Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

The Bible and Common Sense


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> The Bible and Common Sense Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 4:17:51 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline
I thought I'd start a new thread to discuss the Bible from a slightly different perspective.  Most debates and controversy center around the never ending creationism vs. evolution issue (now we also have intelligent design to contend with).  But what about the Bible itself?
 
I'm not versed in its full content but did take a few religion courses at The Catholic University of America where I got my anthropology degree.  For those who don't know, CUA is owned in majority by the Vatican.  It is THE Catholic college to go to in the United States and is a private university.  One of my courses was the history of Catholicism which included a look at when the Bible first appeared.
 
So, what about the Bible?  Well, I know for example that it was not written all at once or by a single author.  I also know that it is essentially a compilation of religious stories that were pieced together from its inception.  There were many times in history where other writtings were debated as to whether they should be included or not.  Portions of the story of Jesus was written by three different people over a period of 90 years after his death.
 
The Bible raises some interesting questions from a common sense point of view.
 
Did Adam remember everything that happened to him and pass it on to his two sons, one of which killed his brother, so now it would be up to him to pass on not only his father's story but his own (including the part about killing his brother).  What about the next generation and so on?  Obviously these people didn't write the Bible, so we must assume that for a long period of time, the stories were simply oral accounts passed on verbally until writing came along.
 
Of course, this leads to the question of when writing was invented.  Archeologists have dated writing as appearing roughly 5700 years ago.  But strict religious folks don't recognized scientific dating methods so they can't use this to support the claim (should they make one) that writing appeared shortly after the creation (which they claim occurred roughly 6000 years ago).
 
Putting aside the mountain of evidence as to how old the earth actually is and all the life that has long since gone extinct, how do you look at all that information and reconcile it with the biblical stories?  If you make the claim that a "day" during the creation could have been eons of time, then what are you doing?  You're interpreting the Bible yourself.  But the Bible, according to the creationists is supposed to be taken at face value.  No putting a spin on things should be allowed.
 
My point in saying all this is that the Bible's content and the religions based on it are all doing the same thing...taking ideas and putting together a story to explain things and expecting everyone to simply accept them.  You read the Bible, it tells you the story...end of story.  Nothing more needs to be asked if you're a good Christian (or Jew).
 
Now, from my everyday experiences with the human race, I see things going on around me all the time that have nothing to do with this point in history.  The same things I observe today could and did occur from the beginning of the existence of language.  Namely, people are all describing themselves and the world they live in.  I'm sure everyone has either been involved or witnessed the occasional opposing views where each person was present at the same event but have different accounts of it.
 
We also tend to morph or embelish a story as it's passed from one person to the next.  Why should that be any different thousands of years ago?  Aside from technology, people really haven't changed that much psychologically.
 
We all (most of us anyway) want meaning in our lives and something to look forward to...even at our death.  It's clear to me that some of what's contained in the Bible is intended to give this sort of meaning and purpose.  All life exhibits the desire to survive and escape death but human beings seem to be the only ones that carry the knowledge of their mortality around with them at some point as they grow to maturity.  It only makes sense that this burden would greatly influence how we've come to deal with it.
 
So here's where things get dicey for religious folks.  If the Bible is not the "Word" then the rug is being pulled out from under them regarding the promise of an afterlife and what it's all for.  To them, religion is their safety net, their warm blanket or teddy bear they can believe in to keep them from the horror of dying and not knowing what happens afterwards.
 
Religion has become so embedded in society that nobody until recently has been able to posit an alternative explanation.  Science will not offer comfort to be sure.  As one religious leader put it, "Religion deals with the why and science deals with the how."  This is a completely predictable statement and underlines everything I just said.  People want a "why" in their life.  Why are we here?  Why did everything get to be the way it is?  Why did my daughter die in a car accident while I only got a broken arm?  Why did a flood come and wipe out all our crops and now we're all starving to death?  Doesn't somebody care or have a role in why this happened?
 
But again, if the Bible is simply a collection of interpretations, selectively put together over thousands of years by many people from many cultures, then clearly it is not the "Word."  It's what people want to believe and take comfort in.  This is a really big pill for many people to swallow.
 
Some simply refuse, some could care less and are happy with the story they embrace just as it is, others like myself pick up on the details and ask "Why do people do this to themselves?"  It's just like the "Plato's Cave" analogy.
 
