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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 9:28:49 AM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

I'm not religious whatsoever, but the bible itself has intrigued me a bit....  Well, maybe it wasn't the bible that intrigued me, but the fact that so many people... the majority of people I come into contact with, take so literally and accept the bible- a book,  because they were brought up with people telling them it was true, regardless of how extremely unlikely it seems, and without a shred of evidence to support it.

I have nothing against those who believe in religion, I do not agree with the philosophy of organized religion as a whole... but all should believe in whatever god, goddess, etc, that they want to.


Yes, why so many people accept the creation story without question has always fascinated me as well.  It was one of the unanswered questions that fueled my curiosity to find out why.  At this point it appears to be because most people have no broad educational background of any depth and generally speaking, do not like to think very much.
 
In addition, only in recent history have people become able to travel great distances in significant numbers and discover the world's true size, variations of life, and other cultures.  By recent, I mean the past 500 years or so.  Civilization has only existed for roughly 20,000 years and most of that time, the majority of the population rarely ventured more than 20 miles from where they were born.
 
But once large numbers of people were able to travel (and return), the general view of what the world was began to change significantly.  This sort of education was informal and the fact that many people were able to see the same things gave credibility to what was being reported to those who could not make the trip.  As a result, the view of the world began to change and conflict with the established stories which back then would have been religious explanations.
 
I think we are still seeing this process today.  Organized western religion (particularly Christianity) has historically been opposed to new information because it usurps the political power of the church.  Christianity has been dragged, kicking and screaming into the modern age but not before putting the early explorers and thinkers through a great deal of suffering.
 
Most people today are aware of evolution theory but don't really know what it is for a variety of reasons.  Some have been biased against it by their parents, some are afraid of commiting blasphemy, while others simply may not be interested.  It's entirely possible for someone to have a college degree and still be ignorant about large portions of information about the world.
 
Just the other day I was talking to a co-worker and she said she thought it was crazy to think people could have evolved from fish.  I asked her what she meant and she said, "You know...that first there were little cellular animals, then fish, then amphibians, then reptiles, then mammals and birds, then monkeys, apes, and finally humans."  I sat her down and explained that's not how evolution works and she thanked me.  Then she said she still saw no reason for learning about it because what difference would it make in her life.
 
I too, have a problem with organized religion as it applies to the "truth."  The truth is universal to be sure but each of us will have our own personal experience of it.  Organized religion gives the illusion it can be taught to others but that's impossible.  Each of us, no matter who we are cannot help but interpret our experience of being alive.  The moment we try to describe it to someone else, we are offering a description of our version of experience...what it means to be alive.
 
If you want to have a direct experience of God, you will not get it from organized religion because everything you see and hear will be a symbol, a "re-presentation" of the object or experience being sought.  In effect, religion wedges itself between you and the truth you seek.  Organized religion then becomes a proxy of the truth by default.  But for the general world population, this is something they are understandably quite unaware of.
 
anthrosub

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 9:45:50 AM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Whether the Bible may taken as literal truth, I would have thought not. Have no problem with others who do accept that literal truth.


Unless of course they attempt physical aggression to those who do not share that faith and the aggresion is driven solely by that lack of common purpose.

Some of the things the US has done in opposition to Communism seem to me to fall into that category.   Am I a gadfly or what Anthrosub?


Every country has its own agenda and the United States is no exception.  Communism, like democracy is a social experiment (that quickly failed in historical terms) trying to organize humanity to a common purpose.  There have been many variations throughout history to this end but I seriously doubt any of them was immune to corruption including those being practiced today.
 
Because of human nature, I think it's impossible to have a world without some form of government or organizing principle.  Even anarchy would eventually self-organize into some defacto form of rule but would be brutal on a much broader scale.  Many will say the United States is a hypocrisy but I think what they are seeing is the imperfection inherent in any political system.
 
Organized religion is no exception to the above.  It's a social construct and therefore just as susceptable to corruption as all the others.  People, unlike other forms of life are uniquely greedy and selfish in spite of their best intentions.  The only positive thing I could say is any system will fail eventually and give rise to something a little bit better.  I think this is what democracy is built upon in concept.  In other words, it stands the better chance of reinventing itself and purging the corruption from time to time (but it's not perfect).
 
anthrosub

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 1:04:42 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		anthrosub,

I could very well be getting massively out of my depth here because unlike yourself I did not study anthropology at University but I'll have my say anyway :-)

Your last post seems to be based on the premise that the human species is inherently imbued with self-interest. Now, my understanding is that this is not a factual statement - it is a matter of opinion. Out of interest, why you do think this is the case - what makes you think our greed is not a result of conditioning.

