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Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria... - 8/21/2006 6:36:01 AM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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Two interesting new applications of controlled application of microbes into products for human consumption...

Spraying of bacteriophages onto meats. Bacteriophages are essentially parasitic viruses that attack bacteria.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/19/us/19viruses.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Mixing of live bacteria into toothpaste and chewing gum. The bacteria are of the Lactobacillus family, which are normally not harmful to humans. They will compete with pathogenic bacteria such as Steptococcus to provide their benefits.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5259314.stm

Post #: 1

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 7:15:05 AM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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They are talking about irradiating meat to kill shit on it, and other foods. I do not know why people do not understand that we have certain ecology of parasites within our bodies and that if we leave well enough alone we should be able to fight off bad microbes. People who have a low resistence should be treated individually, instead of performing these experiments with the general population to see if their "theories" work... it just pisses me off.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 2

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 7:37:40 AM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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I don't know for exactly how long, but irradiation of meat has been widely practiced for years here in the US to reduce bacterial counts. Are you saying that you believe that efforts to control the levels of bacteria in food and water (and perhaps elsewhere) are counterproductive?

I am aware that exposure to lower levels, of some pathogens, can actually be beneficial for the immune system, but the public health community is of course well aware of these things too.

I am not sure what you are advocating, but simply allowing "nature to take it's course", if you will, would send us back to the Middle Ages, which weren't a very healthy time to be alive. Life expectancies were I think in the mid 30's, this due in large part to the complete reliance on the immune system to defend against unchecked microbial exposure.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 3

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 7:40:50 AM

ownedgirlie

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This is precisely why I buy and eat organic whenever possible.

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 4

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 7:48:51 AM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

This is precisely why I buy and eat organic whenever possible.

You may like to consider that organic yogurt is full of Lactobacillus - the same family that they expect to introduce in toothpaste and chewing gum...

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 5

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 8:14:08 AM

gooddogbenji

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Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

I don't know for exactly how long, but irradiation of meat has been widely practiced for years here in the US to reduce bacterial counts. Are you saying that you believe that efforts to control the levels of bacteria in food and water (and perhaps elsewhere) are counterproductive?

I am aware that exposure to lower levels, of some pathogens, can actually be beneficial for the immune system, but the public health community is of course well aware of these things too.

I am not sure what you are advocating, but simply allowing "nature to take it's course", if you will, would send us back to the Middle Ages, which weren't a very healthy time to be alive. Life expectancies were I think in the mid 30's, this due in large part to the complete reliance on the immune system to defend against unchecked microbial exposure.

I don't think anyone is saying killing off bacteria is directly counterproductive, but every time we kill off bacteria rather than get exposed to it we lose an opportunity to strengthen our immune systems. Each individual step is insignificant, but when is it too much?

The middle ages also had other issues - untreated sewage being dumped, by the bucket (Literally) into drinking water sources, no refrigeration or proper food storage, overcrowded cities (Yes, I know we have a higher pop. density today, but we also have taller buildings, thus more space on every floor) no medical treatment short of sawing off limbs and leaches, and shitty music. So saying that not radiating meat is like going back to the middle ages is a somewhat hyperbolic, no?

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 6

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 8:16:07 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

This is precisely why I buy and eat organic whenever possible.

You may like to consider that organic yogurt is full of Lactobacillus - the same family that they expect to introduce in toothpaste and chewing gum...

I do consider it. Some bacterias are helpful to us, which is why I take an acidophilus/bifidophilus supplement, rather than antibiotics, when I get sick.

But I don't eat yogurt, since dairy doesn't like me much :)

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 7

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 8:46:16 AM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
I do consider it. Some bacterias are helpful to us, which is why I take an acidophilus/bifidophilus supplement, rather than antibiotics, when I get sick.

You are probably aware of this, but while using "good bacteria" in the gut and also the vagina is helpful to keep down pathogenic microbes there, these sorts of bacteria are no substitute for systemic antibiotics. If you have a bacterial respiratory infection, for example, you can't help yourself with "good bacteria".