Anyway, I hope some who have participated in the other discussions on the subject will be interested in offering their own thoughts.
 
anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 4:34:58 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
If my memory serves me right and I'm going back a long time to lessons at school here. The god written about in the bible was the god of the LAND of Israel and not a universal god and the chosen people were the chosen people for the land of Israel. Somewhere along the line this god of the country of Israel mutated into a universal god. At the time of the stories themselves, the Jewish people had their god and they accepted that other people had their god. Maybe someone can help me out here but I remember a story of a Jewish diplomat going to Babylon and having to take a cart of earth taken from Israel so he could spread it out and be on the soil of Israel so he could pray to his god. ie. the god didn't have power beyond the boundaries of Israel.

Hell, I need to reread all this as it is too vague in my mind but maybe someone can enlarge on this.

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 4:37:09 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
I have quite a bit to say, but I have to make a beer run soon so I just want to address this one point. God does not micromanage the world. Your tragedy was the luck of the draw so to speak. If there is a God in the conventional sense, the God of Abraham, YHWH, whatever seems not to want to play God. If he did, there is no way the world would be the way it is.

T

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 4:38:07 PM   
captiveplatypus


Posts: 382
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
why do y'alls posts have to be so long?  My miniscule attention span has difficulty getting involved in these fun topics!

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 4:42:24 PM   
xhoneyx


Posts: 304
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
I'm wondering when common sense ever became a requirement in spirituality...
certainly no who choose to have faith in the Bible does so because of common sense

also..i'd like to point out that common sense is always changing..with research, development, etc. common sense has changed so much even in the past decade..

in another hundred years..who knows? it might be common sense again to believe what the Bible says..


_____________________________

honey <3

(in reply to captiveplatypus)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 4:45:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
It is the fairytale that won out and became popular (by one means or another). These stories exist in the same and in analogous forms in other religions.

They had better marketing than some others........LOL.  Send priests,  guns and money, slaughter for  religious principle rather than worldly gain........

Religion has aught in common with reality.

End of joke.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 5:17:03 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
There is no doubt that conquest spreads religion better than conversion.

There is no reason not to believe in Enid Blyton as the sacred rather than the bible, people find their own wisdom and answers because stories by their nature create a dialog with the reader. God implores Moses to commit genocide in the bible so given that the bible is the sacred word, it appears god approves of genocide. You take what you want from it like any other stories.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 10:10:39 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
I still want to know how Noah got all of those animals on that ark for a year without all of them eating each other or mating all over the place.  Talk about miracles...

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 10:25:42 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
According to one of the 4 year olds in my church, Noah got all the animals on the ark with a shoe horn and a lot of praying that no one fell overboard when he got them all stufed in.

Just thought Id share

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 10:31:51 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
I thought they lifted most of those stories from the Jews.
The "Old Testament" is the story of the Jews if I'm not misstaken.

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 10:35:57 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

I still want to know how Noah got all of those animals on that ark for a year without all of them eating each other or mating all over the place.  Talk about miracles...


It may seem silly to some but that's a good question and the type of question I'm hoping we will see more of here.  Questions like that one are the sorts of questions I had for my Sunday school teacher as a child.  But she and others would never answer and frequently told me it was not polite to ask such things.  This only fueled my curiosity because, even as child I knew there was nothing wrong with asking about something that was unclear.
 
Later, as an adult it occurred to me that truth has nothing to be afraid of (because it can't be anything else if it is).  So, if the Bible is the "truth" then why was everyone getting so uptight about a challenging question?
 
This is what I mean by "common sense."
 
It's not enough to say something is true because a book says it is.  There is always more to learn.  For me, religion (Christianity) became a dead end on the factual frontier.

 
anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/18/2006 11:43:34 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

I still want to know how Noah got all of those animals on that ark for a year without all of them eating each other or mating all over the place.  Talk about miracles...


It may seem silly to some but that's a good question and the type of question I'm hoping we will see more of here.  Questions like that one are the sorts of questions I had for my Sunday school teacher as a child.  But she and others would never answer and frequently told me it was not polite to ask such things.  This only fueled my curiosity because, even as child I knew there was nothing wrong with asking about something that was unclear.
 
Later, as an adult it occurred to me that truth has nothing to be afraid of (because it can't be anything else if it is).  So, if the Bible is the "truth" then why was everyone getting so uptight about a challenging question?
 
This is what I mean by "common sense."
 
It's not enough to say something is true because a book says it is.  There is always more to learn.  For me, religion (Christianity) became a dead end on the factual frontier.

 
anthrosub

I'm not religious whatsoever, but the bible itself has intrigued me a bit....  Well, maybe it wasn't the bible that intrigued me, but the fact that so many people... the majority of people I come into contact with, take so literally and accept the bible- a book,  because they were brought up with people telling them it was true, regardless of how extremely unlikely it seems, and without a shred of evidence to support it.

