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RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 7:13:18 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 8:38:59 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

The main problem with antibiotics is that they are commonly used when there is not even a bacterial infection, due to a combination of patient pressure and physician expediancy. 


This is not entirely true.

The human immune system can program itself to fight either virii or bacteria, but not both at the same time.  In fact, when the immune system is fighting a virus, the bacterial defenses are lowered. 

The main contradiction to this occurs during women who are pregnant, who have heightened immunity to both.

Go figure.

So antibiotics are often prescribed to aid the body (fighting a virus) to not pick up an opportunistic bacterial infection when it is not primed to fight said bacterial infection.

Having said that, I seldom take antibiotics unless a doctor can conclusively prove to me that I have a bacterial infection.  There are recent studies (Discover, Scientific American cited these last year) which indicated that widespread use of antibiotics kills off beneficial bacterial flora, which can have deleterious effects on a person's health.

As far as antibacterial soap is concerned, you people may know that in microbiology class, one of the assignments is to find the living bacteria which LIVE in these antibacterial soaps.

Wash your hands, but more importantly, dont touch your eyes, nose, and mouth, and you will most likely not get sick.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 8:42:12 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
The patient pull for antibiotics is very powerful.  Although people invariably blame doctors when they talk about excessive use of medications, it is a fact that the majority of people are not happy when they visit the doctor unless they come home with at least one prescription, and they pressure their doctors for those medications. 


This also is not entirely true.

The widespread growth of antibiotic resistant infections is due in large part to the lay use of antibiotics for farm animals, where the medicines are used as a prophylactic and not used under medical supervision.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 8:52:07 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

The main problem with antibiotics is that they are commonly used when there is not even a bacterial infection, due to a combination of patient pressure and physician expediancy. 


This is not entirely true.

The human immune system can program itself to fight either virii or bacteria, but not both at the same time.  In fact, when the immune system is fighting a virus, the bacterial defenses are lowered. 

The main contradiction to this occurs during women who are pregnant, who have heightened immunity to both.

Go figure.

So antibiotics are often prescribed to aid the body (fighting a virus) to not pick up an opportunistic bacterial infection when it is not primed to fight said bacterial infection.

Having said that, I seldom take antibiotics unless a doctor can conclusively prove to me that I have a bacterial infection.  There are recent studies (Discover, Scientific American cited these last year) which indicated that widespread use of antibiotics kills off beneficial bacterial flora, which can have deleterious effects on a person's health.

As far as antibacterial soap is concerned, you people may know that in microbiology class, one of the assignments is to find the living bacteria which LIVE in these antibacterial soaps.

Wash your hands, but more importantly, dont touch your eyes, nose, and mouth, and you will most likely not get sick.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy


So, I get your statement that says "This is not entirely true"... but how is what follows that actually a refutation of what I said?

_____________________________

When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts, and merry, May Providence protect me from The fool as adversary, Whose mind to him a kingdom is Where reason lacks dominion, Who calls conviction prejudice And prejudice opinion.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 8:53:22 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

Whether you believe it or not, all large pharmaceutical companies have, and have had natural products drug discovery efforts for many decades.  Some smaller drug companies have natural products as their *sole* strategy.  Look here for example at a Gordon Research Conference posting on Natural Products Chemistry:


The Food and Drug Adminstration has as it's charter to prevent harmful food or drugs from entering the marketplace.

It does this quite well.  Anybody wishing to put a new drug or food on the market has to jump through a vast number of extremely expensive hoops to get it approved. 

The only entity on the planet which can actually get something approved are large scale corporations where the ethics of healing the afflicted comes secondary to profit motive.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:01:14 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

Unlike all three of you guys, I *am* a scientist. 

So, while anyone with a keyboard can denounce science...



Anybody with a keyboard can also pretend they are a scientist.

Which specific scientific journals were you published in, and who were the authors, so that I can review your work as well as the peer review of said work?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:01:41 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
The patient pull for antibiotics is very powerful.  Although people invariably blame doctors when they talk about excessive use of medications, it is a fact that the majority of people are not happy when they visit the doctor unless they come home with at least one prescription, and they pressure their doctors for those medications. 


This also is not entirely true.

