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RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 10:49:11 AM

WhipTheHip

Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline

Hi there,

> For someone who is gay and saw the ugliness of discrimination by some
> who are heterosexual or fundmental and attacking homosexuals, how could
> he be so angry against someone whose own lifestyle choice was more
> progressive.

For some reason you would think persecuted minorities would have
sympathy for other persecuted minorities but that is not the case.
The Roman persecuted and tortured the Chirstians, then when the
Christians gained power they persecuted and tortured everyone
else. Blacks were persecuted, but black groups are just as
intolerant and racist as white groups. Look at Louis Farakahn.
Those of us into bdsm are looked down upon my all society,
yet what do those in the bdsm community do as soon as
they gain any acceptance? They look down on other
members in the bdsm community. In every group, there
are political fights, and no body can seem to get alone
with anyone else.

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 21

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 10:56:41 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

Darlin, I hardly "took offense" to anything you said.....I'm just making a personal observation in my own blunt style. You threw your fetish out there as "your thing" and I'm merely passing you the hints that there could be alot of reasons why you're not "being accepted." That was all.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 22

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 10:58:32 AM

Kree

Posts: 118
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline

Whip

Perhaps your problem is more basic. You attempt to set yourself apart from every mainstream out there, then wonder why the mainstream doesn’t embrace you. I disagree with many of the comments you made in this post.

First, I never trust anything I read that includes the triggers “real” or “true”. What is real or true to some people is not the same for others, but who cares. Real and true are what two (ok ok for poly add some) people define real and true to be.

Second, anyone that lives a 24/7/365 scene must be awfully damn tired, or exceedingly wealthy, or kidding themselves. Yes, in D/s, I think there can be a 24/7 relationship where both partners know who and what they are in the relationship, but there is also a real life that we all must live. I have never seen anyone renewing a driver’s license of buying a movie ticket with a crawling partner on a leash. Perhaps you need to define YOUR vision of reality and realize that what you feel others are doing/seeking isn’t what you imagine it to be.

Third, your obsession with being called a troll is YOUR obsession, but you have fostered that situation with comments and your profile. Anyone with diabetes needs to avoid reading that profile because their sugar will explode. You seem to feel that YOU and YOU alone have the market on kindness, YOU and YOU alone have the ability to help people get past their life issues, YOU and YOU alone understand them. Wrong Whip, you do not have the franchise on any of those things, much less all of those things.

Fourth (and final), your comments in the last paragraph of this post are total bullshit. Who do you think reads these things? Idiots that sit there drooling and nodding in agreement? There aren’t too many males and too few females. There are too many males that THINK they are dominants because they see easy sex on the horizon. There is work involved in being a dominant and whining that there are too many shows that you haven’t considered the work involved. Most dominants do not fear competition of any type because we don’t see competition. Being dominant is a matter of attitude and presence. The attitude of a dominant doesn’t accept that others are competitors and being a presence in various settings sets them apart from the pretenders and those who haven’t learned what being a dominant is all about.
In this paragraph you show your total ignorance of dominance. It isn’t about instilling fear in anyone... it is about earning the respect of a partner through the attitude, being a presence, and in demonstrating to them WHY they feel a desire to submit. Keep thinking that fear is what brings in the submissives and you will be alone forever. You seem to be trying to attract the wounded and the abused… do you think fear of losing you will hold them to you? Forget it.
Yopur comment that dominants try to inhibit/prohibit contact further defines your lack of knowledge about the realities of being a dominant. Do you really feel that limiting contact makes someone dependent? It doesn’t. It makes others realize how insecure the dominant is that would even try that. It also points fingers at those who feel that is the secret to being a dominant and finding a partner. A dominant that must restrict contact and inhibit a submissive is a very weak dominant that has found a partner that is stronger than they are and must be reined in to hold them. How long do you think a submissive of any value would stay in that situation? For a while.. yes… forever, no damn way.

Whip, instead of posting things like this, I suggest that you find the reality of BDSM and D/s and begin learning what a dominant is and what a dominant does. Your post whines to a conclusion that is not very appealing and is totally inaccurate. You might be a wonderful person.. who knows… but you will never find respect from anyone in the lifestyle with the thoughts that OTHER dominants use tricks that you don’t use. Grow up… learn things… then you might be enlightened, IF you possess the attitude and IF you are a presence among others that draws respect.


_____________________________

Author of "Nytewhispers"

Power whispers, it has no reason to yell

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 23

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 11:08:49 AM

JHLuvsfeet

Posts: 17
Status: offline

MisPandora,

Then we are at a good place as outside of this forum, I would love to buy you dinner... (and not have to eat it off of your feet or anything, LOL!). That said, I am happy I didn't upset or offend you. Thank you again for the reply.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 24

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 11:13:37 AM

JHLuvsfeet

Posts: 17
Status: offline

After reading that post by Kree, I might have to put a signature disclaimer of...

