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RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 9:34:20 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

No company is going to invest in clinical trials for herbs they cannot patent

They never release the numbers of people harmed by pharmecutical drugs.

I am not saying I will never take them, but most of the time the cure is worse than the disease in my mind.

Well, the first statement is true.  Clinical trials are extremely expensive, and can only be justified when there is a substantial return, which normally means some exclusivity in market position.

Note though, that nothing prevents drug companies from identifying and then developing the active ingredients of any natural remedy, and then patenting it, assuming it is found to be safe and effective.  This is just what drug companies do when they do drug discovery among natural products.  Drug companies typically have large libraries of natural products of interest, on the order of 100,000 or more.

As to no followup on safety issues in the marketplace, I quote:
quote:


CDER evaluates the safety profiles of drugs available to American consumers using a variety of tools and disciplines throughout the life cycle of the drugs. We maintain a system of postmarketing surveillance and risk assessment programs to identify adverse events that did not appear during the drug development process. We learn about adverse events through required reporting by companies and through voluntary reports submitted to FDA’s MedWatch program, which together total more than 250,000 reports per year.


And as to the safety information being hidden from consumers, I suggest taking a look at the free information portal at the Office for Drug Safety at the FDA:
http://www.fda.gov/cder/Offices/ODS/default.htm

Most drugs have multiple side effects.  The more that one learns about molecular biology, physiology, and the nature of drug mechanisms, the better that you will understand the basis of these things.  The education is out there, for anyone who wants to get it.

Because of these side effects, it is the conventional practice in medicine for the benefits of taking a drug to be weighed against its adverse effects, and if you look at any therapeutic manual, you will see indications and contraindications for using any treatment.

I am beginning to repeat myself, but for anyone who wants to state that modern medicine is not a pure panacea, I have no arguement with that. But if you are frightened by the list of known side effects and safety issues with studied, licensed and regulated compounds, why on earth would you not be more frightened by the unidentified side effects and safety risks of dietary supplements?  I will repeat, there is no requirement to prove safety or efficacy of such compounds, and once they enter the marketplace, there is also no requirement to monitor or report side effects or safety issues.

Here is a link to an FDA overview of dietary supplements.  If you think things like - well it must be safe or they couldn't sell it, or it must work or they couldn't sell it -.  guess again.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-oview.html

< Message edited by Daddy4UdderSlut -- 8/22/2006 9:43:32 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 10:29:33 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Note though, that nothing prevents drug companies from identifying and then developing the active ingredients of any natural remedy, and then patenting it, assuming it is found to be safe and effective. 
They have no reason to do this because you can get the active ingredient by taking the supplement.

There was a move on the part of pharmaceuticals to make vitamins and herbal supplements by prescription only, why would they care if we take supplements and herbs? They are protecting their bottom line. Believe me, no corporation is going to give a rat's ass that we take these things for "our own good". They see profit obviously.

Some of the things that pharmaceuticals get away with blows my mind. I wouldn't trust them whatsoever. I will take drugs that have been on the market for years, but I am leary of new meds. They have been shown to falsify findings and studies. The medical community is geared to dispense meds for everything from toe nail fungus to facial hair. We are what we eat, and the "daily recommended allowances" should read "daily minimum allowances to sustain life" because that is what they are.

Ownedgirlie, my friend's cousin lost all her hair, was extremely ill, and all the meds they gave her made her sicker instead of better. She got better after taking St John's Wort. People have been using herbal remedies forever, this is why pharmaceuticals go into rainforest for bio-mining. They believe if they use shaman remedies they can trademark them and have exclusive rights to the active ingredients even though the tribe was the one that truly discovered the efficacy and the uses for such plants.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/22/2006 10:32:23 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 10:38:14 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I can add the following...After 6 months of taking a blood pressure pill prescribed as a precaution due to a ruptured blood vessel in my left eye I felt and looked as if I was dying. It took nearly 15 months for the effects to diminish after having stopped taking the pill

When querying with the doc. the symptoms I was suffering his reply was....well we can always try another medication.

Incidently some say I dont look a great deal better now lol.... but I certainly feel better. I do take one aspirin and one omega3 pill daily

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/22/2006 10:42:48 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 10:50:22 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

Note though, that nothing prevents drug companies from identifying and then developing the active ingredients of any natural remedy, and then patenting it, assuming it is found to be safe and effective. 
They have no reason to do this because you can get the active ingredient by taking the supplement.