I have nothing against those who believe in religion, I do not agree with the philosophy of organized religion as a whole... but all should believe in whatever god, goddess, etc, that they want to.

Before I could even consider becoming a Christian, I would have to have answers....

If God created our world... who created God?  

To those who oppose evolution,  why is evolution just a theory that lacks solid proof (cough), but creationism and God are proven?

I wonder what would happen in many thousands of years if the human race had to start from scratch... and no bibles were found, but someone got a hold of a book by L. Ron Hubbard.....

< Message edited by MistressLorelei -- 8/18/2006 11:48:13 PM >

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 12:34:05 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
Whether or not a God exists , in my opinion is impossible to KNOW.

I note that most Religions declare God's love for humanity.
I look at the horrendous events that humans have suffered and CREATED themselves and say...

This points to the fact that God is supremely indifferent to the human story.

Whether the Bible may taken as literal truth, I would have thought not. Have no problem with others who do accept that literal truth.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/19/2006 12:36:27 AM >

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 12:53:05 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Whether the Bible may taken as literal truth, I would have thought not. Have no problem with others who do accept that literal truth.


Unless of course they attempt physical aggression to those who do not share that faith and the aggresion is driven solely by that lack of common purpose.

Some of the things the US has done in opposition to Communism seem to me to fall into that category.   Am I a gadfly or what Anthrosub?

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 12:56:44 AM   
reversecuckold


Posts: 17
Joined: 2/12/2006
Status: offline
Isnt the bible and common sense some form of oxymoron? I mean common sense to me has a bit to do with logical thinking which is hard to equate to when discussing fiction. Unless they found Noah's Ark recently,,,,,,

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:46:25 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
Mistress,

Easier than it seems at first glance. Two weeks before the said event Noah sent an invitation to the animal community inviting them to apply for auditions at his studio (in a pop idol type scenario) - only homosexual vegetarians were invited to attend.

Regards

(in reply to reversecuckold)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 5:54:36 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Cubits were bigger in them days..........

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 6:39:10 AM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Mistress,

Easier than it seems at first glance. Two weeks before the said event Noah sent an invitation to the animal community inviting them to apply for auditions at his studio (in a pop idol type scenario) - only homosexual vegetarians were invited to attend.

Regards


lol..... Oh please.... like you have any facts that would back that up.  You must first write it down or tell a  friend, and they can put it in the next testament of the bible.  Then it shall be fact.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 7:18:12 AM   
pounddog


Posts: 65
Joined: 6/2/2006
Status: offline
Allegory of the cave,
I read this in a Psche class at a Community College many Years ago
It was remarkable,  You mentioned it
i would like to post it in addendum..


Behold! human beings living in an underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.
I see.
And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.
You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.
Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?
True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?
And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?
Yes, he said.
And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?
Very true.
And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?
No question, he replied.
To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.
That is certain.
And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision,--what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them,--will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?
Far truer.
And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take refuge in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?
True, he said.
And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he is forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.
Not all in a moment, he said.
He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?
Certainly.
Last of all he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.
Certainly.
He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?
Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.
And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?
Certainly, he would.
And if they were in the habit of conferring honors among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honors and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer,
Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner? (1)
Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.
Imagine once more, I said, such a one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness?
To be sure, he said.
And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the den, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable), would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; (2)and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death. (3)
No question, he said.
This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed--whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, Here Plato describes his notion of God in a way that was influence profoundly Christian theologians. and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he would act rationally either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.
I agree, he said, as far as I am able to understand you.
Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural, if our allegory may be trusted.
Yes, very natural.
And is there anything surprising in one who passes from divine contemplations to the evil state of man, misbehaving himself in a ridiculous manner; if, while his eyes are blinking and before he has become accustomed to the surrounding darkness, he is compelled to fight in courts of law, or in other places, about the images or the shadows of images of justice, and is endeavoring to meet the conception of those who have never yet seen absolute justice?
Anything but surprising, he replied.
Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter life, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other; or, if he have a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the den.
That, he said, is a very just distinction.
But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes.
They undoubtedly say this, he replied.
Whereas our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight of being and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good.
Translated by Benjamin Jowett

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 8:42:50 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
www.noah'sanimals-vegetarian,homosexualandtwobytwo.co.uk

It's all in this article. How they queued up for auditions in a disused supermarket just outside Coventry. Note the picture of the giraffe with tinsel around his neck in a pair of leather trousers with the arse cut out (eyeing up the gazelle with just a pair of y-fronts on and a hand bag over his shoulder).

Homosexuality - fine, vegetarianism - not so fine and in extreme cases can lead to genocide - just look at Hitler.

Regards 




(in reply to pounddog)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> The Bible and Common Sense Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078