The main problem with antibiotics is that they are commonly used when there is not even a bacterial infection, due to a combination of patient pressure and physician expediancy. In this case, you get the deleterious killing of the "good bacteria", without any benefits. Additionally, there is the larger problem of selecting for and breeding resistant strains of bacteria due to inappropriate use of antibiotics.

Likewise, some of the new antibacterial soaps are questionable, in that they may select for resistant bacteria (depending on the mechanism they use for bacteriacidal activity).

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 8

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 8:50:12 AM

mnottertail

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This leads me to believe that we should revisit the thread Toothpaste on your clit, get Docter Dubious to see if he can get his thread attached here........the one about bacteria up your butt...........

Truth is, we would die without certain bacteria and viruses, near instantaneously.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 9

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 8:53:11 AM

ownedgirlie

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Yes, I am aware of the need for and overuse of antibiotics. I am not saying I won't take them. I am saying I will take them only when it is actually necessary.

I'm glad you bring these points up, though, as they are unknown to many. Many (like one of my sisters), grabs her antiobiotics at the first sign of a sniffle. One of the many reasons I buy organic products is that I would prefer to maintain my own intake of antibiotics, and most of our meat and dairy products are full of them.

Great thread, by the way. I just finished a Nutrition class, in which topics like organics, supplements, and GMO foods were debated heavily. :)

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 10

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 9:10:38 AM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
I'm glad you bring these points up, though, as they are unknown to many. Many (like one of my sisters), grabs her antiobiotics at the first sign of a sniffle.

The patient pull for antibiotics is very powerful. Although people invariably blame doctors when they talk about excessive use of medications, it is a fact that the majority of people are not happy when they visit the doctor unless they come home with at least one prescription, and they pressure their doctors for those medications. At some level, the doctor-patient relationship is that of service provider-customer, and no service provider likes to look at unhappy/angry customers all the time, to say nothing of the fact that it's bad for business.

I am not saying doctors aren't partly to blame as well - after all, as the professionals, they should be more resolute in looking after the patients' best interests, and more cautious in prescription as the most expedient route to getting them out the door.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
I just finished a Nutrition class, in which topics like organics, supplements, and GMO foods were debated heavily. :)

I am a moderate on most of these topics

All of them have their valid advantages and problems.

I am not a big fan of so-called nutraceuticals and "natural medicines" though. Not only are they in most cases lacking in efficacy, they are in some cases also dangerous. Despite popular perception, there is no reason to believe that an untested natural compound is going to be safer, let alone work more effectively, than a highly tested artifical compound. Rather, common sense would suggest the opposite. After the revelations of serious toxic drug interactions coming from St John's Wort, considered at the time the most thoroughly tested and best established of the natural medicines, I pretty much wrote them off for my own use. With these substances, people are the guinea pigs, and there is not even an effective means of sharing and reporting the results of the "experiments".

< Message edited by Daddy4UdderSlut -- 8/21/2006 9:37:31 AM >

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 11

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 9:20:39 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I have no issue with using biotic suppliments to build resistance. I do have a problem when things are altered from their original state. I have eaten foods with biotic organisms to fight certain things in my system. I am saying that if they did not experiment with our food supply we would not need to add bacteria and viruses to our food. I am a proponent of organic myself, and I am really tired of my body being subjected to experimentation by allowing additives to be introduced. The mass manufacturing of processed foods has caused our systems to be exposed to things they do not even have to list according to fed laws. There are 100s of these additives that do not have to be listed.

Most of us live fine without bacteria in our toothpaste, and we would like the meat to come to us without irradiation and hormones I might add. The food isn't wholesome in my opinion. Many people are choosing organics...

