RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (Full Version)

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Craftsman -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/20/2006 10:01:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Medical dictionary useage, and general English dictionary useage
has zero relevance to how a term is used in the bdsm community.

 
That is an absolute that is not true.  If medical and English dictionary usages of words had no relevance to BDSM, then sexual sadism could stand for dancing with fluffy bunnies.  But it doesn't.  Most people when they hear sadism understand that it involves someone getting pleasure from inflicting pain and that understanding comes from the medical and English references.
 
 


Im number  two that agrees with the medical defnition, which was also published in wikipedia... I am hoping we can find more than 10 that will post an agreement to it..smiles



number 3 here...7-8 more to go.

Count my vote to agree with medical dictionary, wikipedia, and any other regular or encyclopedic dictionary.  It's hard enough to come to a common understanding of a term without having to sift through personal and personalized definitions that have nothing in common with common useage.

Guess I'm Vote #4

edited to correct a completely senseless sentence. 




twicehappy -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 3:39:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamerofwild1s

ok did I miss something or did he tell twicehappy she needed a clue 


You missed all the Domme and twice bashing on the Unicorn Hunt thread, lol. Plus you missed Benji actually growling and barking!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamerofwild1s

Pssssssssttttt . he also fits the label of Teddybear ... just ask spoilt .. for a cookie or two she'll spill the beans on him


Ok Tamer you just graduated to Bad Man yourself! Like i would tell for a cookie!

What kind of cookie......just curious.......




twicehappy -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 4:33:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMinx

and *smiles*  in any social group .. people, like twice, who have shown themslves over time to be fair, intelligent, considerate, thoughtful and non judgemental..  etc ... tend to get a broader leeway when it comes to certain things .... so yes twice may not have been perfect in her statements (no one is) ... but she was given the benifit of the doubt / undestanding  because people already knew enough about her to know she wasnt trying to be nasty or self indulgent..


Aw...blushes...thank you, you are too sweet.

That is why i gave up answering his posts, he was getting what he wanted, attention. And provoking me in the process, anger being as useless to me as jealousy. So i went out and played in my flowers and soaked in the hot tub instead.

Big smiles back at you.......




kyraofMists -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 4:54:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Medical dictionary useage, and general English dictionary useage
has zero relevance to how a term is used in the bdsm community.


That is an absolute that is not true.  If medical and English dictionary usages of words had no relevance to BDSM, then sexual sadism could stand for dancing with fluffy bunnies.  But it doesn't.  Most people when they hear sadism understand that it involves someone getting pleasure from inflicting pain and that understanding comes from the medical and English references.

Im number  two that agrees with the medical defnition, which was also published in wikipedia... I am hoping we can find more than 10 that will post an agreement to it..smiles


Julia,

I think you may have read a little too much into my statement or I was not clear enough.  I do not have an issue with people taking the fundamentals of an accepted definition and refining it to make it their own.  It can lead to more misunderstandings in general conversation, but language is not static and it evolves over time.    

What I do have issue with is a person asking leading questions of a group of people based on their own personal definition that has some distinct differences to the published definition and not defining their own definition until hours later. 

I also take issue with them using their own personal definition and placing the word “real” before it.  That smacks of “One True Way” and if a person doesn’t fit their “real” definition then it can be inferred that they are fake. 

I also do not like when people answer them based on the published definition and they are told that they are “confused”.  (Post to Sunshine back on page 2)

I also have an issue with the absolutes and the statement that the published definitions have “zero relevance” to the term for the BDSM community.

Anyway, this was a fun thread for a Sunday afternoon, but I doubt I will post to it again.

Have a great day, Julia.

Kyra




darkinshadows -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 5:00:16 AM)

I am just going to skip through all the drama - personally I can see certain individuals slinging mud and behaving incredibly stupidly.  Your all doing the exact same thing your moaning and trying to degrade the OP for doing - so really, what is the whole point?
I think I now understand the whole point of the beautiful platypus earleir thread, and LH asking about cliques.
Because this thread is a marvelous example of one.
 
As for the OP... the problem with the question as it stands, Michael, is that there are many generalisations in the thought process you are passing over, as well as a slight misunderstanding on some of the terms that exist.  You have every right to place your own definition on a word, however it does not make it correct - and moreover - it definately doesn't make it correct for everyone else.  Therefore, whatever study or observation you are trying to make, will be null and void as it has no truth to it, only the truth as you see it.
 
