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RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 5:44:44 PM

breathless1

Posts: 18
Joined: 8/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Submotive

Greetings A/all - i have a few questions and welcome responses from all perspectives.

Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

Thanks to A/all.

Taking out the word "perfectly", yes a submissive/slave can be obedient and not be mindless. The act of being obedient on its own merit requires the sub/slave to think.

What Owner would want a person who could not use their mind and make their own decisions. Would it not then become necessary for Him/Her to hold the spoon up to their submissives lips and command her/him to eat just to remain alive?

Obeying ones Owner is a very thought provoking action. i may WANT to do this.......but i will instead do that because that is what my Master has told me to do and i trust that He knows better than i do.

i am a woman, a submissive, and even sometimes a slave but i am not, nor would i ever hope to be, a mindless doormat. Not a goal most of us would seek out.

breathless one

_____________________________

the truth is in the eyes.

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 21

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 6:43:16 PM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Not really, mindless would be catatonic. Or in a coma, dead etc............where do people get this stuff?

Now that would be HOT!!! Talk about objectification!

On a more serious note, I think all of the others have covered the answer really well. The only thing I might add, subject to bashing, is that a slave can also go about their duties 'despite' their mindfulness. They don't have to agree with everything that is going on; their lot is to serve and to please.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to Homestead)

Post #: 22

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 6:54:45 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

What if he/she wanted coffee?

In that case you learn how he/she likes it the first time you serve it. And you remember, without having to be told again.

I like the idea of "proactive service" and I think it's one of the best things you can provide to your Dom(me). I strive to go there.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 23

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 8:01:01 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

What if he/she wanted coffee?

In that case you learn how he/she likes it the first time you serve it. And you remember, without having to be told again.

I like the idea of "proactive service" and I think it's one of the best things you can provide to your Dom(me). I strive to go there.

I agree to a point, but mind reading is not within my capabilities.

I strive for proactive service but I don't assume anything. I ask questions; i.e. "Would (insert appropriate title here) like something to drink? What would you like?"

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 24

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 8:03:48 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
I like the idea of "proactive service" and I think it's one of the best things you can provide to your Dom(me). I strive to go there.

As with all things, there is a balance. Every dom has their own method- some prefer pro active in some areas and passive in others, some prefer NO pro active.

It's the difference between the method of "Don't do anything until I tell you" and "Keep doing what you are doing until I tell you otherwise"

There are things that my boys have learned to get ready for me, like a Pepsi in the morning. However, there are things they have learned NOT to be pro-active with as my tastes can change rapidly or I just prefer doing them on my own. That's what training is all about. I like that whichever I prefer, is what I get.

Unless I'm submitting :)

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 25

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 8:42:13 PM

obis

Posts: 412
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

Thinking and action don't have to coincide. Riv can think whatever she wants, so long as she follows commands.

It's not that much different from being in the military or even at work, just a matter of degree.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 26

RE: slave & obedience - 8/4/2006 9:19:03 PM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Greetings A/all - i have a few questions and welcome responses from all perspectives.

Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

Thanks to A/all.

i dunno

dunno again

cos she's told what to think.. so therefore she thinks? dunno!

Mebbe balance?

Whatta is a slave anyways? Just another human being.... who needs to be treated like a car.. cos if cars arent taken care of .. they break!

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 27

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 6:32:58 AM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

Being obedient doesnt mean being a robot. Being a slave doesnt mean being a robot. If you cant think for yourself its not because of obedience. Most want a slave that has a mind and can carry on a conversation. Being obedient is a part of submission, which doesnt suck your brain cells out.

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 28

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 7:42:15 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

If the orders are detailed and full one might be able to become mindlesss but most owners I know give the following sorts of orders (myself included):

Get me something to drink/eat.
Entertain me.
Make arrangments for X.
Have this place cleaned up by the time I'm home.
Beg.

You can not do any of the above without thinking, planning and doing. You may need to be self-motivating. You certainly need to be active in learning about your owner so you can carry out commands in the best possible way.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 29

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 7:50:17 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

What if he/she wanted coffee?