I am on antibiotics right now after a month of struggling to rid myself of a bug naturally. I tried and tried to rid myself of it, but I gave in for fear it would spread to other organs. I am not happy about it, I like that the option is there, but it always a last resort... so do not misunderstand that I do think that science has its place, consensually. In other words I want to have informed consent. I want to know what is going into my body before I ingest it.

Like Benji said, if we alter things we do not give our bodies the strength to resist bugs that are out there, and when we finally come into contact with one, we have no immunity. It is why I do not use antibacterial soap at home, or worry about pathogens. That is just me, could be wrong, etc

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 12

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 9:41:42 AM

BrutalAntipathy

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Antibiotics certainly play a major role in our susceptability to bacteria. And as Daddy mentioned, patients demanding a medication for little Timmy's sniffles has hurt us. Physicians ultimately gave in when parents began saying " Well, if you won't give it to me, i'll go to a doctor that will! "

The recent trend in bottle feeding an infant formula rather than breast feeding has probably done as much damage to our immune systems as have antibiotics, though. The immunoglobulins such as IGA and colostrum found in breast milk protect the gastrointestinal tract, and are lost on infants that are purely formula fed.

Our bodies have a symbiotic relationship with various bacteria, and digestion would be all but impossible without some of them. We also play host to some parasitic bacteria, and there are several that are just along for the ride, seeming to play no part in our biology whatsoever.

I straddle the fence on some issues, being a fan of both organic produce and irradiation.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 13

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 9:49:58 AM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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juliaoceania - well, I don't think we are very far in viewpoint on many issues. The main place where I would differ is again the notion that the healthiest thing to do about microbes is to "not worry about them".

If we look even today, at 3rd world countries, where food and water hygiene are poorly practiced, you find two interesting things. First, if a westerner visits there and just adopts the habits of the locals, they quickly fall ill, as they lack the resistance of the locals. This bolsters your view. However, second, if we look at the rates of serious, debilitating and in some cases fatal diseases suffered by the locals that result from microbial pathogens, and compare them to rates in highly developed nations, there is just no comparison. Things are far worse in 3rd world nations.

The immune system is extremely powerful. But it's just not reliable as the sole means of protecting the body. Microbes are vast in variety and in mechanisms of transmission, infection and pathogenesis. They are also extremely powerful. That's why developed nations benefit from cleaner water and food (lower in microbial counts).

< Message edited by Daddy4UdderSlut -- 8/21/2006 9:53:04 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 14

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 9:50:58 AM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

Antibiotics certainly play a major role in our susceptability to bacteria. And as Daddy mentioned, patients demanding a medication for little Timmy's sniffles has hurt us. Physicians ultimately gave in when parents began saying " Well, if you won't give it to me, i'll go to a doctor that will! "

The recent trend in bottle feeding an infant formula rather than breast feeding has probably done as much damage to our immune systems as have antibiotics, though. The immunoglobulins such as IGA and colostrum found in breast milk protect the gastrointestinal tract, and are lost on infants that are purely formula fed.

Our bodies have a symbiotic relationship with various bacteria, and digestion would be all but impossible without some of them. We also play host to some parasitic bacteria, and there are several that are just along for the ride, seeming to play no part in our biology whatsoever.

I straddle the fence on some issues, being a fan of both organic produce and irradiation.

I do not like my informed consent taken away from me. I also do not approve of government intervention in making foods like raw milk and non-irradiated meat hard to come by. Thats all I am saying. When foods are not marked with what they contain or how they are treated it is hard to have informed consent.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BrutalAntipathy)

Post #: 15

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 10:11:37 AM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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For what it's worth, one of the related areas that's receiving a lot of attention lately is the value of immune system exposure to antigens (basically, anything that will bind to antibodies), for avoiding the risk of immune system disorders, like allergies, where an inappropriate immune system response is responsible for the problem.

It will take some time to sort through things though and really discern, where, when and how exposure to which antigens can be beneficial, but I think this area is pretty cool. The example given in some introductory discussions is that it's been determined that children who are exposed to domestic animals (like when they grow up on a farm), are less likely to develop allergies later on.

