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Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 1:52:20 AM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		I have a bit of a query to put to all submissives/slaves and Doms/Dommes....

Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism?

Doms/Domme: If you were deciding to make a major life change such as vegetarianism, would you expect your sub/slave to join you in it? If not, why? If so, why?

I have owned my slave for about a year and a half. We have been living together for about a year. Prior to meeting him I was a Vegetarian for almost three years. I got very anemic and added meat back into my diet. However recently I have been having some problems eating meat (none are health related) and have decided to slowly resume my former vegetarian diet. I plan on requiring my slave to also become a vegetarian. I do not think I could stand to be around someone who is consuming meat after I finally go totally vegetarian. My slave has some issues with this. He doesn't want to fully comply with this requirement without sort of coming to the decision on his own moral terms. Seafood, a chronic debate in vegetarianism, is the most intensive disagreement for him. I have a LOT of reasons to disagree with the consumption of seafood, and would require him to stop eating seafood as well. He hasn't outright refused to comply with my decision, but he is definitely trying to negotiate. I tend to have a lot of mixed feelings about how to approach this issue. I sort of feel like there are shades of grey in being a slave. I understand that the ideal for many people is total slavery and obediance in all things, but I do not believe that has a lot of realistic application in my own life. I encourage him to keep an open discussion with me about how he feels about things, as well as encouraging him to obey my final decision on things.

But I understand that someone's diet is a very emotional thing for many people. Food is intimately connected to our daily lives and whole sub cultures are built around diet choices.

All in all I am curious to see what different people say about this topic as I haven't seen anything posted recently about anything close to it.

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 2:25:19 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		You're the D and he's the s, so he should do as you say. Now, having said that, I don't see anything wrong with your discussing this with him and trying to work to get him to a place in his head where he can go vegetarian. If it were me, I wouldn't require it, but I'm going to eat what I want to eat, and I follow a fairly rigid eating routine, so they would have to eat a rather healthy diet. Good luck to the both of you.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 2:26:31 AM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		I suppose a moral issue might be something to enforce on a sub. But was the issue ever mentioned as such in the beginnings?
I can imagine many things that might bother Me in a D/s relationship, that are somewhat outside the usual D/s basics. Politics, religious/spiritual things.
I think it would come down to the real interference that it causes. And what level of submission covers certain things? I have expectations. But of course there are endless points of difference that I have not considered.
Food is one I hadn't thought of in any aspect other than overconsumption or smelliness.
Food can be such a pleasure. You might consider that it is a very great and continuous denial of a simple pleasure. That could end up being a hard and harsh limit.


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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:11:46 AM   
mistoferin


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Status: offline 		As a submissive, I would give it conisderation....provided of course that the Dom/Domme could show me how I could get a COMPLETE protein while following a strictly vegetarian diet and that the reasons for the diet were rooted in health and not for some irrational reason like "I can't eat Bambi". This of course would never occur though because it is impossible to get a complete protein without adding some form of animal protein in the diet. Human beings are carnivores....our bodies are not designed to be sustained entirely by plant life. I have always believed that Dominants should try to do what is best for their sub/slave, so I guess that I would have an issue with being required to adhere to a nutritional regimen that did not provide all of the essential things that my body needs. 

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:18:56 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		erin, if you combine certain non-meat foods you can get complete protein in a diet.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:21:48 AM   
Nikolette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

As a submissive, I would give it conisderation....provided of course that the Dom/Domme could show me how I could get a COMPLETE protein while following a strictly vegetarian diet and that the reasons for the diet were rooted in health and not for some irrational reason like "I can't eat Bambi". This of course would never occur though because it is impossible to get a complete protein without adding some form of animal protein in the diet. Human beings are carnivores....our bodies are not designed to be sustained entirely by plant life. I have always believed that Dominants should try to do what is best for their sub/slave, so I guess that I would have an issue with being required to adhere to a nutritional regimen that did not provide all of the essential things that my body needs.


Well, I suppose there is some room for debate about this. Although I definitely disagree and perhaps should note that my becoming anemic previously was due to my living environment, and having inadequte resources to prepare proper meals for myself. Namely having NO kitchen to either prepare my food or store it, since I was living in a tiny economy apartment years ago.

The reasoning behind my encouraging him to become a vegetarian is very intimate and ethical for me. I believe that its perfectly possible to have a healthy diet being a vegan, I have several friends who are vegans (and eat NO animal products at all, and keep up on their blood work to check for problems on an anual basis). This aspect isn't really a concern for him, or me. I have professional cooking experience and some training as a nutritionist, so I am totally confidant in my ability to keep us both healthy.