"The views expressed by WhipTheHip are not necessarily the views of JHluvsfeet. Any similarity of thoughts,
posts and related content is purely coincidental. I am in no way affiliated with WhipTheHip in any way."

LOL! Just kidding... I really don't know any of you so... time will tell.

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 25

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 11:30:07 AM

zumala

Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline

*chuckles* Kree, if what Whipthehip says drives you that crazy, you should do what I did and block him. I don't do that for many folks, but I didn't see anything much worth reading in the majority of his posts, so I saved myself the frustration of seeing them. As I mentioned in another thread elsewhere today, there are simply some folks not worth the trouble of getting upset over.

zuma

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 26

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 11:30:17 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I do not think of myself as a quintessential lifestyler. I have not belonged to many organizatons, volunteered my time in the community, or done any of these things. I have had a couple of Ds dynamics, but that is about the extent of my experience. It may happen that this will change, possibly in the near future. I am happy being a loner or not being a loner, I do not have to "join" things.

I think a lot of the motivation to form cliques is what helps this lifestyle grow and become a dynamic sort of thing. People would not be motivated to put in time and energy into something they did not closely identify their social life to be tied to, a commonness of purpose attached to their endeavors. Without cliques no one would run a dungeon, or a munch, or a run other groups... no one would take on that responsibility unless they were going to economically profit from it or socially profit from it. Once people invest themselves, they feel ownership of a group and they become cliquish.

You seem to confuse cliques with subcultures too. Vegans, for example, often share the same values and style of dress (not all, but many), but this is not really a clique, they do not all know each other or hang out together... the same can be said of this lifestyle. A clique is a group of acquaintences and/or friends that share cultural attributes and hang out together. Not all members of the same subculture will be welcomed within the same clique

I have belonged to cliques in the past from peace activism, to groups of friends at university and at work, but that has usually been out of necessity to accomplish a purpose. I probably will not belong to a clique unless my Daddy wants to do this within the lifestyle, because that takes time and energy away from other endeavors I would rather invest my time in...just some thoughts.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 27

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 11:46:31 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessieMe
People are people are people are people... Why do you expect them to be any different just because they are kinky?

Damn that was way better than any answer I was going to give.

Welcome to the great world of social dynamics :) Once you get to know them, they can be great fun to use to your advantage.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to JessieMe)

Post #: 28

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 12:01:00 PM

Kree

Posts: 118
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline

zumala,

LOL He doesn't drive me crazy... I simply wouldn't allow that. What my post was adressing was something more basic. I do not necessarily think that any of us "owes" anything back to the lifestyle, but I have always felt that we need to guide, lead, and/or educate others. Part of guiding/leading/educating is offering suggestions for research and offering ideas from our own experiences. Our experiences might not always be what those of others might be, but they ARE experiences that make people think and explore. Another part of guiding/leading/educating is to spot bullshit when it is being sold and call attention to it. I know his comments were absurd, but I have been involved in this life for many years. What bothers me is those who are new that read stupidity and think they have found a clue. I would prefer to point out obvious errors in thinking than to have 10 more people think that there are tricks involved in obtaining and securing a partner. While I have never and never will claim to know everything, I do know when I read something that has zero merit and is, in my opinion, detremental to others. There are things I read that I do not agree with, but they are reasonable and people live them. Then, there are things I read that accuse BDSMers of absurd behavior that I feel needs to be pointed out.

_____________________________

Author of "Nytewhispers"

Power whispers, it has no reason to yell

(in reply to zumala)

Post #: 29

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 12:24:13 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

Humans are just that way, very clannish by nature therefore cliquish. You will find it in every aspect of socializing its pretty much unavoidable from what I've observed.

I myself do my own thing, I don't care if other people like it or not. As long as Myself and mine are happy that is all that matters.

Have a good one,

~Lashra and slutjack

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 30

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 12:43:04 PM

JHLuvsfeet

Posts: 17
Status: offline

Hello JuliaOceania,

You have it more correct when you state, " You seem to confuse cliques with subcultures too." Yes, subculture is more the correct nomenclature. As you have been around groups (peace activism for instance) you might appreciate this experience I had once.

I was helping a friend promote his Vegetarian/Vegan restaurant at an Eartsave organized event in NYC a few years ago. He has been a Vege-Chef for over 20 years and told me going in, "Expect to see some really freaky people here who will even start criticizing my food up and down. People who are raw foodists for example. They get so millitant in their own lifestyle that they get so blinded in promoting and defending it and don't even recognize that there are millions of others who are promoting the many of the same causes."

He was spot on in his "profiling" as sure enough, after we were there a few hours, it wasn't enough for some that we were promoting healthier eating, cruelty-free cooking and other global-economic benefits of his cuisine. No, they went on ranting and raving, "Oh, there are no nutrients in your food, it's all dead... ICK!" and with that, walked around with that air of superiority I mentioned.