Whether you believe it or not, all large pharmaceutical companies have, and have had natural products drug discovery efforts for many decades.  Some smaller drug companies have natural products as their *sole* strategy.  Look here for example at a Gordon Research Conference posting on Natural Products Chemistry:
http://www.grc.uri.edu/programs/2005/natprod.htm

- the 54th such conference - look at the sponsors of the conference - they're all drug companies - every one.  GRC conferences are very prestigious, and are held across a wide variety of disciplines - talks are invitation only, and even the attendees must apply and describe how they will enrich the conference by being there.  Natural products have until the last couple of decades, been where most of the work actually *was* in prospecting for new drugs.  You can find books, journals, etc by lots of legitimate scientists who do that work - some of them are my colleagues.

< Message edited by Daddy4UdderSlut -- 8/22/2006 10:51:40 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 10:57:36 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have little trust for these sorts of companies. Their bottom line is their only true responsibility. To increase profit is why they exist at all.

The drug that keeps women from having facial hair cures african sleeping sickness, the pharma that owned it refused to make the pill form of the drug to cure this disease and would not sign off on it because that would disrupt their trademark and patent for the future. African kids do not have much money, so they died even though there was this drug that could cure them, because older women with facial hair have lots of money.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 11:08:24 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have little trust for these sorts of companies. Their bottom line is their only true responsibility. To increase profit is why they exist at all.

Well, drug companies are businesses, and as such are there to make money.  There is no denying that.  They will not develop therapies that they would lose money on, or barely profit from - on the other hand, what business would? If they tried that, they would be extinct soon.

Again, I will remind you that dietary supplement companies are also businesses - they exist to make money.  So whatever brush you try to tar pharma with for being commercial businesses - gasp!, you must also tar the supplement companies with.  

The difference is, dietary supplement companies have no restrictions on their activities, no requirements to prove safety, or efficacy, or to monitor or to report safety.  Yet, you seem to believe that these companies would be the best to deal with.  I hear you keep ranting and railing against evil, corrupt, dishonest pharma, but I still honestly don't see how you could believe that the alternatives would be better?  What is the basis for this belief?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 12:17:38 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

[
The difference is, dietary supplement companies have no restrictions on their activities, no requirements to prove safety, or efficacy, or to monitor or to report safety.  Yet, you seem to believe that these companies would be the best to deal with.  I hear you keep ranting and railing against evil, corrupt, dishonest pharma, but I still honestly don't see how you could believe that the alternatives would be better?  What is the basis for this belief?



I am not ranting, nor am I raving. I am posting words on a message board, I am not cussing, posting in all caps... I do not understand that statement. I am posting an opinion that differs from yours and I am using things that I am aware of in order to do so. Are you a pharmacist or something? You seem emotionally tied to this issue, my only emotional tie is wanting to be healthy and making informed consent about what I put in my body. I think people are very reckless in their approach to drug "therapy" without sitting down and doing a cost-benefit analysis when they put shit in their body. I do this, and I am proud of the fact that I do this because it shows that I am a thinking person and I am not relying on someone in a white coat to be responsible for my medical care, I am ultimately responsible for my health and wellness.

I do not have complete faith in companies watching their bottom line and marketing these drugs as panaceas for every ill, when prevention is worth a pound of cure. I have more faith in myself. I am pointing out that when profit is involved we should beware... we are consumers.. and companies are not in business to help us.

We fund much of the research into new drugs that the pharmas actually produce through our research universities and grants. Here is the richest industry in the world, and they are getting corporate welfare.... I am not ranting about it, I am just informing about it.

Those who are leading the FDA are former pharma corporation executives, this is a little disturbing for me also, and it also reduces my faith in the drug approval process... I am not ranting about this, I am stating an opinion based upon things that I know.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 12:48:21 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I am not ranting, nor am I raving. I am posting words on a message board, I am not cussing, posting in all caps... I do not understand that statement.

Not ranting, eh?  Aside from the factual errors that I have pointed out...

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Some of the things that pharmaceuticals get away with blows my mind. I wouldn't trust them whatsoever.

