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RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 7:43:34 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Not true. You do expect compensation for your submission. Think about it. Why are you submitting in the first place?

You were gifted with life, what do you expect from that?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 41

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 7:46:00 AM

Tamerofwild1s

Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Thanks for posting that link to the definition... it is always good to read the actual definition of words when applying them.

For those that think that all relationships and life itself is a gift it does not change an opinion

2 : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation

I do not expect compensation for my submission.

uhhh .... hmmm .... gotta disagree here juliaoceana you say you don't expect compensation for your submission ... but yet as synergy is your Dom you expect him to guide, control, dominate, and love you back so technically tho you give it to him freely you are expecting certain things to be given back and that technically is a compensation.

just me I could be wrong

man I love that line ..... gift has many meanings . and in such submission is an act not a gift ... dominance is an act not a gift

do you give it freely to your ONE .. yes . do you expect certain compensations in giving it .. yes. otherwise what is your motive to stay submissive to one person ... what is my motive to stay dominating one person.

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 42

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 7:48:14 AM

Tamerofwild1s

Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Not true. You do expect compensation for your submission. Think about it. Why are you submitting in the first place?

the 2 people who gave me that life expect that I take it and nuture it and make it grow to be the best life it can possibly be .... again expectation from a gift ?? I think so

You were gifted with life, what do you expect from that?

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 43

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 7:55:06 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

You exchange christmas gifts with someone, if you are doing so for compensation it isn't a gift anymore. If you expected a gift back but didn't get one that still does not negate your gift, if you get a gift back, you still gave a gift... Gift giving does not mean that you get nothing back.

I will argue against myself here. A gift is something that you can't take back, and I can take back my submission if I chose.. so there, I just negated my gift theory....

Sinergy thinks like you do BTW...smiles... I still think that everytime someone gives something of themselves to me, it is a big gift, why not what I give to someone else?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Tamerofwild1s)

Post #: 44

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 7:57:40 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
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Expectations are a fact of life. We all have them.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 45

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 8:04:42 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Expectations are a fact of life. We all have them.

Yes we do, even when we are giving a present to someone. We expect their gratitude, we expect them to use the gift, we expect them to value us because we gave it to them.. we expect all sorts of things when we "give" things to people. If we give a gift to a charity many of us write it off. If we donate our time we expect others to laud us for it. Just because we gift things doesn't mean there are not strings of expectation attached. If that is the definition then there are rarely gifts given in this world

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 46

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 8:21:03 AM

MasterandCommand

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/24/2004
Status: offline

LOL... Submission is not a gift... to submit yourself to another is an internal need that you are looking to satisfy. Yes, you can place a whole bunch of strings on it as well as conditions, but that isn't the point. Submission itself is a NEED that comes from within your being... it isn't like a bunch of flowers you can give somebody and walk away from. Submission... to serve, to give of yourslef, to kneel at anothers feet... in order to feel whole within yourself... that is a NEED.

Of course depending how strong that need is will depend on how you react or supress that aspect or need... many will use it as a barganing point to manipulate something they want... that doesn't negate the fact that it within itself, it is a need... fulfilled or unfulfilled has not bearing... it is not a GIFT except to those that have a strong pride, ego. or attitude placing themselves above others. It is not really that special because there are hundreds of thousands of women that have the same need... It is just that American woman are programmed to believe the myth that they are better than everybody else and that they "Deserve" everything just becasue they are women... Watch any TV program and you can see what I mean... TV teaches that men are bafoons and women save the day, or that men are abusers and women are victims... This programming is one of the main reasons American women have such a difficult time having relationships... They are programmed by the media then they come to forums such as this to get reinforcement of that negative or dysfunctional programming...

No I am not saying that media is the only source, nor am I saying that the American men are not being programmed as well... I am saying that there are a very few people in the world that can see the magnatude depth of the Sociatial forming / programming that is happening...

Hmmmm... if I had time I would write a lengthy paper on this subject... Psychological transformation of perception and behavior controlled by Sociatial Programming...

(One minor point is that a gift is given without strings attached and without any expectations of a return or even acknologement... something that is beyond the reach of 99% of all people I have come across becasue America society trains women to give with strings... then bitch and whine about). The only people I have lived with that totally understands this concept as well as applies it in all things is the American Indians...

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 47

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 9:09:23 AM

Evanesce

Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
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quote:

I could go on indefinitely, but if those expectations are not met, I'm packing up my marbles and going home.

this -* to me *- is the difference between submission and slavery.