Now I am a terrible word nazi... and whilst I will agree that there are some definitions within the BDSM community that lack a certain cohesion with set dictionary and medical terms (slave, dominant, submissive etc)... there are other definitions that are clearly defined within the community (masochist and sadist being two of these terms).
This is where BDSM can become incredibly confusing to both novice and those who consider themselves 'well versed'.  That is why there are so many disagreements that appear on the forum, that is why there are debates that rage continuously like the slave vs. submissive debates... the 'what is a Master ' debates etc,etc...
 
From the beginning of the OP... you have left out vital componants.
Not all submissives are masochistic.  Not all bottoms are masochistic.  And most importantly, a submissive is not a bottom.  Now you can insist that submissive is a catch all term because you have seen others use it as such.  But unfortunately, that is because there are people within BDSM - new and old - who have never strived to learn and move forward.  Many times, people take on a position, only to find that they cannot truely find their match - and why is that?  Because they are sticking to the label that they placed around their neck and giving over nothing but miscommunication.
 
Where do I and people like myself, fit into your question?  I am not a masochist, but I am a sadist.  I am not a submissive, yet I have a submissive personality.  I can Top, but because that is a service and submissive act on my part.  And I am definately not a switch.  I really would enjoy responding to your question, however, I fit none of your criteria.
 
Not all dominants nor tops are sadistic.  I know many who are masochisitc in nature and many more who are neither.
There are tops and bottoms in committed, monogamous relationships.
There are submissive types who wander from partner to partner.
 
My suggestion is that you try not to become so submerged in the labels.  Labels help and allow the chance for open communication - but that is all they are.  Listen to what an individual has to say, and see if it agrees with your perception.  If it doesn't, then find out why it doesn't.  You cannot judge anothers reasons of why they enjoy pain, or why they are dominant purely on your own perception and expect it to be correct.
A judge or jury in a court of law, looks at all the evidence, and ideally, should not be blinded by ones own perception because that does not make a fair trial.  It does not happen very often, but when it does, it shows wisdom and care.
 
Peace and Rapture
 
*edit because I was being too general...[;)]
 
 




MzMinx -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 5:02:18 AM)

*Smiles at twice* .... hmmmm your welcome lovely one ...  what I said is merely the truth




Tikkiee -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 5:11:04 AM)

quote:

Don't a lot of females fantasize being raped?

Nope, not this one.
quote:

  Don't masochists
fantasize having a lot of extreme things being done to them?

Nope, not this Masochst.
quote:

Someone who just gets pleasure
from inflicting pain is a sadist, and that is a 
major symptom of a personality disorder. 


Very Interesting. I will have to show Chris this. I am sure he will get a real kick from such a sweeping generalization. I am curious to know though where you get your information from? Inquiring minds want to know [:)]
quote:

On the
other hand, I suspect that female subs who are not into D/s

who are just into S&M are at times willing to have anyone
top them so long as the person is competent with their
tools and can be trusted not to violate their hard limits. 


What a joke. No one in their right mind would ever play with someone on that level unless they knew them VERY well. Competency with tools does not take the place of knowing someone.
quote:

  Actually, a femsub just into pain and not into Ds is termed a bottom masochist...


Most commonly yes. Masochistic bottom is usually referred to as one who is just there for THE PAIN; with no interest in the D/s at all.
quote:

  If I were ever to be a bottom, I could never play with a safeword,

This sums up your intelligence quite nicely [:)]
quote:

Right!  But "sub" has come to be an all inclusive term, and usually most female
bottom masochists tend to have at least a little sub in them, too. 

Again, you are so far off the mark it not even funny anymore. I am extremely curious as to what you base your impressions, facts, and data on?
quote:

Tikkiee is an example... she does not call herself a sub.

Why thankyou Julia [:D] You are most correct here. There is not a submissive bone in my body. Even when bottoming, there is no submission from me. I am there for one reason and one reason only. MYSELF. I could care less about what the top is getting out of it, as long as I get what I want. [:)]
quote:

But "sub" stands for
"submissive," and females who are not submissive who are just masochistic bottoms are technically speaking

not "subs."  Not every female masochistic bottom is a sub. 

Bit of a contradiction here don't you think? A minute ago, you said this:
quote:

and usually most female
bottom masochists tend to have at least a little sub in them, too.

Which one do you stand by?
quote:

My ideal Top: Someone who can beat the living shit out of me competantly

MMMM can I say YUMMY [:)][:)][:)]





juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 5:14:42 AM)

The medical defnition is not complete enough, but there has to be some sort of standard to which he could contrast his opinion. I am not saying the medical definition is complete, but I did address that it was a standard from which he could deviate to explain his own..

