RE: Does there exist (Full Version)

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Inhibitor -> RE: Does there exist (8/11/2006 9:54:10 AM)

Excellent for in-depth self-diagnosis, limited understanding of treatment procedures, and inducing extreme, gut-wrenching gags at the pictures (in full color!): Mosby's Med. Encyclopedia.

Sure, there'll be unrelated information, but everything you're after, Zeno, will be covered in all its visceral glory.

...Or you could just watch MacGuyver re-runs....[8|]



barbiealto -> RE: Does there exist (8/11/2006 12:07:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If you could see the stains on my mattress from wine, hotchocolate and piss.......(couple of cigar burns there too)

LOLOL.

Ron


hell no!!



Kedikat -> RE: Does there exist (8/11/2006 1:35:27 PM)

A good first aid course.
How trauma and damage is done to the body does not matter. ( leaving out emotional issues )
The results and treatments are the same.
Considering the circumstances are often known and planned. You should be able to concentrate on certain emergency first aid, but the unexpected happens, so take the whole course.

My St Johns course covered things that might happen in a scene quite well. Using the knowledge I can also prepare for or even avoid accidents.



WhipTheHip -> Caution and a lot of what iffing. (8/11/2006 5:46:06 PM)

Pitfalls I learned the hard way.
 
1.  If a female is tied spread eagle, and you fuck her in
     the mouth she can have trouble breathing or choke
     on your cum.  She can't let you know by saying
     anything.  This is kind of obvious, but I didn't realize
     the danger when I first tried it.
 
2.  Knots slip and many ropes stretch quite bit.  If you
     tie someone suspended, you need to ask yourself
     what will happen if the person slips down one or more
     feet.  I used to use sheets to tie up subs, because ropes
     cut into the flesh, and handcuffs can cause nerve
     damage and can bruise bones.   But a sub tied with
     sheets can sink several feet before the knot won't
     give up more slack.
 
3.   Never leave a sub immobilized or unattended.  This
      is not something I ever did.  Even I would never be
      that stupid or insensitive.
 
4.   Have tools handy that can free a sub quickly and
      safely.  Don't expect to be able to untie knots.  Have     
      a fast, safe way to free a sub.
 
5.   When a sub is gagged, she can choke and is unable
      to use safewords.  Hand signals can be used, but don't
      count on a sub to be able to use them.

6.   May subs go into sub space, and can't use safewords.
      Never assume because a sub has not used a safeword
      she is okay.

7.   If you whip someone hard enough, they can die from a
    heart attack.

8.   Negotiate everything ahead of time, and put things down
    on paper so there can be no misunderstanding.

9.   A first sesion should last no longer than two hours. 

10.  Be careful not to tie a sub up in a position where they
    have trouble breathing and can't say anything.

11.  Low current can be more dangerous than high current.
    Don't play with electricity if you are not an electrical
    engineer or pretty close to it.

12.  There is no such thing as safe breath play.  People
     die all the time by accident from police choke holds,
     and police are trained on how to safely employ
     choke holds.

13.   Find out from a sub if there are any things that
      might emotionally upset her, or cause flashbacks.

14.   Find out if your sub has any medical conditions,
     and their treatment.

15.   Anchor points can fail.  Make sure your sub won't
      injure her head or accidently become impaled.

  16. Before you roast your over an open fire make sure
      to apply lots of olive oil. . . . just kidding.



zenofeller -> RE: Does there exist (8/11/2006 6:12:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Inhibitor
Excellent for in-depth self-diagnosis, limited understanding of treatment procedures, and inducing extreme, gut-wrenching gags at the pictures (in full color!): Mosby's Med. Encyclopedia.
Sure, there'll be unrelated information, but everything you're after, Zeno, will be covered in all its visceral glory.
..Or you could just watch MacGuyver re-runs....[8|]


yea, i know. but that's general practice. there exists a speciffic need here, and if the community wouln't be mostly made up of hot air packed in tight skulls, that need would either have already been met, or at least someone would be working on it.

a shitty wanna-be retailing chain can come up with 200 pages of "policies" between two management blockheads and a part time lawyer. the great and wonderfull bdsm "community" can't be bothered to save it's own neck, because, well... it's own neck doesn't need saving, it's each their own etc. amusing.

at this point in the history of this particular subculture, the one foremost cultural need is a blue book. whoever comes up with it will be the most important culturar actor of the next couple decades. simple as that.



mons -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 12:52:40 AM)

greeting z

why do you need one i have never haerd of it but if you say it is then it must be

mons



MzMinx -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 2:35:47 AM)

zeno ..... *smiles* .... without needing to comment on whether I agree or disgree with  your statement of this dire need....... 