A slave does regardless of anything. I'm merely making a point not suggesting that your viewpoint is wrong.

I don't see it as a difference at all. Even a slave has the right to expect their Owner to live up to what they've promised, and to have their needs met. As the Kaptin's slave, serving Him "regardless of anything" means He can pretty much do whatever He wants to do and I'm still going to be here. However, it does not include His failure to live up to the agreement He made when I was collared. If that is broken, then the relationship is broken.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich

(in reply to Wolfie648)

Post #: 48

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 9:18:23 AM

onestandingstill

Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

I disagree with the OP I think submission when first turned over to a Dom is indeed a gift I choose to bestow upon them. Giving them my will, life, mind, and body sure as hell seems like I'm giving them something of great value to me.
I do think it has some selfish undertones, but so do each and every friendship we create in our lives. Does that mean it's a bad thing? Does that mean it's a one sided gift? I say no. As I give the gift of my submission fully to my one, he'll give me the precious gift of his dominance and leadership. To me it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's more like a co-dependent gift to me.

This will be a debate in the community forever. I stand firm on TO ME it absolutely is a HUGE gift I give someone I allow to own me.

Suzanne

(in reply to masterzone)

Post #: 49

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 10:38:49 AM

bigdaninwi

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/31/2005
Status: offline

Sitting here thinking..why do traditional marriage vows say: "I, (Bride/Groom), take you (Groom/Bride), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part."

Why don't they say something like "recieve this gift of my Love."

This leads me to ask..in collaring ceremonies..is it take or recieve?

I don't mean to take over the question, but it does seem that traditionally we agressively take what is being offered. Is that a gift? If so, why isn't it...recieve the gift of my Love for you to honor and cherish?

(in reply to masterzone)

Post #: 50

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 10:44:05 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigdaninwi

Sitting here thinking..why do traditional marriage vows say: "I, (Bride/Groom), take you (Groom/Bride), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part."

Why don't they say something like "recieve this gift of my Love."

This leads me to ask..in collaring ceremonies..is it take or recieve?

I don't mean to take over the question, but it does seem that traditionally we agressively take what is being offered. Is that a gift? If so, why isn't it...recieve the gift of my Love for you to honor and cherish?

Marriages have different vows all over the world, and some places they have no vows at all, in this country many people make up their own vows when getting married, and they could easily replace traditonal vows with the ones that you posted above... those vows are Judea-Christian vows, not universal vows....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to bigdaninwi)

Post #: 51

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 10:45:54 AM

Tamerofwild1s

Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline

yea . its a double scoop of Rocky Road dammmmit ... now I'm hungry ....

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 52

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 10:57:52 AM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

At best.. it's a "loan"

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 53

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 11:01:42 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Generally, the gift of submission has been re-gifted so often as to make it valueless in any circumstance. Many out here have given it to the 'One' many times.

Perhaps it is a gift of mastery that when accepting the 'gift' one does not outwardly show the chagrin and accompanying internal shivver of the soul.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/17/2006 11:03:58 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to LotusSong)

Post #: 54

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 11:04:23 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Mnottertail makes a good point. I wonder if anyone has ever asked for a refund after opening someone's "gift"? LOL

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 55

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 11:18:56 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
...We expect their gratitude, we expect them to use the gift, we expect them to value us because we gave it to them.. we expect all sorts of things when we "give" things to people. If we give a gift to a charity many of us write it off. If we donate our time we expect others to laud us for it. Just because we gift things doesn't mean there are not strings of expectation attached. If that is the definition then there are rarely gifts given in this world.

this slave wholeheartedly disagrees with everything you wrote except for the last 8 words, so please leave her out of the "we" you are talking about. this slave had many lessons on gifts, especially growing up.

the way this slave was raised, if there is an expectation of ANYTHING attached, even gratitude, the whole idea of "gift" is lost, and it becomes the "goods" end of a transaction, some sort of "barter" arrangement with the "payment" being whatever is expected in return.

this was hammered out in detail every year as this slave's birthday would approach and she would ask if she could invite a friend, or two, to her birthday party (traditionally held with only mom,dad,brother,sister and family dog in attendance). the answer was always no, the reason (condensed version here) = it was tantamount to "begging for gifts".