My issue is talking apples when the rest of us are talking oranges. I have never ever in any masochism thread judged another's definition of themselves, as long as they are not inventing definitions for others.. I do agree with this definition as a starting point of discourse, and if you read my words on the subject, you will see this too!





KnightofMists -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 6:20:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I thought you asked a great question, but sadly not many Doms participated and answered it.



Actually At leasts three recognized Dominants and significant posters to this board did contribute to this thread.  And they essentially agreed that in general the efforts of the OP to put everyone in boxes is a pointlless exercise.  Considering that these three's opinion generally has some influence on people's thoughts when they speak individually, I suspect with the three of them so much in agreement can only add to the influence.  It is likely alot Doms feel it unneccessary to echo an agreement when the message was stated effectively by three respect Doms on this board.

The fact that many don't contribute is an answer of itself.




juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 7:41:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

I do not know how I could have been so hard on someone so perfect and kind and domly in everyway, the Unique Best Dom in the entire Universe


Hmm!  I've admitted to having many flaws.  I never claimed to be perfect or anything remotely close.  In any event, there is no such thing as perfection, as what is perfect for one person is not perfect for another.  I said am not really a Dom, would probably make a poor Dom, and most subs would have no interest in me.   I stopped reading your post at this point becaue once again you are attributing to me things I never said. 


Michael,

I wanted to apologize for this post that you quoted, it was uncalled for to bring my opinion of your profile into the discussion. I should not have insulted you, and I will only say I have not been feeling well for several days and perhaps that colored the way I posted to this thread yesterday. Perhaps the antibiotics have kicked in because when I reread this portion I realized it was not something I was particularly proud of.

Even if I have no idea of how you define masochism or sadism or top or bottom still, it is really none of my business, and if you didn't want to share that.. well that was up to you...

Again, I am sorry about the above post that you quoted.





tanbunns -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 9:09:06 AM)

as a submisive    The mistress does what  is ness.  at thetime of the punishment  weather it is a pain or pleasure experience, it is her call.  A lot of the time the mood has alot to do with what will happen.  I myself   enjoy the   whole tied up flogged or whipped ,caned or cropped punishment,  with  whatever else she dreams up, i pretty much deserve what i get anyways.  and the whole idea is for her pleasure and enjoyment not mine.  when  im being beat by her and i see a evil smile on her face as im sweating and  bnegging her to stop with only my eyes,  this is what i thrive for.    and love the denial after serviceing her.




Jasmyn -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 9:21:44 AM)

Thats what I love about being me, being a dominant woman... I can and will do whatever I want with him .. at first not turned on by inflicting pain ... but now I love it ... watching him squirm...pleading...begging ...pleasure or pain.. a chill running through men when what I am inflicting is having it's desired effect ... good or bad ... whatever I want ...it's mine for the taking ...  




Slipstreme -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 10:53:24 AM)

quote:

Don't a lot of females fantasize being raped?


I used to, not anymore. If I fantasize about rape, I'm on Top.

quote:

Don't masochists
fantasize having a lot of extreme things being done to them?


In my case, depends on your definition of "extreme." I usually fantasize about things I want to eventually do. This might be at a severity higher than I am capable with, or not. Lately hook suspension and a bit of spear kavadi. The most extreme is mainly flashes of blood and red, peeled skin and flesh, no solid idea, and usually when I am feeling sadistic although a couple of times while masochistic.

quote:

Someone who just gets pleasure
from inflicting pain is a sadist, and that is a 
major symptom of a personality disorder. 


This again! I could care less if my bottom is enjoying it at times. I'm more interested in pain for pain's sake. It doesn't matter what side of the whip I am on. I want pain, I want to cause pain. The orgasms and subspace are simply icing on the cake for me as a masochist and a sadist. Your pleasure, as a bottom is not my number one priority. If enjoying inflicting agony and being in agony are symptoms of a personality disorder, then it is a personality disorder I AM PROUD to have, and one I would NEVER get treated.

I always want to take it as far as it can go. The only thing that holds me back if I have consent to go there, is physical damage that I can see being done. (Stopped a caning once because I realized said bottom's ass was getting very bruised, and insanely bruised it did get, a bruise I never expected to see on a living human being.) I have made my slave cry, and enjoyed doing it, something I am guilty over, not because of the act, but because it was done in the context of punishing her. That I dont think I should have enjoyed, but when it comes right down to it, I did enjoy seeing her like that.





nefertari -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 11:31:45 AM)

quote:

Someone who just gets pleasure
from inflicting pain is a sadist, and that is a 
major symptom of a personality disorder. 