In that case you learn how he/she likes it the first time you serve it. And you remember, without having to be told again.

I like the idea of "proactive service" and I think it's one of the best things you can provide to your Dom(me). I strive to go there.

I agree to a point, but mind reading is not within my capabilities.
I strive for proactive service but I don't assume anything. I ask questions; i.e. "Would (insert appropriate title here) like something to drink? What would you like?"

That is correct. And when in doubt, I will ask. But, it's about paying attention to the patterns of the Dominant, learning from them and then trying to anticipate.

Does it work 100% of the time? Nope. Does he notice that I'm trying? Yes.

And as LA says, it really comes down to the preference of the Dominant. Some Dom/mes like to micromanage.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 30

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 8:05:02 AM

MistressMelissa

Posts: 226
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Personally, I think obedience is over rated. What I think ranks higher is pro-active service.

In this perspective what is better: Being told to get a glass of water and going and getting it? Or having that glass of water ready before you are asked?

Providing that kind of service involves caring, empathy and thought out motions.

Amen. A slave that has learned enough about me and my ways that they can anticipate my needs and/or desires is much more valuable than someone I have to continually instruct or watch over. Intelligence, a quick mind, self disciplined and a desire to excel, makes a slave invaluable. If you manage to find one and they desire to devote their service to you, hang on to them.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 31

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 8:09:51 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMelissa

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Personally, I think obedience is over rated. What I think ranks higher is pro-active service.

In this perspective what is better: Being told to get a glass of water and going and getting it? Or having that glass of water ready before you are asked?

Providing that kind of service involves caring, empathy and thought out motions.

Amen. A slave that has learned enough about me and my ways that they can anticipate my needs and/or desires is much more valuable than someone I have to continually instruct or watch over. Intelligence, a quick mind, self disciplined and a desire to excel, makes a slave invaluable. If you manage to find one and they desire to devote their service to you, hang on to them.

I agree very strongly.

Having someone who is trained so well and who has invested their own personal energy and discipline in learning so they can serve without a word from an owner is a great property to possess. It takes work from both people to achieve this level of service though in my experience but it can be wonderful when it falls into place.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to MistressMelissa)

Post #: 32

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 8:30:30 AM

painpup

Posts: 132
Joined: 2/16/2005
Status: offline

well if this of revelance i have a low tone hearing from being around noisy environments so i may say excuse me because if you're a low talker i may have missed some of speech or instruction it does make pay deep atention to speaker an i even think i should go for lip reading too

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 33

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 8:51:15 AM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

Proactive service is fine if that is allowed and wanted by the owner. My owner likes a much more reactive type of service. Proactive within his defined parameters is OK too..but just going off and making independent decisions for me or for him without him telling me? No way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

In this perspective what is better: Being told to get a glass of water and going and getting it? Or having that glass of water ready before you are asked?

What if he/she wanted coffee?

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 34

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 8:55:11 AM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

Exactly. My owner enjoys management of his property. He will delegate to people but doing without being told to do someting by him is frowned upon. He does not like people who attempt to think for him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

What if he/she wanted coffee?

In that case you learn how he/she likes it the first time you serve it. And you remember, without having to be told again.

I like the idea of "proactive service" and I think it's one of the best things you can provide to your Dom(me). I strive to go there.

I agree to a point, but mind reading is not within my capabilities.
I strive for proactive service but I don't assume anything. I ask questions; i.e. "Would (insert appropriate title here) like something to drink? What would you like?"

That is correct. And when in doubt, I will ask. But, it's about paying attention to the patterns of the Dominant, learning from them and then trying to anticipate.

Does it work 100% of the time? Nope. Does he notice that I'm trying? Yes.

And as LA says, it really comes down to the preference of the Dominant. Some Dom/mes like to micromanage.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 35

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 8:57:54 AM

BillsGalSusan

Posts: 69
Joined: 7/18/2006
Status: offline

I may be out in left field here...