if you desire a  bdsm blue book equivilant .. or think it is such a  vital  thing  for this sub culture .. .... why dont you create one .... either by sponsoring it .. or do your own research and publishing..


there is no BDSM board of directors ....no CEO  or  human resources department   to delegate  jobs to .... It is individuals that bring their time, skills, passion and  effort  into creating the artifacts we do have access to within the general public arena  *smiles* 

so rather than complain that  none of the rest of us  who are, hot air packed in tight skulls,  as you so elequently state ... are covering this dire need .... why dont you show us all the way ... and put yourself  to the problem

then you can be your own self titled 'most important culturar actor of the next couple decades'


btw  *smiles* ... many of us do spend  time  and effort in educating our selves and others in safety  and  other important areas of the sub culture .




zenofeller -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 2:51:44 AM)

to make it perfectly clear. i am not doing it for one or more of the following reasons :

1. i am a tight skull with a lot of hot air tightly packed in.
2. i can't be bothered, am too lazy or too incompetent to pull it off.
3. i don't care to be important, or just not as a cultural actor, or maybe not as a positive impact, or whatever.

so, either no capacity, no time or no motivation. like everyone else. that doesn't change the need.



MsCameron -> RE: Caution and a lot of what iffing. (8/12/2006 6:58:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

7.   If you whip someone hard enough, they can die from a
   heart attack.

8.   Negotiate everything ahead of time, and put things down
   on paper so there can be no misunderstanding.

11.  Low current can be more dangerous than high current.
   Don't play with electricity if you are not an electrical
   engineer or pretty close to it.

12.  There is no such thing as safe breath play.  People
    die all the time by accident from police choke holds,
    and police are trained on how to safely employ
    choke holds.


If you whip someone hard enough, they can die from a heart attack? Well, if that were the case, I surely would have left a slew of dead people in my wake.
Come on! In all my years in the lifestyle, I have never heard of anyone dying from a hard whipping.

Bad things happen. Period. I could be hit by a car tomorrow. Does that mean I never go out or drive because I might POSSIBLY have a car accident?

People have medical conditions that they don't know about. How can you ever forsee anything that can happen? If you feel you need to be a heart surgeon to handle all emergencies, by all means, go back to school.

I do agree it's a good idea to take a CPR and First Aid course. You may never need it in the dungeon but you may need it somewhere else. In fact, everytime I have used mine, it has never been within the lifestyle.

Edge play is just that. Edge play. If you're not comfortable or knowledgable, don't go there.
There are a lot of things that are done that are not "safe". Best thing is to be knowledgeable and reduce the risk. That's the key. Reducing the risk because if you play in this arena, you'll never get rid of all of them. And no manual will do that!

I do not negotiate. Give me the hard limits and I'll take it from there.
I do electrical play and I am not an engineer. I have, however, taken classes from Uncle Abdul who wrote the book "Juice".
I also do breath play. I understand and know the risks.

Rant over!

MC.. who refuses to be safety'd to death.



MsCameron -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 7:14:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

it would do alot for the practitioners, and it would do alot more. it would be one great step towards social acceptance.


Why? Social acceptance from whom?

MC



BrutalAntipathy -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 7:23:39 AM)

I've been waiting the better part of a decade for someone to show me a single documented case of death by TENS unit. Nobody has yet, but still they perpetuate the myth.



SweetSarijane -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 9:40:02 AM)

Knowing basic first aid and CPR, using common sense, reading and learning about the things you want to do and even seeing demos, or watching others at play parties, or asking someone experienced to show you and help you learn to do something new, use your head. I don't need a special bdsm first aid book. First aid is first aid...not like you gotta flog somebody while checking their vitals cause it's an s/m accident.

I know basic first aid and CPR, ropes can be cut off, it really is just a matter of common sense and being prepared for eventualities.



zenofeller -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 9:53:41 AM)

orly. how are ropes to be cut off then ? towards the skin ? insert blade between body and rope ? what if there's no room ? burn them ? common sense is this thing that doesn't exist.



stef -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 10:51:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

common sense is this thing that doesn't exist.

Perhaps it's a personal problem?

~stef



EvilGeoff -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 10:55:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

you need a blue book. the BDSM community needs a blue book.


If the BDSM community "needs" a blue book they can use the standard one.  Creating a new book is just re-inventing the wheel.

A cut is a cut is a cut - first aid is the same whether you do it gardening, sharpening a kitchen knife or in the middle of a scene.

Same for fainting, heart-attacks, broken bones or airway obstructions.  You treat the injury.  How it happened is, for the most part, irrelevant, unless the circumstances that caused the injury are still in effect (IE: the injured party is in contact with a live electrical line). 

