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Beliefs - 8/17/2006 6:12:10 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Something that was said on the vegetarian thread got me thinking about what we expect from our partners in regards to their beliefs. Rather than hijack that thread with it I thought it would be more appropriate to start a new post.

It was said on the other thread that vegetarianism could not be a belief that was on the same level as religious or political beliefs. While I tend to agree that religious beliefs would generally be far greater for most people....I am not so sure about politics.

If the reasoning for the vegetarianism is one of ethics...that is often a very strong belief that generally has an emotional component to it. We all have many beliefs and decide within ourselves what we consider to be ethical. Through our lives we adopt our own code that we feel comfortable living by....the ethics that work for us.

My question is...do you feel that your partner needs to have the same code or if theirs differs do you feel that they have to realign theirs to sync with yours? Especially in the case of Dominants...do you feel that if your submissive/slave does not realign themselves to match yourself....do you see that as insubordinate or unsubmissive behavior?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 6:24:03 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		If you are going to collar someone their interest should be mostly what yours are. I dont think you should have to try to completly reprogram someone to your way of thinking. This should all be discussed before the collar anyway.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 6:28:13 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		I think the same issues exist for all couples.  A Dom has no right to
expect anything .  Every MAJOR thing needs to be negotiated before
hand.  That is what makes the relationship consensual. 

(in reply to Dnomyar)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 6:44:00 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
My question is...do you feel that your partner needs to have the same code or if theirs differs do you feel that they have to realign theirs to sync with yours? Especially in the case of Dominants...do you feel that if your submissive/slave does not realign themselves to match yourself....do you see that as insubordinate or unsubmissive behavior?


I think on the "things that matter" we should be aligned, but I'm a big enough girl to know how to be in a relationship happily with someone and disagree with them on things. 

However, I do know doms who want their slave to learn to love everything the dom loves and dislike everything the dom dislikes. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 6:49:40 AM   
mountainpet


Posts: 40
Joined: 6/24/2005
Status: offline 		I think it is desirable for both people to agree, or at least be able to compromise, on issues that affect them as a couple.  Religious differences can be deal breakers for some; yet others handle them very well. 

My husband and I rarely agree on political issues- our votes normally offset each other. 

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 6:53:40 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I think that interests and belief should match as closely as possible for the benefit of the relationship. No I don't see it as unsubmissive or insubordinate at all, just a possible speed bump in the relationship.

I spent two years getting to know my sub before I collared him. Because I don't hand collars out easily, this is only my 2nd in many years. I wanted to make sure that we were as compatible as possible and making sure our belief was fairly matching was a big part of that.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to mountainpet)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:01:49 AM   
Littlepita


Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I think on the "things that matter" we should be aligned, but I'm a big enough girl to know how to be in a relationship happily with someone and disagree with them on things. 


I'm in total agreement with what LA says here. I also agree with WhipTheHip and think that everything, especially the big issues need to be negotiated. My Dom and I are of slightly different religions and it has been negotiated that I will maintain my own faith and not be expected to embrace his. We also differ slightly on politics and enjoy each others opinions and our debates. Not a problem with veggies, we both love them!




_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:07:35 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
do you feel that your partner needs to have the same code or if theirs differs do you feel that they have to realign theirs to sync with yours? Especially in the case of Dominants...do you feel that if your submissive/slave does not realign themselves to match yourself....do you see that as insubordinate or unsubmissive behavior?


Only in part.
Part of MY belief is that religion/belief is a matter between each individual and the divine in any manner that the individual percieves it.

I won't 'interfear' with the beliefs of a girl of Mine and I will NOT tollerate her trying to do so with Me. EVEN if she is of a religion that sees her 'duty' to 'save' Me. That is very much a hard limit and if she tried anything of the like then she would be out the damn door so fast that her feet wouldn't touch the floor!

So long as she accepts that My beliefs are Mine and hers are her own, fine. We can even discuss theology, philosophy, meta physics, whatever without a problem.

There are some values, not based on religion however that I do expect to be conformed with Honesty and Truthfulness being the main two.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:12:36 AM   
NotNowNotLater


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

My question is...do you feel that your partner needs to have the same code or if theirs differs do you feel that they have to realign theirs to sync with yours?