Some people who are submissive get great joy from being of service, others from being compelled or commanded, and still others from both, in various combinations. My personal experience, at this point in my life, is that I get my joy from Bill having these components arranged the way he likes them.

On a mundane level (and so much of our lives is mundane, despite the hot stuff that also happens), that means I ask every morning what he would like for breakfast, because I know he likes to make the choice and I want him to have exactly what he wants. I have his after work clothing laid out for him, and get him his glass of Jack as he is changing, because I know he expects me to anticipate those things and serve him in those ways, and I wait for him to tell me when to get ready for bed and what to wear (or not), because he likes to control that aspect of our lives.

Another Susan

< Message edited by BillsGalSusan -- 8/5/2006 9:01:05 AM >

(in reply to painpup)

Post #: 36

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 9:03:42 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Submotive

Greetings A/all - i have a few questions and welcome responses from all perspectives.

Can a slave be perfectly obedient without becoming mindless?
Would You say that perfect obedience requires a slave to set all thinking for herself aside? If not, how can she be perfectly obedient and still one who thinks?

Thanks to A/all.

Speaking as someone who will never be *perfectly obedient*....still a slave. My mind is my own, it thinks the way it does whether I like it or not.....whether it's beneficial or not, whether my Master likes it or not.

Obeying is part of the *deal*.....but my thinking and my mind still does it's own thing. I can obey because it's easier, because it's nice, because it gives me a good feeling, because it's the best course of action for me, because I'll get thwacked if I don't..........lots of reasons.

None of them because I am not thinking.

agirl

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 37

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 9:57:11 AM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillsGalSusan

Some people who are submissive get great joy from being of service, others from being compelled or commanded, and still others from both, in various combinations.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. What you've described is pro-active and passive service, and each submissive will have his or her own preference in how they wish to serve and derive pleasure from serving.

The key is compatibility... when a dominant finds a submissive whose idea of service matches his or her own, and whose likes, dislikes, life experiences, vision, and aspirations are similar or complimentary, then obedience becomes uncomplicated.

But this perceptibly effortless compliance and seamless cooperation is far from mindless.

(in reply to BillsGalSusan)

Post #: 38

RE: slave & obedience - 8/5/2006 10:12:36 AM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

Hello and Tal

If I may put a Gorean spin on this thread. I agree with many that "perfect" is not something that is easily achievable I look on it as something a slave should work towards. In fact the duty of a kajira (Gorean slave girl) is to be "Dutifully Obedient and Exquisitly Beautiful". Obedience is important in the Master/slave releationship, but a slave as others have pointed out are not doormate or mindless. A slave must always remember their place and know and continue their goal of pleasing their Master/Mistress. If anyone has read the Gor books, it is hard to say any of the kajira were doormates they had a will and minds.

I wish you well

Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 39

RE: slave & obedience - 8/6/2006 2:56:43 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillsGalSusan

I may be out in left field here...

Some people who are submissive get great joy from being of service, others from being compelled or commanded, and still others from both, in various combinations. My personal experience, at this point in my life, is that I get my joy from Bill having these components arranged the way he likes them.

On a mundane level (and so much of our lives is mundane, despite the hot stuff that also happens), that means I ask every morning what he would like for breakfast, because I know he likes to make the choice and I want him to have exactly what he wants. I have his after work clothing laid out for him, and get him his glass of Jack as he is changing, because I know he expects me to anticipate those things and serve him in those ways, and I wait for him to tell me when to get ready for bed and what to wear (or not), because he likes to control that aspect of our lives.

Another Susan

I agree, fully. In my own slavery, it isn't one or the other. I am both proactive and I am obedient. For example, I know exactly where he wants me when he is eating, so I go there without a word. Hence, proactive. However he may change his mind one day and want me somewhere else, and when he orders me elsewhere, that is where I will go. Hence, obedient. Both are of equal value, because both give him what he wants. Both require thought, as they both have me mindful of his preferences. A simple example, but I think relevant, none-the-less.

(in reply to BillsGalSusan)

Post #: 40

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