The drill-down is the same, SURVEY the scene, make sure it is safe for YOU to approach the injured party (after all, if YOU get injured trying to help someone, you've just becmoe another victim and add to the problem), CALL for help, AID the injured party to the best of your training and ability.

CPR and basic first-aid (or first-responder) classes are a GREAT thing for people in the Scene to take. EMT courses are probably a bit of overkill.  ANY competently written first aid handbook should suffice for Scene safety purposes.  But like any resource, it does no one any good if the resource is not used. 

YIK,
- Geoff



zenofeller -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 11:35:53 AM)

sure, for general stuff, general stuff.

then we end up in discussions about how deadly anal intake of alcohol is. there are speciffic issues that need speciffic discussion. torn ligaments due to wrong suspension are absolutely typical to bdsm to the point doctors know. just a few examples.



MistressSassy66 -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 11:48:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

a real manual for emergency intervention geared for BDSM activities ?

now before we go to wiseman's article, i don't mean an article. i mean a manual. this thing would be hundreds of pages long, and list, in detail, what to do, how and why, when. the equivalent of the paramedic's blue book, except with a BDSM focus. no psychobabble and drama, just hard facts, systematically presented, complete and wrote by someone at least competent in the field.

so does anyone know of something like that ? if not, what's your safety bible ?




I dont think there is a manual...Common Sense would be a good start,learning about the activity you want to do is a good idea also.
www.frugaldomme.com  My favorite site has lots of info and links to all kinds of things.I use it often when giving assingments for submissives to learn about certain activities.

I am with LA with breaking the no alcohol or drugs rule.
I see no reason at all that 1-3 glass of wine or beer or a couple hits of weed is going to put anyone in a bad situation.
When it comes to hard drugs that severely alter your way of thinking thats a different story,being drunk would also not be a good idea,But a beer or wine or a shot of hard alcohol hasnt done any harm in My scenes/sessions.

Not promoting that anyone does it,just commenting on My personal experiences.



mnottertail -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 11:50:59 AM)

well, if you can't chug a quart of Wild Turkey without hurling by mouth, it would seem senseless to stick said ration up your ass. If you don't think that far ahead of the curve, your explications to the doctor will be of less importance than the same to the lawyer, but it's gonna be what it is.

A torn ligament from bondage is going to look pretty much like a torn ligament from a fall.

Risk is one thing, so is treatment of minor scrapes, bruises and other trauma.

But it is impossible to make some step by step guide that goes:

place the knife gently on her nipple...
lightly trace the point of the knife about her areola...

Hol' up there dawg, knife a little too sharp???

stick some  alum on it to stop the bleeding, stick her panties in her mouth to stop the bitching....

now scrape the flat of the blade against her leg, towards her vagina (hint: for a real treat, keep a bucket of ice by the bed, with several knives in it, they freak if the steel is cold)

there is the anecdote about billy martin and yogi berra.....

yogi leaves the club by dint of his firing.

billy comes in and in the center desk drawer are two envelopes.
one is marked ... open me first.
the other is marked... open me second.

The day comes when steinbrenner and martin have the row...

He opens the first envelope......

It says, 'Blame it on me'.........

another time, another place it becomes necessary to dive into  the center drawer for wisdom.,

he opens; and reads-- 'Prepare two envelopes.........'







EvilGeoff -> RE: Caution and a lot of what iffing. (8/12/2006 12:35:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
5.   When a sub is gagged, she can choke and is unable
      to use safewords.  Hand signals can be used, but don't
      count on a sub to be able to use them.

Have the submissive hold an object in her hand.  If she is so out of it that she can't hold the object and it falls out... scene over.  Next...

quote:

6.   May subs go into sub space, and can't use safewords.
      Never assume because a sub has not used a safeword
      she is okay.

See the above hand signal...

quote:

7.   If you whip someone hard enough, they can die from a
   heart attack.

If you fuck someone hard enough they can die from a heart attack.  They can also die while swinging a flogger, or stroke out in their sleep. Yes, Virginia, there is a boogey-man to be aware of during scenes if you cause substantial injury or pain, but it's called shock (and it's a medical term, not electrical in this case), and it isn't the same thing as a heart attack.  If the person you are playing with has a heart attack, they probably would've had it the next time they did something physically taxing anyway.  That's a personal health issue, not a PLAY issue...  NEXT! 

quote:

8.   Negotiate everything ahead of time, and put things down
   on paper so there can be no misunderstanding.

This also conveniently leaves evidence behind to be used in your divorce or criminal domestic violence case as we have had recently pointed out in the news and on several web sites...

quote:

9.   A first sesion should last no longer than two hours. 

Depends on what the first session consists of don't you think?  One of my first sessions consisted of talking, establishing psychological and emotional dominance, very little in the way of physical play and lasted all freaking night.  That was more than 3 years ago and she wears my collar to this day.  An arbitrary time limit is nonsense.

quote:

10.  Be careful not to tie a sub up in a position where they
   have trouble breathing and can't say anything.

See the above hand signal

quote:

11.  Low current can be more dangerous than high current.
   Don't play with electricity if you are not an electrical
   engineer or pretty close to it.

