RE: Israel is "now at war"

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JVoV -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/26/2024 7:16:38 AM)
Then you understand my feelings when you invoke our first Cheeto colored president. I didn't vote for Trump and I think it's safe to say you didn't vote for Hitler. But currently even, the world news isn't talking about a German response in any way. That applies to the Ukrainian war effort as well. For this matter, the actions of Israel and Arab countries are first, then US-Israeli relations. And my education is fairly solid. I don't see Germany as a global university destination for some reason. Don't think I could even name a German school.

israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/26/2024 7:34:29 PM)
“His Majesty’s Government have thus been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles … For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of a sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine” Quote by British Foreign Minister Ernest Bevin in February 1947 in a speech to the British Parliament explaining why Britain can no longer carry out the mandate with which it was entrusted by the League of Nations and thus sending it back to the United Nation. Note the date - February 1947: there is no Israel, no refugees, no occupation, no settlements, no blockade - none of the ‘understandable causes’ for Palestinian violence that even the UN Secretary General has fallen for. And yet, already in February 1947 it is crystal clear why the conflict is already “irreconcilable”: as a matter of top priority, “the essential point of principle”, the Jews want a state whereas as a matter of top priority the Arabs of the land (later known as Palestinians) seek “to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine”. That’s the conflict. The Jews want a state in even a part of the land. The Palestinians want the Jews not to have a state in any part of the land. That’s “Free Palestine”. That’s “From the River to the Sea”. It’s an idea that guarantees that generation after generation trained murderers will rise under different names: Fatah, DFLP, Hamas, Jihad, to “Liberate Palestine”.

JVoV -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/27/2024 2:10:06 AM)
That's my way of thinking as well. There has never been a country called Palestine. What are called Palestinians now are Muslims that gave not been allowed into neighboring Arab countries to establish a home. Creating a country called Palestine now seems inevitable, although it's likely a mistake. Instead, the land should be the new home of the UN and all of its military training operations. Current residents could still vote and carry on much like normal. Aside from being violent and stuff.

israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/27/2024 11:50:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV That's my way of thinking as well. There has never been a country called Palestine. What are called Palestinians now are Muslims that gave not been allowed into neighboring Arab countries to establish a home. Creating a country called Palestine now seems inevitable, although it's likely a mistake. Instead, the land should be the new home of the UN and all of its military training operations. Current residents could still vote and carry on much like normal. Aside from being violent and stuff. Where exactly will that 'State" be? ? and why do you think the Muslim will accept living under UN control?

blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/28/2024 5:18:09 AM)
Bevin's foresight - no doubt based on what already happened in Palestine - certainly was correct. And the problems were not solved by anything that happened since, not by the British withdrawal, not by the proclamation of Israel, not by the numerous wars, not by the Intifadas, not by the occupations, not by the UN. And I fear there is no easy solution. But some solution is urgently needed, not just since the hostages were abducted and murdered. The solutions, I fear, won't come from any nationalists on either side, nor an American president unilaterally biased to support his buddies. Whether a solution could be a division into two single-nation states, or a union of those, or the creation of a multiple-nations state, I can't say. The murder-minded on both sides would oppose any of that for sure. And to find a solution for Yerushalajim would need a lot of wisdom and mutual compromises. I always admired the Church of Holy-Grave solution - to put someone not involved on any side in control. And a strong mayor for the city will be needed, a Teddy Kollek figure again.

Charles6682 -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/28/2024 7:29:43 AM)
There are been some hope over the decades. Israel and Egypt signed a peace treaty after being at war. Also with Jordan, and now the Abraham accord's. The real issue behind all of this is Iran. They fund all these different groups. Who knows, maybe Israel and Saudi Arabia can even sign a peace treaty. I know Israel is gonna do whatever Israel wants to do, no matter who thr USA President is. I am aware of that culture that Hamas left behind in Gaza. They got voted in back in 2006 and have done nothing but brainwash generation after generation. Yes, Fatah was too at one time but they did agree to the peace accord with Israel back in the 1990s. O yea, didn't that Israel Prime Minister get murdered by an extremist Jew? I agree there are Palestinians don't want peace and clearly some Israelites don't want peace either. So it's just a forever war is basically what the world should always expect. What is this, the 21st century now. Even in Jewish calendar, it's been quite awhile. All this brought to us by thr politics of religion. I normally don't think politics and religion don't mix in public policies. Other than the clear freedom of religion. I just know what I see in America. This country has always been pro Israel. From a historical stand point, I am aware of Jews history in the area. But many cultures have lived in that area for thousands of years now. Can't you all just get along? What about Christians? That area is sacred to them too

