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slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 2:26:59 PM

Submotive

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline

Greetings A/all - i have a few questions and welcome responses from all perspectives.

Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

Thanks to A/all.

_____________________________

Owned by Scotch Master

i would rather continue alone than be permitted to show only parts of myself to my Beloved.

If you're not living as you would like to today, when are you going to start?

Post #: 1

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 2:36:01 PM

MmakeMme

Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline

There's a huge difference between being mindful of your Master's wishes and being mindless.

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 2

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 2:38:12 PM

zumala

Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline

I think it's certainly possible. If a Dom wants mindless obedience, he should get a robot. For someone not to think at all, they'd have to be micromanaged to the point of madness. I suspect that a good Dom wants to see their sub thinking. Assign tasks and see how the sub fairs. If the sub needs or wants help, they should ask.

zuma

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 3

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 2:47:53 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Submotive
Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

One can certainly say there is a dimension of psychological simplification inherent in training / conditioning a slave, but this is not to say that so-called mindlessness is the sought after ideal. Unless one's skull casing is bereft of the entirety of all cerebral matter, it is absurd to speak of one having "no mind".

A slave (in the consensual world) serves from exactly the opposite state. A very real and alive thinking passion to serve and obey another is the impetus most important for attaining the nearest level of selflessness in the realm of flesh, blood and bone.

< Message edited by amayos -- 8/4/2006 2:59:51 PM >

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 4

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 2:47:58 PM

xkittenishx

Posts: 38
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline

Absolutely not - my Master expects obedience in all tasks set forth and a -lot- of His tasks require quite a bit of thinking on my part. Being good does not equate to being a doormat, I am constantly finding ways to better myself, to learn new things, to find new experiences for He and I... In my opinion a submissive should always, always be thinking, should try to be one step ahead... I've often joked that submissives should beable to see through walls, or at least attempt too.. to better their service to their Master/Mistress and with all that said.. I think the last way He (or anyone else) might describe me would be 'mindless' in my service.

~just my two cents :) ~

(in reply to zumala)

Post #: 5

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 2:49:50 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

Personally, I think obedience is over rated. What I think ranks higher is pro-active service.

In this perspective what is better: Being told to get a glass of water and going and getting it? Or having that glass of water ready before you are asked?

Providing that kind of service involves caring, empathy and thought out motions.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to zumala)

Post #: 6

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 2:54:53 PM

MsKatHouston

Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside?

I'd much prefer to have a slave who thought very carefully before obeying. What a value to me to have a slave who willingly and knowingly did what I wanted.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 7

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 2:58:59 PM

MHOO314

Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Submotive

Greetings A/all - i have a few questions and welcome responses from all perspectives.

Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

Thanks to A/all.

I think what you may be asking is about the slaves mindset as they give over to more submission versus what a Master might select---the need to please becomes such a growing and compelling driver that the slave becomes lost---what once they would have done without thought, they now think twice about and wonder where do I stop and the slave in me begin or when can the "me" come out--I think it is important to always keep in the forefront the things that attracted Master to you or the things He loves the most about you... as a person---these are the things I believe a Master will not want to see "lost" but enhanced in the obedience of a slave. These things stay sharp, developed "for the Master"--

A good Master will use those qualities to the benefit of His growth and the relationship.

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 8

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 3:01:15 PM

raiken

Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

Hmmmm...how do i NOT think? LOL! Although some forms of meditation have helped me clear my mind at times, i am always thinking about something, no matter how random or off the wall the subject matter may be, the thoughts always come.

The Masters i know, enjoy a sub/slave who is able to think on their feet, (or any other position for that matter-lol) unless of course a dominant is into that whole micromanaging thang, and for me, it would drive me insane.

What good is having a mindless robot anyway? Where would the dominance begin and the submission end, there would be no will to dom or will to obey as i see it, for it is mindless and programmable. (of course i know of a few here that would enjoy having a remote <weg>). But then really, would that type of situation even be referred to as M/s? There would be no growth of Mastery, how could a Master learn and grow without the interchange, there would be nothing to challenge, inspire, or encourage the Master to learn how to keep a slave subject to their will. i think that would be very boring for the Masters and dominants that i know. Hope this made sense! It has been a long day. ;-)

~raiken

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 9

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 3:02:06 PM

Homestead

Posts: 1005
Status: offline

Not really, mindless would be catatonic. Or in a coma, dead etc............where do people get this stuff?

One can train to near perfect cooperation with the correct incentives.

(in reply to MHOO314)

Post #: 10

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 3:06:05 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Submotive
Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?