Mom used to give cash to the folks outside the grocery store too, the ones with the "will work for food" signs. one day after she had given them some money an anonymous woman approached her on the way to her car and admonished her for what she did---"don't you know they will just go spend it on booze or drugs!!!!!" to which she replied, "so what, i don't care what they do with it, if it brings them the only comfort they will know today, then so be it, AND it is none of your business anyway, it certainly isn't your money, or mine anymore for that matter, as soon as i gave it." (and no, she didn't ask them for a receipt so she could write it off, either.)

to the OP: it is this slave's humble opinion that the life and times this slave has been blessed to live is a gift, from the Great Architect. the relationship that Master and His slave enjoy is the result of many gifts we have been given by others, as well as gifts we have given to each other.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/17/2006 11:21:16 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 56

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 11:41:11 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Then you are the only person I have ever encountered that had no expectation of the gifts she gave on even an unconsious level. If someone doesn't appreciate a heartfelt gift it has hurt my feelings. If someone didn't use my gift, I would think about how others would have and it was wasted on them. Im completely honest about this, although for the most part in my evolution as a person, I have come to expect less and less from others and more from myself as a rule. I gave people gifts to give them joy, and if it didn't, yes, in my expectation that they would derive joy from it if it that expectation was not met I have been let down.

They do not owe anything to me as a result of my gift giving. It is why I say love is a gift... no I do not expect to be loved in return for giving someone my love. Because I have given the gift of my submission, I do not expect an even trade of something, or anything for that matter, although I have to say that I am free to take back that gift, it was still a gift while I was giving it. Every moment of submission or dominance is a gift in that moment.. we only have moments. My Dom doesn't think of it as a gift, and that is ok, I do not need him to, nor expect him to....smiles.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 57

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 11:43:43 AM

indigo302

Posts: 127
Joined: 4/28/2004
From: Delaware
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Generally, the gift of submission has been re-gifted so often as to make it valueless in any circumstance. Many out here have given it to the 'One' many times.

Ron

Touche! it's the velcro collar syndrome....here today, gone tomorrow!

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 58

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 12:22:56 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

No I am not saying that media is the only source, nor am I saying that the American men are not being programmed as well... I am saying that there are a very few people in the world that can see the magnatude depth of the Sociatial forming / programming that is happening...

Hmmmm... if I had time I would write a lengthy paper on this subject... Psychological transformation of perception and behavior controlled by Sociatial Programming...

One can only hope that you find a very skilled editor.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to MasterandCommand)

Post #: 59

RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 1:22:08 PM

HollyS

Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

Truly I think there's room for both opinions here. Let me start with this definition (thank you julia) because it doesn't contain anything about expectations in it -- only action:

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
For those that think that all relationships and life itself is a gift it does not change an opinion

2 : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation

Now that being said, it is easy for me to agree with this statement as well, as it takes the concept of "gift" out of the abstract and puts it in the context of a working relationship:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
the relationship that Master and His slave enjoy is the result of many gifts we have been given by others, as well as gifts we have given to each other.

People need to stop thinking of submission as the equivilant of a book or a bottle of scotch. A person who submits to another chooses it each time they bow head and bend knee (degree of choice is another matter all together). The implication that people are helpless in the face of their "need" creates a paradigm of "the submissive automoton", randomly submitting to whomever falls in their path. Statements like these set my teeth on edge:

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
Submission isn't always voluntary... there are those who are submissives by choice of course... but there are many whos' submission is within them. For these people, they do cannot control who they submit to... their submission just occurs, there is no conscious decision , voluntary or not...

Hunger is a biological need, but I choose whether to satisfy that need with a chicken breast or a Big Mac. Sometimes I need to eat but find no good options available and instead choose to go hungry for the time being. Othertimes I'm so hungry I'll choose something bad for me, on the theory that something is better than nothing (I usually pay dearly for this choice later in my day). Relating this to the "need" to submit, a similar person has a myriad of choices before them over who specifically to submit to. It is my contention that healthy people who enter long-term relationships grounded in D/s/M/s choose their partner(s) very carefully and for specific reasons. It's not "selfish" in the sense of "all about me" but rather a form of self-care aimed at making the relationship last. Out of all the possible dominant and submissive people in the world, we choose who we do because we find them worthy of what we have to offer, not because we expect tit-for-tat response for our efforts. This is true for both Dom and sub alike and beth hit it right on the head: in lasting relationships, the two people give positively to each other and both are better for the effort.

If it bothers you to think of submission in terms of a "gift" because of personal baggage surrounding that word, then don't. There is no contradiction, though, in giving a gift to one whom you find most deserving. Otherwise the person receiving your submission could be anyone off the street, anyone at all. Compensation isn't the issue here. Rather, is what you have to offer worth that little?

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 60

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