I hope this doesn't become an ethics debate on vegetarianism as a preference personally, but rather a conversation about the delicate areas of limits and how Dom/me's apply moral regulations to subs/slaves.

Additionally, I was never trying to make a moral statement to anyone else, I am quite satisfied with individuals making their own choices, aside from ones I own, of course.

< Message edited by Nikolette -- 8/17/2006 3:24:40 AM >

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:23:25 AM   
darkinshadows


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If it was the dominants desire, I comply.  You can always both go to your local surgery and discuss with a doctor or nutritionist so any fears he may have can be talked through.  I just see this situation as something that is just natural submission.
 
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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:29:57 AM   
Nikolette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

I suppose a moral issue might be something to enforce on a sub. But was the issue ever mentioned as such in the beginnings?




This issue wasn't really mentioned directly in the begining, although from the begining I have been very clear that I would require him to adjust to my standards of integrity and ethics. One deeper aspect of my Dominance is to nurture and guide those under my wing into a direction that is definitely my opinion of a "right" way to live. I did make it clear I had been a vegetarian previously and might become again, and it was possible I would want him too as well. But these were really really loose hypothetical situations. I definitely didn't say from the get go "Listen... meat is off the plate if you want to be owned by me!"... I would have said so, if I could have been sure I would turn this direction again.

(edited for typos in late late late night posting)

< Message edited by Nikolette -- 8/17/2006 3:31:56 AM >

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:36:24 AM   
sharainks


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Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		You most definately can get complete proteins from plant food.  The idea that you can't is because very few people out there including dieticians and doctors really have taken the time to try to understand a vegetarian diet let alone a vegan one. 

For those who want to read more about the health benefits of a plant based diet, including decreased risk factors for cancer and other diseases you might start with "The China Study" Another great book is "Eat to Live."  You can also google healing+foods. 

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:44:39 AM   
mistoferin


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Status: offline 		Wow, I wasn't trying to offend you, I was simply answering the question and give my own reasonings as to why I wouldn't consider such. With some nutritional education in my own background, I personally don't believe that a strict vegan diet offers complete nutrition. One can come much closer with an Ovo-Lacto diet in my opinion. I am not trying to say that it is unhealthy....I just believe that it is not optimally healthy. I know and have known many people of the vegetarian persuasion....and very few of them have any real grasp on nutrition. Far more often I find them existing on salad and peanut butter sandwiches instead of educating themselves on what consitutes a healthy vegetarian plan. Very few of them incorporate many of the most important nutritional sources into their diets.

Anyhow, I wasn't knocking your decision to eat whatever way you choose....just stating my own thoughts on it. It clearly isn't something that I would give heavy consideration to.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:54:27 AM   
twicehappy


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Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		On one hand i can agree that a slave should follow their owners desires, on the other i can see that there are going to be limits to this. This is the reason most subs/slaves seek owners whose lifestyle resembles their own.

I cannot say that diet would fall into the same category as religious or political issues but for some it may.

How hard of a stance is your slave taking on this issue?

This is a major lifestyle change and it sounds like one that was not negotiated prior to his being collared. You may expect him to adhere to the moral and ethical code you presented as yours when you collared him but what you present is a good question; can you expect his to change with yours?

All relationships, even vanilla ones have to deal with change but sometimes these changes are so extreme they dissolve the relationship.

An example; If Scooter were to come home from work declaring" i now hate motorcycles and i am never riding again" i could accept that though it would be very difficult for me. But if he came home and stated" i now hate motorcycles and am never riding again and you are forbidden to ride again" that would eventually cause the dissolution of the relationship.

Don't get me wrong here, i am not saying riding is more important than the fact that i am collared and i love him, but eventually there would be problems. For one when i entered the relationship it was not an issue, we both enjoyed this thing, for two it would feel like he was stripping away something that has been a part of me for 32 years. And lastly the craving to ride would overcome everything and i would eventually just ride thereby failing my owner, violating my collar and inflicting guilt and resentment on both of us.

So you have to ask yourself is this an issue that is so very important to you that you are willing to take the chance?

Maybe ask him to try being a vegetarian with out the pressure, it may work. But be prepared to renegotiate if he cannot adapt or run the risk of this becoming one of those do or die issues every relationship faces at some point.  