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 16

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 10:15:16 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

Despite popular perception, there is no reason to believe that an untested natural compound is going to be safer, let alone work more effectively, than a highly tested artifical compound. Rather, common sense would suggest the opposite.

Herbs usually do not have side effects, whereas many artificial medicines do. Once you start taking blood thinners for example the amount of pills you need to take avalanches.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
After the revelations of serious toxic drug interactions coming from St John's Wort, considered at the time the most thoroughly tested and best established of the natural medicines, I pretty much wrote them off for my own use.

You may also consider this from the other side: the artificial drugs were never tested in combination with St. John's Wort. So the testing of the latter is not to blame, but the inept testing of the artificial drugs.

I have observed that anywhere a physician is present people who are ill also will occur. This implies a causal relationship... From my point of view - and bad experiences - this would be a healthier world if all physicians took their own medications and died from it.

I would rather die than be treated by a physician - except for an appendicitis or prostate operation, or other minor treatment; I do not expect any.

Since this year we have obligatory health insurance in The Netherlands. This displeases me.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/21/2006 10:17:20 AM >

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 17

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 10:25:23 AM

BrutalAntipathy

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Joined: 7/8/2005
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Pesticides now.... hooo, boy! I had rather eat the insects they kill rather than get within 10 feet of some pesticides! But we aren't normally told what pesticides are being used on our produce either. I think that frightens me more than any additive, up to and including steroids ( which I am certainly not a fan of, either. )

As for informed consent, I do agree that we should be told what we are about to ingest. I suspect that the fast food industry would see a sharp decline were this to happen. Then again, so would the dairy and meat market in general.

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)

Post #: 18

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 10:28:15 AM

Chaingang

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Someone else said it best elsewhere, so I borrow from that unknown source: "Good food grows lieterally on trees."

Why can't we just leave certain things alone? Our own idiotic hubris will be the death of us.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 19

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/21/2006 10:31:22 AM

Daddy4UdderSlut

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Joined: 4/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

Despite popular perception, there is no reason to believe that an untested natural compound is going to be safer, let alone work more effectively, than a highly tested artifical compound. Rather, common sense would suggest the opposite.

Herbs usually do not have side effects, whereas many artificial medicines do. Once you start taking blood thinners for example the amount of pills you need to take avalanches.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
After the revelations of serious toxic drug interactions coming from St John's Wort, considered at the time the most thoroughly tested and best established of the natural medicines, I pretty much wrote them off for my own use.

You may also consider this from the other side: the artificial drugs were never tested in combination with St. John's Wort. So the testing of the latter is not to blame, but the inept testing of the artificial drugs.

I have observed that anywhere a physician is present people who are ill also will occur. This implies a causal relationship... From my point of view - and bad experiences - this would be a healthier world if all physicians took their own medications and died from it.

I would rather die than be treated by a physician - except for an appendicitis or prostate operation, or other minor treatment; I do not expect any.

Since this year we have obligatory health insurance in The Netherlands. This displeases me.

Yes, you also said in another post that all scientists were stupid and the scientific literature only filled with nonsense.

What is your theory then, as to the explanation for the current life expectancy of individuals being nearly trebled over that in the past, when the evil modern medicine and public health practices were not performed?

And what is your theory for why the life expectancy today in 3rd world nations, where the evil modern medicine and public health practices are performed less often and less extensively, is about half that of developed nations?

Surely there is some hidden alternate explanation for these strong observations then? In fact, if modern medicine and public health practices are actually so dangerous, then if anything the hidden explanation must not only exist, but be:
a. More powerful, because it overwhelms them
b. Correlated - it must be expressed more strongly everywhere that modern medicine and public health practices are expressed, so as to rescue us from them

I ask you - what is the alternative mechanism then? And how is it applied ever more strongly wherever modern medicine and public health practices are applied to combat their effects?

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 20

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