JVoV -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/28/2024 4:15:02 PM)
I doubt there will ever be peace in the region, as long as Israel stands. But Israel has a right to defend itself. I may not always agree with the actions Israeli government may take, but those tough choices are not mine to make. Sure, I dislike them, but ultimately, I support them. Any attacks by Hezbollah could completely cripple Lebanon if/when Israel retalluates. Syria and Iran have already seen what entering the fray will bring to them and have backed off for now. I don't see murderers among the Israelis. They have been put in a state of constant self-defense by people that wish them dead. So this "good people on both sides" thing is bullshit. On one side is those that just want to be left alone and the other side won't let that happen. And no, the UN probably can't do much. It's a farce with no real power or international support anymore. But no matter what comes, Israel will rebuild and remain. Those that oppose them can not say the same. I'm a lot less inclined to believe in a two state solution ever bringing peace. In fact, I'm convinced now that it would weaken Israel, or require the longest peacekeeping mission the UN has ever done.

israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/30/2024 3:49:09 AM)
Can You tell me what makes Judea and Samaria "Occupied' Territory? "The murder-minded on both sides " Really? You actually compare the two sides ? By what Standard?

israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/30/2024 4:02:31 AM)
Can You name any other Religion that makes death more important than life and the death as A 'Martyr" Even Greater? A religion that it's believers want and say it out loud, to overtake the world and rule it under sharia Law? Do You know any other country in the world who is so hated because of religious reason and its enemies vow, loudly and on any platform, that their goal is to annihilate it? Do you even comprehend the fact that the UN still allows a Member state to threaten another Member state with annihilation to continue being A Member, and all other members are deaf and Dumb? "If Only Israel was more Tolerant, If only Israel would accept the notion of Two states" Will not happen. We will not commit suicide to please Anyone. Stop for A Moment, Look Around in Your country and Neighboring countries and tell me You dont see real danger at Your door or Already inside Your Cities.

blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (8/31/2024 6:36:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: israelislave Can You tell me what makes Judea and Samaria "Occupied' Territory? "The murder-minded on both sides " Really? You actually compare the two sides ? By what Standard? by present terminology Judea and Samaria were occupied in '67 as you well know. what I csll the muder-minded? Yes some members of the Israeli politics hve completely lost any moral bounds lately, by the standard how they want to achieve and accept the death of innocnents. What Smotrich and Ben-Gvir demanded lately are war crimes, plain and simple. The planned starvation of Gazan civilians on the scales of thousands, by blocking aid supplies, are far beyond appropriate. I don't compare them with any side, although one could. After all there are definifions of what constitutes a "war crime". Obviously the loss of moral and legal bounds is not limited to nationality.

israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/2/2024 1:30:32 AM)
"by present terminology Judea and Samaria were occupied in '67 as you well know" Well, I don't know. I don't know because as the UN partitioned the Land The Jews took what was assigned to them, but the Arabs were not willing to accept any partition and signed on no Partition or new borders. The day of the Jewish state establishment, Five Arab Armies attacked it with the intention to destroy it. They lost. Which meant Israel took over lands of the Aggressor within International Law. Then Came 1967 And the same thing happened, The Arabs Started A war ( Closing the Suez Canal) and were ready to wage war on Israel, Israel Knocked them out A few days before the Arabs D day. The Arabs Lost. Again, All according to International Law. Those Land were won from Jordan. Jordan never claimed those territories and eventually signed A Peace Agreement with Israel Without any claims to those territories. Same story goes for Gaza. So how come there are considered "Occupied territories"? Occupied from whom? [image]https://www.palestinechronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/palestine_shrinking_map.jpg[/image]

blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/2/2024 7:09:44 AM)
You obviosly choose to pretend forgetfulness. your popping maps out of nowhere without comment (one might wonder what the white spots within green in this 46 map should show - you seem to forget to mention the "green line", infamous though important. In you commentless summary of the occupied terrirories you forget the Golan (so did those that made those maps up), and you forget that the status of the territories occupied in 67 were never negotiatiated, so internaionally they are still occupied and disputed. The 2012 map is not more than wishful thinking of your Ozma and Mafdal buddies. I sadly remember some old thread where I endlessly had to disprove fraudulent history lies about the Shoa. Are you trying to play a similar fake history game here?

israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/2/2024 6:27:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph You obviosly choose to pretend forgetfulness. your popping maps out of nowhere without comment (one might wonder what the white spots within green in this 46 map should show - you seem to forget to mention the "green line", infamous though important. In you commentless summary of the occupied terrirories you forget the Golan (so did those that made those maps up), and you forget that the status of the territories occupied in 67 were never negotiatiated, so internationally they are still occupied and disputed. The 2012 map is not more than wishful thinking of your Ozma and Mafdal buddies. I sadly remember some old thread where I endlessly had to disprove fraudulent history lies about the Shoa. Are you trying to play a similar fake history game here? I forget Nothing. Judea, Samara And the Gaze Strip are the focus of Our conversation and their status is very similar, As no state who ruled those Areas claim the Are Legally taken From An Aggressor who lost them Attacking Israel and have not claimed them. So are the Golan hights What You are saying is if an aggressor starts a war resulting in him loosing land to the attacked, the Aggressor can claim back the lond he lost as if nothing has happened? Do I need to remind You of the Khartoum Resolution? "The Three Noes of Khartoum" ،لا صلح مع إسرائيل ،لا تفاوض مع إسرائيل .لا اعتراف بإسرائيل No peace with Israel, No negotiation with Israel, No recognition of Israel. "The Three Noes", Khartoum Resolution, 1967 ،لا صلح مع إسرائيل ،لا تفاوض مع إسرائيل .لا اعتراف بإسرائيل No peace with Israel, No negotiation with Israel, No recognition of Israel. "The Three Noes", Khartoum Resolution, 1967

JVoV -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/2/2024 11:52:25 PM)
Actually, that makes a lot of sense. It's not like the Russian invasion of Ukraine, because Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has been for some time. That would be like King Charles claiming the US. But there is and never has been any legitimate sovereignty of the lands referred to as Palestine. It's not like Israelis just annex part of Egypt or something. Neither Britain, nor the League of Nations, now the UN has ever established any ownership of what is commonly referred to as Israeli settlements. The argument against such settlements would be murky, at best. Similar to China creating islands. You can easily say it's a bad thing, but there is not and never has been anybestanlished rule or law to disallow it. I may be biased though, considering all the "Death To America" bs in Arab countries that are also the homes of known terrorist groups. Any international agency that wants to create a Palestinian country will have to also be able to handle the necessary peace-keeping in any such country. Without the US signing off on doing that, any talk of a Palestinian state is moot. And considering we just recently left Afghanistan after 20 years, getting our asses handed to us in the last days, I don't see much support for that sort of thing happening here in the States anytime soon.

blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/3/2024 12:55:35 AM)
So you stiil pretend those Palestrinians who you deny to exist have no say but to live under Jordan occupation which lost or under Israeli occupation because it won. Or eviction as Ozma tries. Another chapter of population eviction again, like what happened to the Armenians in 15 or the others before, really? What would happen, do you think? Intifada 3? Another Hebron massacre? Is that the solution? Thr Khartoum No's did not prevent Camp David and the negotiations of the Oslo accords despite these contain passages which clarified your questions of status above,and which you obviously forgot. You ll find them here: https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%9B%D7%9E%D7%99_%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9C%D7%95. Since collarchat blows the Hebrew link apart you can get there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords. Believe it or not these things are settled, although to the dislike of Smotrich as well as Hamas.

blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/3/2024 1:03:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV Actually, that makes a lot of sense. ... But there is and never has been any legitimate sovereignty of the lands referred to as Palestine. ... No it does absolutely not make a lot of sense. And yes there is, negotiated and agreed on between Begin and Arafat then, as just linked in my previous post. Since israelislave sadly keeps forgetting some relevant details, he delivers an alternative history with flaws.

blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/3/2024 2:03:43 AM)
Typo: not Begin in Oslo then but Rabin and Arafat,