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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:58:13 AM   
sharainks


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Status: offline 		Maybe I get defensive about vegetarian stuff as well but there are things you don't have to worry about if you don't eat animals.  Mad cow is one and I don't believe the beef supply in this country is safe.  There are versions of this showing up in wild animals as well, probably because some of them get into pastures and eat food that is fed to cattle.  If you leave dairy alone your incidence of cancer and especially breast and prostate cancer is lower. 

Quite simply they are feeding stuff to the animals that people are eating that flat isn't safe. It does go into their flesh, it goes into their milk, and in return we are exposed to it.  Its done to make them give more milk, get larger so the feedlot earns more, etc.  If one takes the time to educate themselves on the dangers of having animal based products in their diet and decides to do that its no different than any other choice you make. 

However, if one doesn't educate themselves about what is in their food and thinks the govt will make sure their food is safe they are wrong. 

Here are a couple of places to start

http://www.madcowboy.com/
http://www.notmilk.com/

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 3:59:16 AM   
Nikolette


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Status: offline 		mistoferin... It was really the word "Irrational" that was offensive, if anything. Since my reasoning is based around my own personal ethics, rather than a belief that meat is "bad" for someone. But I wasn't really offended in any case and just wanted to explain more indepth.

Nutritional concerns are an important aspect to consider when taking this step. And you are ABSOLUTELY right in saying that many vegetarians do not know how to care for themselves (let alone another person). They do not understand the deep ramifications toward being a vegetarian, and the risk of becoming UNhealthy in their plight. During my time as a vegetarian where I became anemic, I was more along the lines of a salad and peanut butter eater type. Though this wasn't because I didn't know better. I have the ability to make soy protein versions of pretty much all dairy and through supplements and vitamins, complex and simple carbohydrates and proteins really am confidant to keep a handle on our health. But I digress.

I think its an interesting point to make that some submissives might be like "Ah... are you going to allow my body to self cannibalize and become harmed?!" My slave is secure in this not happening, but it definitely SHOULD be a concern for other submissives who may have someone making abrupt choices on their behalf. Often people think its alright just to wake up and not eat meat, but there is a process and a slowness to making any major dietary change like this- either going vegetarian, or back to meat eating both.

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 4:11:24 AM   
Nikolette


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Status: offline 		twicehappy

Yes, this really wasn't something I directly talked to him about. And really I am profoundly proud of him for how agreeable he has been. This isn't going to be a hard limit for him, I know that he will respect the choice I make for us regarding this. I know he respects my choices and my opinions and my leadership.

I think your suggestion to take some pressure off is probably an ideal suggestion. I often get stubborn (not necessarily a totally Domme trait, but definitely one of MINE!) and passionately inflamed with human and animal rights.

He never had any individual interest in vegetarianism personally, and this has been something I have casually mentioned to him for many months now (definitely over six) but its been more along the lines of "I am really having difficulties managing to find meat appetizing, I am probably going to go back to vegetarianism soon, and I will want you to adjust your food with me" These types of elusive comments haven't really led him to making any psychological adjustments of "Okay, there WILL come a day where I am going to be asked not to consume some really specific things."

I really appreciated your insight.

While food isn't really like a religious or political issue... people really are deeply emotionally connected to it in a way that sort of transends their awareness. This wasn't something I was totally aware of until I became a vegetarian. People have actually... literally acted personally upset that I used to NOT eat meat. It was a startling shock for me that people had such strong opinions about someone ELSE's diet, let alone their own. I'll give him additional positive reinforcement and offer some compassionate patience and understanding as he takes this on... really the more I think about how his position must be and the pressure he must feel, I really am happy that he's reacted so accomidating thus far!

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 4:22:06 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolette

I have a bit of a query to put to all submissives/slaves and Doms/Dommes....

Subs/slaves: How would you react and feel about your Owner expecting you to join them in vegetarianism?

Doms/Domme: If you were deciding to make a major life change such as vegetarianism, would you expect your sub/slave to join you in it? If not, why? If so, why?

However recently I have been having some problems eating meat (none are health related) and have decided to slowly resume my former vegetarian diet. I plan on requiring my slave to also become a vegetarian. I do not think I could stand to be around someone who is consuming meat after I finally go totally vegetarian.



For some reason I'm getting a vivid image of someone finding God and requiring their submissive to do the same. This is your personal revelation, the light bulb going on so to speak. However, it is clear that your submissive hasn't reached the same point. I referenced religion for a specific reason. If you decided to follow a different path would the expectation that he'd follow still hold true? People have to be very careful about forcing their beliefs on others. I don't see this as a D/s issue at all. In fact, I would probably react the same if you approached me in this vain.