Absolutly not. HOw boring that would be.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:21:18 AM   
Tamerofwild1s


Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		beliefs are just that beliefs . things we act on because to us the individual they are important as to how we conduct ourselves on a day to day basis . they are the makeup of who we are.
 
that being said when we become interested in someone it is based on their beliefs .. the beliefs create the individual .... not every slave who has ever served me has had the same beliefs. Me personally I would not try and change those beliefs at all .. I try and work around them as they are the make up of the person I became interested in. if we as Dominants change the beliefs of a person simply because they don't coincide with our beliefs aren't we simply trying to create a new person out of the one we became interested in. Sometimes in doing such we create a riff in the dynamics of the person we have become interested in as well and this over a period of time will cause a resentment from the person we are trying to control. MY opinion is it is better to create a household that flows between each persons beliefs and coincides with them. Avoid subjects if it will cause heated resentments ....

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:24:48 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

My question is...do you feel that your partner needs to have the same code or if theirs differs do you feel that they have to realign theirs to sync with yours?


Simply put - No there was no requirement that beth had to realign her "code". Examples? she's a smoker, I'm not. she tends to be liberal in her politics, I'm more pragmatic with 'conservative' leaning. she's VERY religious, and I'm a "swear there ain't no heaven-pray there ain't no hell", recovering catholic guy. My definition and hers of "social conscience" and responsibility are definitely not aligned. There are many other 'codes' that don't align.

The only requirement I had when meeting beth, or anyone was honesty. I didn't want them to pretend they were anything to please me. beth and I have very interesting discussions on subjects we are in disagreement. More than needing to align, there is a need to not consider unaligning as an attack. Intellectual debate and discussions are an essential part of an ongoing relationship because you'll be having a conversation much more often than you'll be having sex or a "scene".

The broad foundation of our relationship is beth is my slave and I am her Master. We live by rules and contract spelling out the definition of those titles and the important responsibilities we both have in fulfilling our individual commitment to our relationship. One of the key requirements is honesty and personal integrity. As much as I can place a demand on beth to behave as I wish, any such order against her "code" would be in opposition to her maintaining her required personal integrity. The issue comes up often, especially on the subject of her smoking.

That isn't to say we don't each try to influence the other's "code". That's the fun part of the debate. We intellectually stimulate each other almost as much as we physically stimulate each other. "Code's" may be amended through such a debate, but force (in my opinion) ultimately results in resentment. Resentment is NOT a good foundation brick for a relationship.

I had only 2 hard limit "codes" outside of lifestyle, back in the searching days. I required that the person NOT be a Red Sox fan and have the ability to tolerate my desire to listen to Bruce Springsteen music. What I didn't say, but was one of the most important requirements was that whatever "code" they had, they exhibited the confidence to speak it even if it was in direct opposition to mine. My reason was simple. If they could be confident in "code" issues that were in opposition to mine, they would be confident in being a submissive meshing with my dominance.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/17/2006 7:37:21 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:24:56 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Do you feel that your partner needs to have the same code or if theirs differs do you feel that they have to realign theirs to sync with yours? Especially in the case of Dominants...do you feel that if your submissive/slave does not realign themselves to match yourself....do you see that as insubordinate or unsubmissive behavior?



Most certainly. If base beliefs are not aligned, value systems will likely be incongruent, and this in its own way will work to subvert authority over time. This is not a new idea in the least. For both the Christian god and I offer similar commandments: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.




(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:28:32 AM   
Tikkiee


Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

My question is...do you feel that your partner needs to have the same code or if theirs differs do you feel that they have to realign theirs to sync with yours?


Simply put - No there was no requirement that beth had to realign her "code". Examples? she's a smoker, I'm not. she tends to be liberal in her politics, I'm more pragmatic with 'conservative' leaning. she's VERY religious, and I'm a "swear there ain't no heave-pray there ain't no hell", recovering catholic guy. My definition and hers of "social conscience" and responsibility are definitely not aligned. There are many other 'codes' that don't align.

The only requirement I had when meeting beth, or anyone was honesty. I didn't want them to pretend they were anything to please me. beth and I have very interesting discussions on subjects we are in disagreement. More than needing to align, there is a need to not consider unaligning as an attack. Intellectual debate and discussions are an essential part of an ongoing relationship because you'll be having a conversation much more often than you'll be having sex or a "scene".

The broad foundation of our relationship is beth is my slave and I am her Master. We live by rules and contract spelling out the definition of those titles and the important responsibilities we both have in fulfilling our individual commitment to our relationship. One of the key requirements is honesty and personal integrity. As much as I can place a demand on beth to behave as I wish, any such order against her "code" would be in opposition to her maintaining her required personal integrity. The issue comes up often, especially on the subject of her smoking.