The most common elements, that I've observed, in many of the more diverse "subcultures" is not that the behaviors or lifestyle is extreme, but rather, the personality types and the underlying reasons of what might drive someone to be involved in such things. That being, what drives that person, where the desire truly stems from that makes them seek out that "lifestyle" and what it does for them, means to them, etc.

But again, in doing so, why should it create further invisible lines of demarcation between others, in a societal sense, thereby further keeping it "in the closet, exclusive or secretive"? I'm talking about both those who lead such a lifestyle and make it a thing that is kept a secret (their perogative) and treat it as such that if it were revealed, it would destroy so many elements of their stable or vanilla life; as well as I am talking about those who are so staunch with their views (like a militant lesbian who has utter contempt for a man expressing his opinion and her interpretting as being mysogonistic simply because he said it, not she, or an ethinc person hanging on every word of someone who they feel has oppressed them so that that one word can be taken out of context and made into racial argument, or a person with political views who can't listen to a good idea if it is perceived as coming from outside of his/her own political party, etc.). These are just a handful of generalizations I am making, however, I'm sure you've run into or know at least one of the types of listed, one of many thousands of types.

But I guess what I what I was asking on my OP was... why is there this "defending yourself" kind of underlying attitude which exists in this lifestyle (whether you are new to it or a long time pro) which I have witnessed with other topics and focuses in other groups as well? I understand the position that just as I have been able to "profile" certain types of individuals and their behaviors in the paragraph above, so true might it be that Doms do get annoyed by people who are Switch if it experience has proved it time and again that that individual does not understand the dynamics of a Dom/Sub relationship. Maybe I have to become more involved to be able to make those observations, the same way I have of others.

One last thing... although I make these observations (and dare to speak of them) don't think for a minute that I don't know my own faults or think I don't have any. Although I may appreciate the praise of friends (a word I don't use lightly and therefore very selective of the ones I have), I truly contemplate the words of perceived enemies... those who will often make the mistake of revealing your vulnerabilities, thinking that in doing so, they are taking an emotional stab at you. To me, it's similar to a boxer being foolish enough to tell his opponent, "You keep dropping your guard after you throw that right..." LOL!

So, please... criticize if you must... but know that I claim nothing. And for you ladies I must tell you... Even if I should come to know all there is to know in life by the time I'm ready to die... in the end... I would still have only been half right! : )

Pax

< Message edited by JHLuvsfeet -- 8/19/2006 1:21:27 PM >

(in reply to Kree)

Post #: 31

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 12:59:47 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I wasn't criticizing you, I was sharing a different view of the same phenomena. I studied cultural anthropology for 4 years and I want to further this study in graduate school. I was just pointing out that this quirk of humanity is what it is and it exists perhaps because it does some good also. It seems to be a cultural universal that people form cliques... so remarking on their existence and disliking this is like disliking marriage, or parenthood, or the fact that most people believe in some sort of spirituality. It just exists, and I do not claim to know why, and if I hypothesized about it I could guess many reasons, but they would still be guesses.

As far as your other comments, my Daddy had a party for lifestylers at his home when he was with his second submissive. She wanted to be in charge of the guest list so only the "right" people would come. Her elite list included all of 4 friends, three of which were submissives and one other dom. Since my Daddy doesn't play with subs not his own, it was a very boring party... elitism, cliquishness and the like can be very humorous. At least we have the same idea, invite people based upon what is between their ears and not what they look like or how "cool" they are.... make it fun and lively. But then again, I never cared much if I was excluded from things outside of my own family.. I just have more important things to worry on.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 32

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 1:16:44 PM

Daddysredhead

Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline

People in general develop cliques. People are in this lifestyle, therefore, there will be cliques here as well. Human nature isn't checked at the door to the bdsm world. It just follows...

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 33

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 8:20:29 PM

Renate234

Posts: 7
Joined: 9/30/2005
From: sw Missouri
Status: offline

JessieMe
People are people are people are people... Why do you expect them to be any different just because they are kinky?

Didn't they show you the chapter in the manual, stating that when you add BDSM and an identification to your life... you suddenly enter a higher, more nobler plane of existence?

More amazing than the fantasy, is the fact that there are actually some that believe it.

Renate

_____________________________

Renate

"You get what everyone gets... You get a lifetime."

(in reply to JessieMe)

Post #: 34

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 8:39:55 PM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JHLuvsfeet

That said, why does there seem to be so much animosity towards people by certain individuals in here? For example, I've read a few dozen posts by doms who are so adamant about anyone who is switch, however, I know for myself, I can get into either role quite easily as my mind and persona can go there.