The widespread growth of antibiotic resistant infections is due in large part to the lay use of antibiotics for farm animals, where the medicines are used as a prophylactic and not used under medical supervision.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

I know that some people believe that - but it was certainly not the principal mechanism as discussed when I took microbiology.  As you must know, many bacteria that can infect animals cannot infect humans.  In theory, I can think of two routes through which the resistance could be transferred from animals to humans - mutation of the resistant bacterium so that it *can* infect humans, or exchange of bacterial genes between species or subspecies through plasmids... so yes, in principle, that is also a caustive mechanism for conferring resistance.

Of course, we already know that resistant bacteria *are* bred in humans through indiscriminant use of antibotics there.  Hospitals for example, are notoriously unhealthy because they are a selection and breeding ground for strains of bacteria with multiple antibiotic resistance.  Even Vancomycin, the antibiotic of last resort, has proven ineffective against many hospital-acquired staphylococcus infections.

_____________________________

When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts, and merry, May Providence protect me from The fool as adversary, Whose mind to him a kingdom is Where reason lacks dominion, Who calls conviction prejudice And prejudice opinion.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:03:05 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

Unlike all three of you guys, I *am* a scientist. 

So, while anyone with a keyboard can denounce science...



Anybody with a keyboard can also pretend they are a scientist.

Which specific scientific journals were you published in, and who were the authors, so that I can review your work as well as the peer review of said work?

Sinergy

With all the crackpots here, I have no desire to give literature reference to myself, and I couldn't less what you think.

_____________________________

When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts, and merry, May Providence protect me from The fool as adversary, Whose mind to him a kingdom is Where reason lacks dominion, Who calls conviction prejudice And prejudice opinion.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:05:26 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

Whether you believe it or not, all large pharmaceutical companies have, and have had natural products drug discovery efforts for many decades.  Some smaller drug companies have natural products as their *sole* strategy.  Look here for example at a Gordon Research Conference posting on Natural Products Chemistry:


The Food and Drug Adminstration has as it's charter to prevent harmful food or drugs from entering the marketplace.

It does this quite well.  Anybody wishing to put a new drug or food on the market has to jump through a vast number of extremely expensive hoops to get it approved. 

The only entity on the planet which can actually get something approved are large scale corporations where the ethics of healing the afflicted comes secondary to profit motive.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

And your point is?

_____________________________

When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts, and merry, May Providence protect me from The fool as adversary, Whose mind to him a kingdom is Where reason lacks dominion, Who calls conviction prejudice And prejudice opinion.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:06:11 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

With all the crackpots here, I have no desire to give literature reference to myself, and I couldn't less what you think.


I find the most amusing crackpots are the ones who pretend to be scientists.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:08:18 PM   
herwhim


Posts: 5
Joined: 2/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Herbs usually do not have side effects, whereas many artificial medicines do. Once you start taking blood thinners for example the amount of pills you need to take avalanches.

 
This is incorrect, and is a dangerous myth. Pharmacologically active herbs are more likely to have side effects (the active ingredient faces a similar likelihood of side effects as do manufactured medicines, while herbs often contain other substances). Luckily, many supposed natural remedies have no effect whatsoever -- neither curative nor side effects, so those are safer, but there's also no point in taking them. And some of these remedies have no non-placebo therapeutic benefit but do have side effects.
 
Drugs have dangerous side effects, and that should be considered carefully before taking them. But untested remedies are hardly the solution. The greatest advancement in the history of medicine was the randomized double-blinded placebo-controlled trial.

quote:


I have observed that anywhere a physician is present people who are ill also will occur. This implies a causal relationship... From my point of view - and bad experiences - this would be a healthier world if all physicians took their own medications and died from it.
 
I would rather die than be treated by a physician - except for an appendicitis or prostate operation, or other minor treatment; I do not expect any.
 


I am sorry your experience has been so bad. I find it unfortunate that leads you to spread ignorant and unfounded ideas in a public forum, potentially endanger the health of gullible readers. I hope that those reading your comments will figure out by the point where you wish all physicians dead that you aren't to be taken seriously. I fear some will listen anyway. I hope that you find better health and more sense. Be well.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:08:39 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

With all the crackpots here, I have no desire to give literature reference to myself, and I couldn't less what you think.


I find the most amusing crackpots are the ones who pretend to be scientists.

Sinergy

Do your worst, Sinergy... if you understand what you pretend to, you will readily recognize what I say as the truth.  Of course, you might just go on anyway, though, yes?