That isn't to say we don't each try to influence the other's "code". That's the fun part of the debate. We intellectually stimulate each other almost as much as we physically stimulate each other. "Code's" may be amended through such a debate, but force (in my opinion) ultimately results in resentment. Resentment is NOT a good foundation brick for a relationship.

I had only 2 hard limit "codes" outside of lifestyle, back in the searching days. I required that the person NOT be a Red Sox fan and have the ability to tolerate my desire to listen to Bruce Springsteen music. What I didn't say, but was one of the most important requirements was that whatever "code" they had, they exhibited the confidence to speak it even if it was in direct opposition to mine. My reason was simple. If they could be confident in "code" issues that were in opposition to mine, they would be confident in being a submissive meshing with my dominance.

Perfectly said, right here. No need to say it again.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:33:50 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		My partner must have similar beliefs to my own. There are things I do not care if they feel the same way or see the same way, but there are core beliefs they must have in order for me to even consider them as a mate.

Political views are near the top of the list for me. I am not talking about political affiliation either, I am talking about beliefs. I need to be with someone that feels the environment is important, that education is important, and that war is not fought for the little people, but enriches the few. I need to be with someone that feels service to others is important.

I am not the same religion as my Daddy really, but spiritually we see the world in much the same way..We do not talk about supreme beings, because it is not important to me that he believes in one. If his moral compass is close to mine, I do not see the path he chose to get to that place as a deal breaker in a relationship for me. I would probably not date a Muslim for example, and I would not date a Protestant, although I might date a Catholic. I have been interested in a Jewish dom in the past... as long as their core beliefs are similiar to mine, that is all that is important. I do not want someone who is trying to "save" me in my life, or feels I would be displeasing for this reason.

I do think there would be subtle pressure to change my core belief systems, and I can have good discussions and debates without someone that is diametrically opposed to the core of my being. I talk about these things too much just to skip over them with my Dominant. I do not want a huge laundry list of off limits conversations I cannot have with him. It would make me unhappy. We do not agree about everything, but there must be enough common ground to be respectful when the disagreement comes. Unless someone shares your core beliefs it probably isn't going to happen

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/17/2006 7:34:11 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:37:20 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I think this is a very sensitive issue; there are things that while not particularly of a religious or political nature that could still be felt as such. The vegetarian thread was a good example.

For the most part i think we all choose or would be wise to choose partners who are on the same level as we are. Or at least open minded enough to accept the differences. If we do not make allowances for those differences or if we try and force changes in some of those areas eventually the relationship will fail.

I am druid; i was speaking to an apparently great guy, a biker naturally, when we agreed to meet. Cool i thought, then he asked me to bring riding gear but wear a dress. Why i asked. He told me he would be taking me to church and his church did not allow women in pants.

Trying to compromise i offered to meet him later in the day. He insisted i needed to go to church with him. I informed him i never enter a Christian church and why. He informed me i would have to renounce my faith and be baptized. OK, big red flags! I stated at this point i realized we were not suited to each other and should break off contact. Then spent the next three months deleting" you are going to hell" emails.

Most cases are not as severe but there are things most of us hold so dear no matter how much we loved, no matter the depth of our submission, in the long run we either would not give up or would attempt to give up until the resentment of being forced to choose or the desire for what we gave up brought a halt to the relationship. 



_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:40:36 AM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline 		Going on what seems from reading the current posts as a slightly different approach, here's what I think on this subject.

For people that are together strictly for play and aren't together 24/7, sure, I think that in general if you look at JUST the play portion of things, it tends to lend to better times for both parties if they were compatible on many -play- levels.  Having the same kinks, likes/dislikes, fetishes etc, etc would make for a good time. 

For people that are in a more relationship-based thing with D/s-BDSM a big part or even a smaller part of who they are as a couple that is living together 24/7 (not saying that the relationship is 24/7 D/s here, people), I think that having the same likes and dislikes is a wonderful thing for compatibility.  But I've noticed from those that I've talked to or observed, for some reason those that have a truly loving relationship together aside from play and scenes are more willing tobe flexible with each other's likes and dislikes and compromise a lot more.  This is not fact, I'm not saying that it is, it is merely -my observation-.

But, do I think that people need to be molded and essentially changed in their own beliefs and day-to-day ways in order to be with someone?

Abso-fucking-lutely not.  If someone is willing to change their entire being for someone, hell, have at it.  Kudos to you.  To each their own, etc etc.

To me, it's all about compromise and communication all around.  Be straight forward, be open, be adamant about what you believe (hard limits of ANY kind).  Over time, things may change, your attitude might change as most people do, adapt as you see fit and are comfortable with.  But I don't see why someone should compromise what makes them who they are for another person.