*puts on her social worker hat*

A couple of people have highlighted this now.  This isn't the first post he's made this comment in. I believe it's also on the Sadist thread and is the reason I made the tongue in cheek remark I did in an earlier post.

It annoys the hell out of me when people take information like this and skew it to their way of thinking.  I'm assuming that the personality disorder he is referring to is Anti-Social Personality Disorder.  It is not uncommon for people with this diagnosis have a lengthy criminal record and a history of violence.  It is also diagnosed much more in men than women.  For any personality disorder there are criteria that have to be met.  Usually it's 5 or my of the listed criteria.  Further, it has to interfere with the person's normal daily life, social structure, etc.  Everyone will meet some of the criteria of any given personality disorder.  It's when they meet a certain number and it affects daily life, i.e, becomes debilitating, affects inter-personal relationships, etc,  that it becomes a diagnosis of a personality disorder.

Throwing out those blanket comments like that to condemn another's behavior is wrong on so many levels.  Being a sadist does not make one mentally ill.

*takes off her hat*






TxBadMan -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/21/2006 2:08:41 PM)

quote:

When you flog a bottom do you strive to give her
pleasure or pain?


I strive to give pain. If she gets pleasure from the pain, all the better; however, it does not change my motivation.
quote:

My feeling is male sadist tops would rather flog a
bottom who is not submissive, who is bitchy, who
doesn't enjoy pain, who recoils from being flogged
but allows you to flog her anyway.  
 

I have to disagree with this. I don't want a girl who's going to fight at every turn. Nor do I want one who just lays there like a board waiting to snap in two.
I flog my girl for the simple reason that I can. I enjoy the pain that I inflict on her.
My girl fights me back when she feels the need to. Why? Because she can, and because it's allowed and encouraged. We tend to be very primal in that respect.
Then there are times that she just simply enjoys the pain being inflicted and flows with it. Much depends on her state of mind at that time. I would also like to point out that my girl is not a masochist. Yet, she does not simply allow me to inflict pain on her. She interacts with me during those times. A huge difference.
quote:

Many "real" sexual sadists are in jail for non consensual acts  

Hmm, really? Please elaborate on this assumption; and please, define 'real' for us.
I am an extreme sadist. What's more, I find it extremely arousing to see the suffering on the face of my girl when I am causing her pain. Whether it be from the end of a cane, or from me denying her something that she wants desperatly.
quote:

Part of my theory states that
there are Dommes, but not many female sexual sadists

And from where do you base this theory on? Where I live, there are just as many female sadists as there are male; if not more.
quote:

I think most male subs are really masochists, not true submissives

This I find to be insulting to the male submissive population. A generalization such as this, stated in such a way, shows ignorance on your part.
quote:

I suspect most female subs into D/s do need
a personal relationship
with people they play with

The slave I have now, there is no emotional, or personal feelings involved at all. Ours is an arrangement between two people, each of us seeking that which we have found in the other. She was seeking service; I was seeking one who would serve.
quote:

I suspect that female subs who are not into D/s
who are just into S&M are at times willing to have anyone
top them so long as the person is competent with their
tools and can be trusted not to violate their hard limits. 


I do not live with my girl; however, I do still share a house with Tikk ( whom I have had a relationship with in the past ). She is so hard core that no one can touch her unless they know her extremely well. I am talking a couple years here. There are reasons why this rule is in place; and it is one that she holds to. No exceptions.
Just because you are competant with a tool, does not mean that you know how to use it properly. Such a statement is misleading at best. To think otherwise, often leads to disaster.
quote:

  It helps to understand others before you go ballastic.


A piece of advice that you, yourself should hold to.
quote:

  
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> Actually, a femsub just into pain and not into Ds is termed a bottom masochist.
 
Right!  But "sub" has come to be an all inclusive term, and usually most female
bottom masochists tend to have at least a little sub in them, too.   "Sub" seems
to have become a generic term.


It is not an inclusive term. Someone that labels themselves as a masochist bottom is not a sub. Tikkiee is an example... she does not call herself a sub. It is not a generic term, especially when you want to put people into boxes. You are trying to categorize us, try using established categories instead of making it up as you go along

Nicely stated [:)]
quote:

  It is the application of statistics that can skew the results. Example of misinterpretation: Not having a large enough sample to keep the margin of error from being significant. I suppose if your uses are interpersonal relationships and for your own use, 30 individuals would be ok. But those 30 individuals responding are not all from the same categories. Some of us are bottoms, some are tops, some are female and some are male, some are sadists and some are masochists. Your sample needs 30 of these discrete categories. I got an A in stats[:)]


LOL from my time with Tikk, I have learned one thing. Never argue with a scientist; or a professional researcher.
quote:

   A "real pain slut" may have a night where the pain isn't pleasurable at all, or they just cannot take much.

