something they could never Accept, you know the numerous times the tried to annihilate the country but failed, You know about the THREE NO from the Khartun convention, you know they rejected offers better than they asked for..

And you still have doubts? That's sad and disturbing.



blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/22/2024 4:03:33 AM)

Don't you see the flaw in your arguments? All those papers and agreement you so frequently quote NEVER agreed on "how big it was really meant to be". Balfour never defined the territory as such, Sykes-Picot only agreed to an internationally ruled territory never precisely defined. The mess these diplomates created for the post-WWI time is the mess we all are in. People die for that. Since then and now.
You declare my comments "doubts", why? Because I try to warn you about the flaws in your arguments? About waving any treaties doesn't solve the problems they created.
The majority of your arguments won't solve anything either: Declaring Islam coming later won't make it pop like a soap bubble and disappear. It is there, and the holy land is sacred to Christianity and Islam too, despite coming later, and any solution has to acknowledge that, or it will cause more deaths to follow.



JVoV -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/22/2024 6:37:45 AM)

I wonder how many Arabs and Jews were consulted before Britain created Israel? Oh and why didn't they make a Palestine while they were at it?

And yeah, Judaism came long before Christianity or Islam. But apparently there were people before that. Like the Egyptians that kept the Jews as slaves in the first place. Or those people in the Bible that had the golden bulls or whatever to worship.

I believe that all the Holy Lands in the region, from Jerusalem to Mecca, should have been under UN control, with access granted to all that wished to worship there.m, and the Jewish Stateof Israel put where it is now, for the most part, without the actual Holy Lands. It was a had call to place the Jews in the region alone. That makes as much sense as a bunch of white people in South Africa. That's gone so we'll all this time, huh?

The problem these days is that there really is no colonial power
The US squandered our chances at being the world's only super-power. Russia is back with a vengeance and China is a thing. Oh, and the OPEC countries, which seems to be mostly Arab, have been given FAR too much control of the rest of the industrialized world. Our dependence on oil weakens is all in so many ways. Aside from that whole climate change, there is a huge security factor to be considered. The US, UK,or EU cannot negotiate from a place of power. We've given that power to then freely. Hell, we still pay for it at the pump.

With Americans having been taken hostage by Palestinians and American aid workers having been killed by Israeli military, my patience for either side has worn thin. To quote one of my favorite Tori Amos songs, "I believe in peace, bitch". There must be a solution and time is running out for Israelis and Arabs to decide what that may look like.



Charles6682 -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/22/2024 10:32:01 AM)

I do support Israel right to exist but also Palestine. I get the security concerns. That's why America does give Israel billions of dollars in defense and so on. I don't care for hamas. But there are more moderate Palestinians who do wish for peace. It almost came close back in the 1990s with the Olso accord's. Also, that area is sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims. No one gets a monopoly of it. I normally don't agree with mixing politics with religion but while there are still Christian and Muslim theoarcys, no one is telling them not to exist. Plus it does show sadly that there are antisemitism around the world and Jews do need their own country. But a free Democratic free Israel for all, not just for a few chosen few. We are all Gods chosen people. God blessed all of humanity.



israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/22/2024 8:19:56 PM)

1) As to Your First Question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_agreement

1) They didn't create A Palestine Because "Palestinians" as a Group of people claiming for Palestinian Identity and Heritage did not exist until 1964 when Yaser Arafat came up with this story or better yet, A Fairy tale.

Here's an interesting discussion for You:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1ailrza/so_the_palestinian_identity_didnt_start_until_the/?rdt=46535

As for the rest of Your Post, Including Mecca under International Management, I'm sorry but Its obvious you don't understand Islam And as for "everybody seeking for life of Peace You have no Idea what is the Most Basic "Engine" of Islam.

Muslims do not see "peace" as we in the West do. Their goal is worldwide Jihad and domination.






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