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:44:10 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		I think it always makes things a bit easier when two people have the most in common possible. 

I am vegetarian, going back vegan. I don't require that my Dom be also, just that my beliefs are respected.  With that, there are certain things I won't cook(veal, lamb etc.).  If he wants that, he will cook it himself.  This is something I go into my relationships with and no one has ever had an issue with it. 

As far as my religious beliefs go.  I am Christian, but I am not affiliated with a specific denomination.  I have had Buddhist, Catholic, etc.. as far as Doms go.  I don't ask them to change, once again, I just ask to keep my faith as I have it. 

I think the main issue I run into with either of the above, is that I still want kids.  I have to take in to account that my/our kids cannot for sure be raised the way that I would like.  This has been the hardest thing for me to deal with and one of the main reasons I try to find someone that shares my beliefs as close possible. 

I don't usually agree with my Dom politically, I think that is because I am very middle of the road and take each issue on it's own merit. 

It's hard enough to have a relationship, then you add in the D/s part of it and the stresses that brings.  Where we must not match, I think that both people having the ability to compromise is very important.  This is where time and getting to know someone really comes in.  I put this all out there pretty easily and it gets discussed. 

Someone telling what panties to wear is not a big deal, but them telling me who to vote for, who to worship, what to eat (outside of vegetarian)..are all very hard limits.  I will not give up my personality for anyone.  All of the above and more fit into making me who I am, those things won't change, ever.

~Andrea

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:45:35 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

but there must be enough common ground to be respectful when the disagreement comes. Unless someone shares your core beliefs it probably isn't going to happen


Julia,
Why? I don't understand, even when I see it practiced on CM threads, why disagreement and disrespect are so closely aligned? Disrespect, or resorting to name calling or personal attack of the other person indicates a lack of confidence on the issues. As heated as any debate may get, the 'heat' indicates integrity and passion on the issue. Why should it be assigned as disrespecting the person on the other side of the issue?

Intolerance is a symptom of bigger problems.


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/17/2006 8:13:06 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:52:08 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Something that was said on the vegetarian thread got me thinking about what we expect from our partners in regards to their beliefs. Rather than hijack that thread with it I thought it would be more appropriate to start a new post.

It was said on the other thread that vegetarianism could not be a belief that was on the same level as religious or political beliefs. While I tend to agree that religious beliefs would generally be far greater for most people....I am not so sure about politics.

Any belief can be elevated to any level the individual wishes, its a personal thing.  Religion tends to be a very strong belief among most.  But there are individuals who, while believing in some religion, are very casual about it.  Same with politics, animal rights, vegans, etc.  I know one lass who cried for three days when Kerry lost to Bush, to her it was extremely important and very upsetting, that was her belief and level of belief.  Personally, being largely apolitical (fancy way of saying I don't really give a damn), I shrugged and went merrily on with my life.  Different level or importance of belief.

quote:

My question is...do you feel that your partner needs to have the same code or if theirs differs do you feel that they have to realign theirs to sync with yours? Especially in the case of Dominants...do you feel that if your submissive/slave does not realign themselves to match yourself....do you see that as insubordinate or unsubmissive behavior?

I think it depends on in part on how people choose to handle the differences.  For example, I remember the parents of one of my friends growing up.  His dad was a staunch republican, is mom was a liberal a democrat as they come.  That was some 20 years ago and they're still happily married today, go figure.  I once dated a lass who was Catholic and very much a practicing one, I'm an athiest, it caused problems we had to work around.  It never stopped bothering her that I didn't believe and she often worried what would happen to me when I died.  One lass here on CM refused to talk to me because I live in a "red state."  I wasn't even sure what she was talking about until she explained it was about which way the electoral college voted last presidential election.  To me that is still one of the dumbest excuses not to speak to a potential dom I've heard yet.

My point being that things can cause problems, but only if we let them.  Strong beliefs can create big obstacles, but they can always be overcome by bigger people.  We just have to want to really try.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Beliefs - 8/17/2006 7:59:15 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:


One lass here on CM refused to talk to me because I live in a "red state."  I wasn't even sure what she was talking about until she explained it was about which way the electoral college voted last presidential election.  To me that is still one of the dumbest excuses not to speak to a potential dom I've heard yet.



It isn't stupid if she was the one that was expected to spend time there and/or live there if there was a spark. Some people do not want to live in conservative areas, I am one of them.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Padriag)
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