I once read that when a person gets angry it is because life is not conforming with thier view of reality. I am often a victim of this myself ;-). Live learn. Fill in for others weaknesses with your strengths.

quote:

Besides that, what is up with the cliquishness of certain groups of individuals and the ego that develops or gets inflated in the way they talk, brag and carry on about this particular aspect of this lifestyle of theirs?

Some people only like certain things. You like a lot of things. Why get down on them for only liking one thing? Keep moving till you find ppl similar to you...leave the others behind. 7 billion strong (lol) there's gotta be someone(s) else out there with similar interests.

quote:

To give you an example, I remember going into a health food store and asking the woman behind the counter, "So if I go vegan or vegetarian, does it mean I have to stop bathing, grow my hair out, wear sandals and patchuoli?" She laughed and said, "Yeah, it seems that way, doesn't it?" She knew what I was talking about. Or those individuals in other groups who might know the "lingo" and industry standards and then walk around with this air of being so "above" anyone who is just entering the same lifestyle, this blase attitude of superiority which reaks of "you have to get over yourself. It's sad that this facade you carry on is put up with only by the rest of the people as phony as yourself... pa-lease."

My pot and kettle are black. What color are yours?

quote:

Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but I doubt it. I can allow my mind to bend in any direction. I just never understood aligning myself with any one thought, focus or lifestyle to the point that it set me apart so greatly from others who might be unlike myself that I would not be able to relate to them or harbor ill feelings as well. It's the reason why so many groups will never champion their own cause because they get myopic in their view and tend to even become angry or on the offensive (and defensive) about it, when people merely question it in trying to understand it for themselves.

ad nauseum.

quote:

Sorry, but I am living life and trying to enjoy it with as many as I can, but I'm not going to lose myself in order to do so.

Great go do it without all those you do like and let the others be ;-)

Cheers

D (owner of j)

_____________________________

Possibly.

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 35

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 8:51:52 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zumala

*chuckles* Kree, if what Whipthehip says drives you that crazy, you should do what I did and block him.

Personally, I feel that blocking somebody deprives me of the opportunity in the future to heap derision on their peurile maunderings.

Not to mention, this person made me do something. Which is just wrong to me on so many levels.

I identify as a granola eating, tree-hugging, kumbiya-singing, peace loving, non-violent, liberal wacko. I teach full-contact self defense, which always strikes me as odd due to my non-violent stance. I read leftist and rightist oriented information. I feel that people I may not agree with on most things may sometimes say something I might learn something from.

So I dont block anybody. ;)

This is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to zumala)

Post #: 36

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 9:15:49 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

My question isn't why the lifestyle is cliquish. My question is why newbies don't wait more than 48 hours before posting their first "Everyone else sucks and I'm so much more open-minded" threads.

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 37

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/19/2006 9:38:40 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

My question isn't why the lifestyle is cliquish. My question is why newbies don't wait more than 48 hours before posting their first "Everyone else sucks and I'm so much more open-minded" threads.

Maybe it is too close to their bedtime, their mother limits their use of the computer, or they have a report due in their 8th grade history class tomorrow?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 38

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/20/2006 4:32:13 AM

EvilGeoff

Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JHLuvsfeet
But I guess what I what I was asking on my OP was... why is there this "defending yourself" kind of underlying attitude which exists in this lifestyle (whether you are new to it or a long time pro) which I have witnessed with other topics and focuses in other groups as well?

Hi JH,

When people feel threatened, it's a common reaction to become defensive. It's "Us vs Them". Mainstream society portrays us in the lifestyle, for the most part, as total degenerates, or serial killers. Tough to live with that image. Personally I rather like it. It means I am, for the most part, left alone! *LOL*

People who hang out with one another will develop acquaintances, friends, associates, people you just don't like for whatever reason, and enemies. Groups of friends may well be seen as "cliques" by those not in that circle of friends. Tis the nature of the beasty. Personally I have a lot of friendly acquaintances, a few good friends, lots of associates, a handful of people who actively dis-like me, and other than my ex-mother-in-law, I can't think of anyone I would class as an "enemy" (meaning someone who would actively initiate hostilities or try to cause harm to me).
*grins and shrugs*

But I sure annoy the fuck-nuts outta some people!

Welcome to the chaos and confusion that is Collarme.

YIK,
- Geoff

(in reply to JHLuvsfeet)

Post #: 39

RE: Why is this lifestyle so cliquish like so many others? - 8/20/2006 12:07:45 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

On topic: I am sort of oblivious to the whole "clique" thing. I was even this way in high school, and it seems to frustrate people who think it's "important" to hang with "the right people". Even some of the women in my ladies' group seem to think it's odd that I am not pining to live in Regency, one of my the city's most exclusive areas. I may be an oddball, but I just couldn't care less.

**Evil Geoff, I like your new pic! It's great!

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2006 12:14:07 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to EvilGeoff)

Post #: 40

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