israelislave -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/4/2024 2:23:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blnymph quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV Actually, that makes a lot of sense. ... But there is and never has been any legitimate sovereignty of the lands referred to as Palestine. ... No it does absolutely not make a lot of sense. And yes there is, negotiated and agreed on between Begin and Arafat then, as just linked in my previous post. Since israelislave sadly keeps forgetting some relevant details, he delivers an alternative history with flaws. I must interrupt here. You described me as "Making up alternative history with flaws" Actually mentioning Begin Is Relevant because he was the First Fool to otter the word "Autonomy" That evolved into the "Oslo accords". But those crashed when Araft started A Double game, Insisting on the Oslo Accords on One Hand But Inflaming his own terror groups to attack Israel and Kill Israellies to create more presurer on the Israeli government. But really... All this conversation is not relevant since October 7, 2023. What Hamas Did, the festivities in the "Palestinian Authority" the Increase of PA funded El Aqsa terror group, the Link with Hisballa, The Huth in Yemen, Pro Iranian militants in Syria and off course Iran Attacking Israel made is absolutely clear to those who still did not want to see the truth because it's bad, The Muslim world is out to wipe Israel off the Planet, Annihilate It, Kill All Jews and move on to the rest of the world, Western Europe and North America. This is NOT a War over some Land, nor is it A war for A self-described "People"... It's the Arab world with the help of many western "Useful idiots" keeping alive the "Refuge Issue" keeping, Intentionally' the "Palestinians" in their status for political reasons. During the War in Syria and Iraq the UN helped over 5 Million Arabs resettle all around the world with much efficiency Just as the Tenth of Millions of refugees from conflicts all around the world sine WW2, And they did that with One UN agency - UNHCR - The UN Refugee Agency - Only the Palestinian Got their own agency which hardly relocated successfully any Palestinian anywhere in the world but on the other Hand counts someone like Bella Hadid, her father, the Multimillion living in Las Vegas and the rest of the Family as "Palestinian Refugees" and Nobody raises an Eyebrow.. The Palestinian Issue is A made up Issue which would have been resolved many years ago if it was not the Muslim Arabs. War happens, there were many refugees all around the world in the last Hundred years who were all helped to resettle, But the Palestinians. The Palestinians are victims of their own leadership, who became MultiBilioners from the suffering of the people.. They have no interest in any Peace as it will, God forbid, to do tedious work actually running a state, And we have seen how this turned out when Israel left the Gaza Strip, not ONE Bomb Shelter for the Civilians but An underground City for the terrorists. They got many Billions from countries and organizations from all over the world and used it to make War, since 2006 they fired about 50.000 Rockets into Israel aiming at cities with the intent to hurt civilians, Show Me One country in the world that would not react, and Very Brutally if it was attacked like this. ONE. Olmert and Barak Offered them more Land then they dreamed to get, they declined. We gave them work permits to enter Israel for enhancing their economy, so they spied on us and knew exactly who is where in the Kibbutzim, How to enter back doors in the Military bases, where exactly Persons of Interest to them lived, how many in the household, if they had A dog, They Planned to reach the Nuclear Laboratories Near Yavne and blow it up in an effort to create an unseen before Catastrophe ... So... they are out to kill us, and when someone wants to kill you, You kill them first. Even if it means generations of war because they for sure will not stop trying. We have nowhere else to go, we were not Colonialists sent by someone where we can fall back to... This is All we have. And You are Next. Just open your TV wherever You are in the West, just listen to what they are saying. Don't "Filter" their words in your Democratic Liberal brain, just listen and let the words, the sounds, the flags sink in.

blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/5/2024 7:05:06 AM)
I rarely agree with you usually but your statement contained two important factors of the dilemma, no doubt. Palestinian politicians, as well as the majority of Arab rulers had absolutely no interest to help the situation of the post 48 refugees wherever. It is part of why the Palestine problem is far from any peaceful solution. Bur evictions as such did not solve any of the problems they were expected to solve over the last century or in the later past, and massacres don't solve either. You need not to look far: Putin's recent "solution" to the Nagornyi Karabach issue will help perpetuate the issue for decades to come. These things cost lives, whether messed up by Putin or Trump. quote: ORIGINAL: israelislave ... there were many refugees all around the world in the last Hundred years who were all helped to resettle, But the Palestinians. The Palestinians are victims of their own leadership, who became MultiBilioners from the suffering of the people.. [/auote]

blnymph -> RE: Israel is "now at war" (9/5/2024 7:34:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: israelislave But really... All this conversation is not relevant since October 7, 2023. What Hamas Did, the festivities in the "Palestinian Authority" the Increase of PA funded El Aqsa terror group, the Link with Hisballa, . This is NOT a War over some Land, nor is it A war for A self-described "People"... It's the Arab world with the help of many western "Useful idiots" keeping alive the "Refuge Issue" keeping, Intentionally' the "Palestinians" in their status for political reasons. You and your buddies fail to grasp that these Palestians are living people regardless their status. Yes sorry it is relevant. While I detest Hamas which had no trouble to fire rocket salvos instead of caring for shelters for the Gazan civilians I also detest people like Smotrich who consider mass starvation appropriate to what purpose exactly? force Hamas into surrender, free the hostages, make the Gaza strip available to future settlement? Consider me an useful idiot if you like, if it can be useful to save lives, Palestinian as well as Israeli lives, I regard this an honour, especailly since Smotrich himself admitted in the IT that only the international protests kept him from enforcing his starvation plans. This and the war criminal trial that might have been waiiting for him.

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