Regards

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:09:24 PM   
MmakeMme


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Status: offline 		Did Adam remember everything that happened to him and pass it on to his two sons, one of which killed his brother, so now it would be up to him to pass on not only his father's story but his own (including the part about killing his brother).  What about the next generation and so on?  Obviously these people didn't write the Bible, so we must assume that for a long period of time, the stories were simply oral accounts passed on verbally until writing came along.

 
Only have time for a quick bit before a work call. Most commonfolk could not read. Theirs was a very very strong oral tradition, passing stories from generation to generation. There were several great philosophers of the time would could not read or write, i.e. Socrates.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:27:39 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		The bible and common sense. This is a bit like wearing a ball gown and sneakers. They just dont belong together.
The bible is nothing more than a lovely set of stories which someone made up. In hundreds of years who knows we may have a huge explosion on earth and all that survives is a copy of the story of o and a few humans suffering from amnesia. Born is a new bible - the story of o.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:32:26 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

anthrosub,

I could very well be getting massively out of my depth here because unlike yourself I did not study anthropology at University but I'll have my say anyway :-)

Your last post seems to be based on the premise that the human species is inherently imbued with self-interest. Now, my understanding is that this is not a factual statement - it is a matter of opinion. Out of interest, why you do think this is the case - what makes you think our greed is not a result of conditioning.

Regards


Good question.  Perhaps I should clarify by putting my statement in context.
 
From a social perspective:
 
Historically, every form of government has eventually led to some form of corruption.  This corruption was due to the minority population as the "leaders", giving themselves more of the bounty of everyone's efforts while at the same time taking steps to insure they (or their immediate family and/or friends) remained in power so they could continue to maintain a high standard of living compared to everyone else.  Even when the leadership is taken from the general population at random, they eventually follow the same pattern.  This is a very general statement but I think it holds true in retrospect.
 
From the environmental perspective:
 
Human beings as a species is the only one that exploits the environment and ecosystem for purposes other than survival, often to its own peril (as in destroying the infrastructure of the balance of life).  This is essentially a kind of "hording" behavior.  People want more and more all the time (to alleviate the fear of uncertainty).  Maybe not always in a very immediate way but eventually they end up with more than is necessary with little regard for what they are doing in the long term.
 
I understand that all life expands to fill all the available niches in the grand scheme of things but humans have the unique ability to circumvent the natural checks and balances that the rest of life is governed by with technology.  But there's one thing they cannot do.  They cannot escape this planet (at least not yet).  If humanity doesn't throttle back on its abuse of the environment, it seriously risks causing its own extinction or at the very least a major die off of the population.
 
This last paragraph is based on environmental science, a fairly new field that often includes the physical sciences and the social sciences.
 
A question to think about on the possibility of conditioning...who was it that conditioned people to be greedy if that's the reason they are?

anthrosub

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:34:34 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		The bible and common sense. This is a bit like wearing a ball gown and sneakers.
 
Sneakers?! Bahhhhh, surrending to the Great Satan! Shame on you young lady.

Regards

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:41:24 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		I surrendered to satan a long time ago lol.
Please though come on bible and common sense are not three words which go together.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:41:33 PM   
justheather


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Status: offline 		From a slightly different perspective (hopefully not so different that this looks like an attempt at hijacking) there are a number of passages in the New Testament offering pretty sound advice with regard to interpersonal relationships.

The sermons of Jesus, Paul's advice to the Corinthians regarding love or charity, and to the Ephesians regarding unity, are just some examples.

Whether or not a person ascribes to the religious view shared by the writers, the advice may be applied to any interpersonal relationship and still prove valuable.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:45:29 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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Status: offline 		I am not an atheist, but I do believe that the Bible, like the words of priests, is just the word of Man, not of God.