Rather than force him you can highlight the benefits of making dietary changes and even introduce new menu items in over a period of time. Most people are willing to try new things. But when we feel like something is being rammed down our throats the natural reaction is to resist. There's another issue you're quietly ignoring. You've candidly stated that you wouldn't remain with someone that couldn't adhere to this lifestyle. I hope you're prepared to act on those words if you've uttered them aloud. He could always call your bluff. Then what?

porcelaine

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 4:27:24 AM   
twicehappy


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Status: offline 		You have a very open mind i can tell by your answer, he is a lucky boy. Smiles.....

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 4:34:26 AM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		porcelaine:

Well, then I suppose we would seperate, if he got to a point where he really just HAD to do that. I think its a point I wouldn't be able to accept since we live together. It would be somewhat different if we didn't have some gentle ideas of marriage and a complete life bond on the table, and were living apart, eating mostly apart. Additionally, I am certain, beyond any doubt that he would rather give up meat than me.

I am definitely aware that it would be forcing my beliefs on him, which to varying degrees I find acceptable in my property. I mean, I force my beliefs on him about what kind of underwear he has, when he orgasms, when he must do chores, when he must attend to me... these are ALL my opinions, beliefs etc. The basic premis of our relationship is that he has agreed to go along with all of these things in complete ownership.

On one side of things I never said vegetarianism was going to be a must, but on the other side of things he said ANYthing would be acceptable. Now ... as in my first statement, I do know that some of that ideal doesn't have room in daily application.

There were steps I made to encourage him to find this "light" so to speak on his own. He was appalled at acts of (in our opinions) cruelty that are common place in the meat industry, and was distressed to learn of environmental concerns as well. I've been slowly introducing more vegetarian meals into our diet, simply because I am the one who cooks and I cook what I can eat. He didn't have any real qualms with leaving beef and pork to the way side... but had some difficulties in finding any such inspiration with seafood, a personal delight for him.

I don't think I would ever REALLY believe that forcing someone to restrict their diet would be the same as trying to force them to enter a faith based religion where I would compromise what they believed to be their eternal salvation. This is not something I would even consider, or would ever be an issue for me. So, I am a little put off by the comparison.

< Message edited by Nikolette -- 8/17/2006 4:41:26 AM >

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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 4:39:27 AM   
Nikolette


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

You have a very open mind i can tell by your answer, he is a lucky boy. Smiles.....


Thank you so much! I really feel like both of us have been lucky in having each other. I am polyamorous and my continued search has really only highlighted how rare our connection really is. It would have been just as difficult for me to find someone else who is so close to mirroring my own direction in life, as it would have been for him to find a satisfying Domina, so we both made out rather splendidly!




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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 4:44:18 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

I am definitely aware that it would be forcing my beliefs on him, which to varying degrees I find acceptable in my property. I mean, I force my beliefs on him about what kind of underwear he has, when he orgasms, when he must do chores, when he must attend to me... these are ALL my opinions, beliefs etc. The basic premis of our relationship is that he has agreed to go along with all of these things in complete ownership.

I think that this is a major point.  People are talking about diet as if its finding God or affiliating to a politcal party.
Clothing, food, orgasms are not religion - are not politics.  And if it isn't a negative influence diet wise, I fail to see why one would not comply.  If he has a impossible dislike for veg, fruit and non meat products then yes, I can see a difficulty - but if its purely hitting a brick wall because hes just going to miss his seafood, or miss his meat - then I would seriously wonder where his submission lies.  Is he happy only in submitting when it suits him?  Ifso, how does that make you feel?  Can you deal with that - is that something you can deal with on a personal and emotional level. 
 
But comparing vegetarianism to politics or religion is going way off base.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Forced Vegetarianism??? - 8/17/2006 4:45:13 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Nikolette,

Maybe you could begin to integrate meals without meat in your and his diet slowly.  So many people just don't think outside the box when it comes to meals without meat.  When I first started trying to cook and eat vegetarian I felt lost at first.  Then I was grateful, because I had gotten very tired of the same old foods over and over.  Becoming vegetarian made me look outside the box and expand my ideas about what a meal is.

There are plenty of good vegetarian and vegan cookbooks out there.  There is no need for anyone to be miserable on a plant based diet.  Life can still include delicious cakes, breads, and wonderfully filling meals without the use of products that come from animals.  I make a tofu and soymilk based "ice cream" that tastes just like a chocolate malt.

Some people think vegetarian is plates full of vegetables and nothing else.  What I found is that is expanded my horizons considerably.


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