This, I needed to add some imput. Tikk is probably the most hard-core, into pain, masochist I have ever met. Literally. She does not do this for the rush of pleasure that most derive from pain; hers stems from a different direction. I have seen her take a caning that lasted more than two hours; followed by a flogging, and intense impact play on her breasts and genitals;  and then turn around the next time and not be able to take more than a single swipe. It all depends on the headspace that the person receiving the pain is in.
On the other hand, my girl now is not a masochist. She hates pain of any kind. Yet, there are times that her headspace is just right that she begs for it. And not to please me, but because she is actually craving it.
quote:

I find that very sad that you are unable to accept who you are and think that you have to feel guilty for it. 


Miss Kyra, I would have to second this.




twicehappy -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/22/2006 4:09:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

MzMinx wrote:
> you say you are an atheist... but want to start  your own religion

There is no God in the religion I am starting.  It seems like you
don't bother to read my posts.


And again i say; If he offers you koolaid just say no!




WhipTheHip -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/22/2006 5:27:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

MzMinx wrote:
> you say you are an atheist... but want to start  your own religion

There is no God in the religion I am starting.  It seems like you
don't bother to read my posts.


And again i say; If he offers you koolaid just say no!


We don't serve poison KooAid, we don't believe the Feds are after us, we don't collect guns, we are not survivalists, we don't cut people off from their friends and family, we don't believe in UFOs hiding behind comets, murdering famous actresses or breaking any law.  We believe in balance, in helping others, in lessening human and animal suffering, not increasing it.   We believe in laughter, tasty food, positive thinking, and being an open society.   We have positive, constructive values that make the body stronger, the heart stronger, and the mind stronger.  We believe in forgiveness, compassion, understanding, and empathy.  We help the needy, the poor, the disabled, the orphan, the widow, the outcast, the lonely and the mentally ill.   




Kree -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/22/2006 4:57:43 PM)

Open comment to WhipTheLip:

Why must you argue every point anyone makes and never listen to what they say?  Your mushy profile and your constant commants about "only you have whatever trait" have gotten quite old.  You bring your own experience into question with your rolling in the dirt over every word in every post.  If you really ever expect to find happiness in this lifestyle, start learning how a dominant acts and reacts.

Open comment to those who are too blind to see:

Cant you people see this guy is trolling his ass off and using your responses to try to make himself look wise and experienced?  It isnt working, but you are like a damn fool that is caught in quicksand and asks for someone to hand them 200 pounds of lead weights to help you sink faster.  We just had a thread on beating dead horses, but we didnt even address this foolishness.  If dead horses were terrorists, those who cant let this guy make stupid comments and argue just for the hell of it, would have our troops coming home by now.  Julia... when you roll in the mud with a pig, you both get dirty, but the pig loves it.

 




juliaoceania -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/22/2006 5:17:31 PM)

If you had been paying attention you would have seen an apology from me several posts ago to WhipTheHip, it is best to read evrerything before we point fingers otherwise we look as bad as those we are scolding, I also emailed him to make sure he saw my public apology. I left this thread days ago and yet you are still here insulting people..pot calling the kettle black




Kree -> RE: Ideal fantasy top? Ideal fantasy bottom? (8/22/2006 5:33:51 PM)

Julia
First, you were still posting on this thread yesterday, so you didnt leave it "days ago".  Second, I did read this thread and I stick with the comment that when someone starts thread after thread to troll a board, there is a red flag being waved.  I DID check the number of posts on the boards for the past 2 days and I suppose the fact that you had made 100 posts in two days made me think you had posted more to this one than you did. 
I am not "still here insulting people".  This is my first and ONLY post on this thread.  I dont need to post 30 or 40 times to make a comment about something.  If you feel insulted by my comment, I would point out that if you really read it, you just might realize that YOU werent the pig that was enjoying rolling in the mud. That isnt really important anyway.  What to me is important is that people might just think a little before they enable trolling by feeding it.

Btw... send whatever little tacky flames you wish, I have made the point I wished to make.  I am sure it will go unheeded, but I feel better for it because there just might be someone out there who realizes what is going on and stops enabling.




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