Not too long ago on NPR's "Fresh Air", they interviewed theologian Bart Ehrman.  He has written a recent book "Misquoting Jesus", which says as much.  In fact, Erhman, through his research into the history of the Bible, has actually changed from being devoutly faithful (born again at age 15, and went up the line through theology school), to an agnostic.
To listen to his interview on "Fresh Air" regarding his new book:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5052156

His basic education:
- Ph.D. Princeton Theological Seminary (magna cum laude), 1985

- M.Div. Princeton Theological Seminary, 1981
- B.A. Wheaton College, Illinois (magna cum laude), 1978

He is currently the chairman of the Department of Religious Studies at UNC Chapel Hill, and has authored 19 books, and served as the President of the Southeast Region of the Society of Biblical literature. For more on his qualifications, see:
http://www.unc.edu/depts/rel_stud/faculty/Ehrman1.html


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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:47:51 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		anthro,

Historically
 
Agreed, yes, Governments to date have struggled with corruption of some sorts. However, this doesn't really answer the question. Could this corruption be a consequence of early examples of conditioning? Do we understand what early human communities were like i.e. were the early communities peaceful and concilliatory but somewhere along the line we lost sight of our basic needs? Also, are we only so far down the evolutionary path and as we progress we will understand that for our well-being we really do not need greed and self-interest - is it an education issue?

Environmentally
 
Makes sense to me. Again, the question I would ask is is such exploitation natural to us? In terms of our survival, humans have always had the ability to overcome potential problems, for example it was a widely held belief in England in the 1600s that there wasn't enough food on the earth to sustain the forecast population growth and as result large sections of society would starve - I suppose ultimately we have a self-preservation instinct that will overcome obstacles.

In terms of your question, I couldn't even begin to answer it but in return I would ask the question how much do we know about early human settlements? Is it possible these settlements were entirely peaceful and content but somewhere along the line corruptive forces began to take control?

More questions than answers I'm afraid.

Regards


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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:55:11 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		missturbation,

Well, I think for a secular nation like Britain it is hard to understand how anyone could take the bible as the word of God.

However, although riddled with contradiction there is some common sense in there that our Governments would do well to bear in mind - the principles of love thy neighbour etc

Regards

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 3:59:25 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		You could say that about most books written. Principles and morals to live by. The bible just comes across as pretentious and self righteous.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 4:08:25 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		It's a book of dogma isn't it "don't do this, don't do that, or that, or that and definitely not that".

But, there are some snippets in there that our Governments would do well to remember - I'm never convinced by the argument that religion is the cause of wars, maybe a tool for propaganda but not the root cause of war.

Regards

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 4:09:13 PM   
EnglishDomNW


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Status: offline 		If there's such a thing as God, why does he let terrible things happen, like famine, war and Jennifer Lopez?

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 4:15:55 PM   
MissTlTTYMilk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoneyx

I'm wondering when common sense ever became a requirement in spirituality...
certainly no who choose to have faith in the Bible does so because of common sense

also..i'd like to point out that common sense is always changing..with research, development, etc. common sense has changed so much even in the past decade..

in another hundred years..who knows? it might be common sense again to believe what the Bible says..

   Very interesting point......how do you define "common sense"?  Practical minded?

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I thought they lifted most of those stories from the Jews.
The "Old Testament" is the story of the Jews if I'm not misstaken.

   Actually i thought Islam, Judaism, and all Christian faiths had the Prophet Abraham as the proverbial common denominator.  Not sure, but the Bible has so many variations.....if you do an internet search using keyword: Bible Timeline.....You will see a fascinating history.....most curious to me is the King James Bible........quite a metamorphosis.

< Message edited by MissTlTTYMilk -- 8/19/2006 4:20:09 PM >

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 4:18:43 PM   
MissTlTTYMilk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

If there's such a thing as God, why does he let terrible things happen, like famine, war and Jennifer Lopez?


too funny  

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 4:23:52 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		U could pull snippets from any book and say the same thing.

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 4:29:36 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Well yes I could. Agreed. But, does it mean these snippets are not common sense? I know you Yorkshire types are strong in the arm etc but there's no argument to be had here!

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/19/2006 4:32:38 PM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		lol - no i agree snippets make sense in an outdated kind of way but some of the stuff is just too over simplified.
As for us yorkie types well we just say it how we see it.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 40
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