Yes- specially if they have been ordered to be mindful (and most slaves are taught to be mindful of many things). Then they would be DISobedient if they became mindless.

quote:

Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

What about obedience leads you to think you need mindlessness? After all, in order to obey at all, you need to be mindful of what is required within obedience.

There are things which can become rote, things which can become simply reactive with no thought processing, obedience to training- like a warrior trained to wield her weapon.

This is hardly the same as being completely mindless however.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 11

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 3:29:40 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Submotive

Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside?

Throwing around words like perfect is setting yourself up for failure. There is no perfect. Honestly, can you really imagine someone who never fails to do the right thing? Not, not ever going to happen. No such things as Stepford wives/husbands/slaves, and even robots make mistakes...In every sci-fi movie featuring robots, I imagine.

Mindlessness, as a zen principle is incredibly difficult for any human being to achieve, so unless you have a slave who's IQ is measured in single digits you are never going to get mindless obedience. (And hell, anyone that low on the IQ scale won't have the mental capacity to act in any way, obediant or dis-obedient.)

I would never respect any dominant who desired a slave who never questioned, never felt the need to make their own decision. It's a recipe for disaster.

"Don't leave the house while I'm at work, slave!" "Yes, master/mistress!"

11 News Headline. House burns down. One dead body found.

Common sense and reality are what I look for in a partner. And common sense would dictate that he would expect me to disobey on occasion, in my best interests, and his.

No such thing as perfect obedience...that was my point...LOL /rant

*edited for typo fairy interference

< Message edited by Vancouver_cinful -- 8/4/2006 3:31:41 PM >

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 12

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 3:31:33 PM

ladyhawk40

Posts: 32
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline

I am a collared slave to my Master. He expects me to be able to think on my own and not be a "mindless robot"or a "doormat". I know He likes a little playful brattiness from time to time. I also know that it really gets on His nerves for a slave to disobey on a regular basis or put up a fight to do something He requests or to break rules that are agreed upon between Him and a slave. On the other hand, He wants me to be able to make decisions when he is not available to guide me.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 13

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 3:36:57 PM

DoctorDubious

Posts: 267
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Submotive

Greetings A/all - i have a few questions and welcome responses from all perspectives.

Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

Thanks to A/all.

If all you want is a doormat,
you can get one at WallMart for twelve bucks.

DD

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 14

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 3:41:57 PM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

There is a BIG diffrence between obedience and MINDLESS obedience.

I have a good obedient girl however she has a mind of her own, knows her own wants and needs and can express them well. They are information I use when making My decisions. She has input in the process but is obedient to My decisions.

But then I am not insecure in My ability to make the decisions I want being swayed simply because I know what she might want. Sometimes what I want and what she might want are compatable, occassionaly I will choose to indulge her, but if I want something, even if it isn't what she wants, I get it because that is our dynamic and I am confident in making decisions even if I have a girl who isn't a mindless drone.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 15

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 5:00:07 PM

SeekingmyMaster

Posts: 4
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline

i think, (ooooooops am i allowed to do that as a slave *smile*) if you are seeking perfection in obedience, you should probably get a dog and get involved in obedience trials (many more perfect scores there). As a human i know i am far from perfect and though i try very hard to meet the expectation of my dominant, i fail from time to time. Besides i have yet to meet a dominant that didn't have his own set of imperfections...

thanks for listening
slave sheryl

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 16

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 5:13:54 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Submotive
Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

I have not read the other replies, but there is no such thing as perfection and if you think you can achieve it then you are setting yourself up to fail.

In some cases, I am mindlessly obedient. One day my Lord and I were on the phone and alandra handed him dinner and a fork. He says, "get me a spoon", I got up out of my chair and was starting to get him a spoon, when I realized I couldn't very well hand him a spoon through the phone. He got a great kick out of that when I told him, but that was me just being mindlessly obedient.

There are other times when I have to be mindfully obedient and on rare cases I can be mindfully disobedient. The only thing that is not tolerated is willful disobedience.

If I were to go through my life without thought and just wait for instructions, my Lord would have a lot of work on his hands and it would piss him off. The key is knowing when to think and when not to think, appropriate behavior for a given situation.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 17

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 5:19:48 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Oside, I'm *very impressed* at your comment about "Pro-active Service!!!
Your Dom/Domme is a lucky man/woman

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 18

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 5:27:43 PM

Homestead

Posts: 1005
Status: offline

I think this might come back to something from Monty Python.

I would certainly expect a slave to question the validiy of an order like "Now go chop down the biggest tree in the forest, with a herring!"

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 19

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 5:32:25 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

In this perspective what is better: Being told to get a glass of water and going and getting it? Or having that glass of water ready before you are asked?

What if he/she wanted coffee?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 20

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