Oh puuuhhhhhh-LEASE.  Violet wands and TENS units are not exactly causing deaths or even extreme injuries except when people go off and do incredibly stupid things with them.  Don't make a live circuit that crosses the heart.  Do not play with live household or commercial (220 volt) current.  Hell, you're more likely to get fried by your Hitachi Magic Wand than a battery operated TENS or your violet wand...

quote:

12.  There is no such thing as safe breath play.  People
    die all the time by accident from police choke holds,
    and police are trained on how to safely employ
    choke holds.

People do not "die all the time by accident from police choke holds".  Very few deaths caused by law enforcement officers occur because of someone being choked.  Far more people are shot by officers or killed in automobile accidents with a police car.

As someone who was a cop for 17 freaking years I can speak to THIS topic with some authority.  Police officers, at least at accredited law enforcement agencies, are NOT trained how to "safely" employ choke holds.  They are FORBIDDEN from employing choke holds, except when they are in a situation that justifies the use of deadly force BECAUSE of the substantial risk of death or grave bodily harm that a choke hold poses.  This is a liability issue and officers are NOT ALLOWED TO CHOKE OUT SUSPECTS EXCEPT WHEN THE OFFICER IS IN FEAR FOR HIS OWN LIFE.  Period.  Some departments might train officers how to do a choke hold, but no one is ever, EVER told that it is "safe".

Thirty years ago, yes, offers were taught to "choke out" suspects or put "sleeper holds" on them to subdue them while resisting.  Some departments were even teaching this as a subdual technique into the 90's, but it is not SOP.  Because of the huge rise in criminal cases from officer misconduct and because of wrongful death lawsuits brought by the families of people who died when being choked out, it is now a tactic of last resort.

More suspects die from cases of "positional asphyxia" than from "choke holds" being applied.  Positional asphyxia usually occurs when a suspect has to be physically restrained and is placed in a hog-tied position, face down, hands and ankles drawn sharply behind the back, the suspect is _usually_ obese.  This places strain on the diaphram, compresses the body and the suspect can't intake enough air.  Gradually they pass out, then will die from lack of oxygen if they are not found and released from the hog-tie position.

It is true - there is no such thing as "risk-free" breath play.  There are very risky ways of doing breath play, and there are not-quite-as-risky ways of doing breathplay and then there are relatively-low-risk ways of doing breathplay.  By relatively low risk I am meaning things like having the sub hold their breath as long as possible, on verbal command.  They WILL eventually start breathing again, even if you forget to tell them to breathe.... or  holding your hand over their mouth and pinching their nose closed and then holding your own breath, and not allowing them to breathe until YOU can't hold your breath any longer...  There are other relatively low risk ways of doing breath play but I'll let you do your own research from here...

quote:

13.   Find out from a sub if there are any things that
     might emotionally upset her, or cause flashbacks.

A good thought in negotiation.  Good communication is a must.  But people do not always remember past traumas, and you can still trigger emotional land mines

quote:

14.   Find out if your sub has any medical conditions,
    and their treatment.

Ditto for Dominants - this is good in negotiations, a Dominant or sub may still have unknown medical conditions.  Always play with the thought in mind that you might have to deal with your partner passing out.  Subs, what are you going to do if DomlyDom keels over from a massive heart attack and you are already trussed up like the proverbial Christmas goose?  Hmmm??

quote:

   16. Before you roast your [edited to add:] submissive over an open fire make sure to apply lots of olive oil. . . . just kidding.

Personally I prefer to baste with butter and garlic.  Or use that really yummy turkey injector marinade...

Nothing personal, Whip.  While some of the suggestions you made are fine, I can't let myth or mis-information stand un-challenged. 

YIK,
- Geoff



EvilGeoff -> RE: Does there exist (8/12/2006 12:40:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller
then we end up in discussions about how deadly anal intake of alcohol is. there are speciffic issues that need speciffic discussion. torn ligaments due to wrong suspension are absolutely typical to bdsm to the point doctors know. just a few examples.


You treat alcohol poisoning the same way, whether the alcohol is injested by mouth or enema.  You treat a torn ligament the same way whether caused by a bad suspension or falling while playing tennis.  Your "Blue Book" is no longer a first-aid or first response manual, it is becoming a "How-To-Play-Safely" manual.



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