_____________________________

When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts, and merry, May Providence protect me from The fool as adversary, Whose mind to him a kingdom is Where reason lacks dominion, Who calls conviction prejudice And prejudice opinion.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:22:30 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
The patient pull for antibiotics is very powerful.  Although people invariably blame doctors when they talk about excessive use of medications, it is a fact that the majority of people are not happy when they visit the doctor unless they come home with at least one prescription, and they pressure their doctors for those medications. 


This also is not entirely true.

The widespread growth of antibiotic resistant infections is due in large part to the lay use of antibiotics for farm animals, where the medicines are used as a prophylactic and not used under medical supervision.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

I know that some people believe that - but it was certainly not the principal mechanism as discussed when I took microbiology.  As you must know, many bacteria that can infect animals cannot infect humans.  In theory, I can think of two routes through which the resistance could be transferred from animals to humans - mutation of the resistant bacterium so that it *can* infect humans, or exchange of bacterial genes between species or subspecies through plasmids... so yes, in principle, that is also a caustive mechanism for conferring resistance.

Of course, we already know that resistant bacteria *are* bred in humans through indiscriminant use of antibotics there.  Hospitals for example, are notoriously unhealthy because they are a selection and breeding ground for strains of bacteria with multiple antibiotic resistance.  Even Vancomycin, the antibiotic of last resort, has proven ineffective against many hospital-acquired staphylococcus infections.

So here is a reference to an article in CDC Emerging Infectious Diseases -
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no2/weinstein.htm

The CDC knows a little bit about infections.  Here is the abstract from the article:
quote:

Antimicrobial-drug resistance in hospitals is driven by failures of hospital hygiene, selective pressures created by overuse of antibiotics, and mobile genetic elements that can encode bacterial resistance mechanisms. Attention to hand hygiene is constrained by the time it takes to wash hands and by the adverse effects of repeated handwashing on the skin. Alcohol-based hand rubs can overcome the time problem and actually improve skin condition. Universal gloving could close gaps left by incomplete adherence to hand hygiene. Various interventions have been described to improve antibiotic use. The most effective have been programs restricting use of antibiotics and computer-based order forms for health providers.


_____________________________

When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts, and merry, May Providence protect me from The fool as adversary, Whose mind to him a kingdom is Where reason lacks dominion, Who calls conviction prejudice And prejudice opinion.

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 11:57:10 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Wow.  I left this morning what seemed to be an interesting and healthy discussion (no pun intended).  I returned from an extremely painful day to see this rudeness.  So I won't bother to add what I was going to.  Seems like Daddy4Udderslut did a pretty good job of shutting down the discussion anyway.  Thankfully my doctors and nutritionists are a bit more kind and generous when addressing my questions, comments and concerns. 

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 8/23/2006 12:02:11 AM >

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/23/2006 6:57:18 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		I'll tell you what, if you or, considering julia's model of interacting principally, really -  approach your doctors or nutritionists, and instead of asking any questions or listening to them, just put forth your own theories about science, argue with them ad infinitum when they try to straighten things out, insist that you know everything...

Then you insult them, the FDA, medical science and the drug companies, tell them it's all just a corrupt racket and you'd never trust a thing they say anyway, tell them that you're much safer not listening to them, that they hurt many more people than they ever help... I am going to guess the discussion isn't going to go real well.

Insults, ugly bias, and know-it-all attitude are just a very poor model for a 'discussion'.

< Message edited by Daddy4UdderSlut -- 8/23/2006 7:05:12 AM >

_____________________________

When blithe to argument I come, Though armed with facts, and merry, May Providence protect me from The fool as adversary, Whose mind to him a kingdom is Where reason lacks dominion, Who calls conviction prejudice And prejudice opinion.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/23/2006 8:04:09 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie  Thankfully my doctors and nutritionists are a bit more kind and generous when addressing my questions, comments and concerns. 


Mine too...smiles, I think that comes with having to deal with laypeople that do not know-it-all,  You have to treat people with respect if you are going to be any good at that job because you are treating the whole person. The only time a doc was rude to me was when I was much much younger and I asked why she wanted to put my son on steriods to dry up congestion, being completely unknowledgeable I thought she meant the type of steroids used by weight lifters and I was alarmed. She looked at me with this snide expression and said "Give it to him or don't, Im not going to explain this to you" I got a new doctor that DID explain that this was a completely different sort of steroid. Geesh, its your kid, you are supposed to ask questions, people with God complexes about their "knowledge" are very insecure people in my mind.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 76
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