They have been shown to falsify findings and studies.

Most of the time the cure is worse than the disease.

Yep, sounds like a very well-considered and unbiased view on modern medicine by an expert.

You're so eager to paint a one-sided & negative picture, you even contradicted yourself in the same post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
- They have no reason to do this because you can get the active ingredient by taking the supplement.
- This is why pharmaceuticals go into rainforest for bio-mining. They believe if they use shaman remedies they can trademark them and have exclusive rights to the active ingredients

... so which is it?  They are guilty because they by definition won't develop natural products, or guilty because they do it too aggressively and too often, and screw their collaborators?

You are presenting a very biased and negative view of modern medicine.  There is often some truth in your statements, but invariably fundamental inaccuracies. If you truely were knowledgeable, you wouldn't say what you do.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 12:52:04 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		So Daddy someone else comments on your emotional approach to debate.
You a scientist too.

Big self satisfied lols from me. 

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/22/2006 12:53:08 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 1:57:28 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Vioxx was shown that they falsified findings, hence the lawsuits.

My point about active ingedients in well known supplements and herbal remedies is this: these cannot be trademarked because they are common to all. Like asprin cannot be trademarked. NEW ones can be, so they go bio-mining, I am sorry if i was not clear.

I am not speaking wildly, I have not expressed anything but honest opinions based on what I know but they do not agree with you....ranting and raving have the connotation that I am moving about wildly, screaming like a lunatic with no rational thought process,... if you think that I will happily leave the conversation because it is nonproductive and leave my posts as an explanation of my opinion and people can judge the things I have said on their merit, or lack thereof. It really isn't important to me as long as I take care of me.. others can take care of themselves the way they see fit. I have reasons for what I think, and it is highly unlikely you could change my mind.


Im sorry if I emotionally upset you because I have an opinion about informed consent about what I ingest, and  I have reasons for feeling this way. I think you must work for this industry because of your statements, and of course would be offended that someone challenged you,.. it isn't personal.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/22/2006 1:59:18 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 2:04:59 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		One last thought... I DO NOT TAKE SUPPLEMENTS EITHER (I thought I would rant a little...smiles, a little humor never hurt!). I eat well. I would not shy from herbal remedies just because there was not billions involved in making them, and I have used them successfully in the past. Most ailments we can only aid healing, the human body does the healing itself

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 2:10:36 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		You are like seeksfemslave speaking on evolution, or estring speaking on global warming.  All three of you have strong opinions, strong bias, and precious little knowledge.  You just assert yourselves as experts and pontificate about things you are completely ignorant of.

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I don't like it when people who have no clue about science mouth off about it in a derogatory manner as if they are experts.

I didn't like it when seeksfemslave did it, I didn't like it when estring did it, and I don't like it when you do it.  Unlike all three of you guys, I *am* a scientist.  I actually have both the education and the experience that you guys lack. I actually understand the things that you guys pretend to.

So, while anyone with a keyboard can denounce science, it doesn't mean that I need to just agree with them.

< Message edited by Daddy4UdderSlut -- 8/22/2006 2:12:25 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 2:21:37 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I never asserted any expertise, I asserted an opinion based upon what I know.

I do not advocate others do any action based upon what I know, but research for themselves and make informed decisions about their health

Untold people have negative experiences with drugs every year, many people reading this will see themselves or their family members in this statement.

We should be cautious about how much trust we have in companies with huge lobbys in washington

I have never said people should or should not take anything, I have stated what I think as a nonexpert

My expertise is in anthropology, not pharmacology.

Many experts disagree with you, I could post links all day and night to "prove" you wrong, but that would be futile. People should really do their own educated research about what they do with their bodies and not trust others to just "tell" them. I have had wonderful doctors that are far more patient about explaning courses of treatment with much more respect than you have shown here. I have also had impatient doctors with no respect for my intellect.. I did not return.

Like I said, I am not going to attack you, but you have never established your own "expertise" and have addressed very few facts (like falsifying Vioxx studies) that I have put forward, and twisting my opinions into some "radical lunatic fringe theorist", I have stated multiple times, I will once again, people should only use  drugs if absolutely necessary, they ALL have risks. I stick to that position and I want informed consent about what I put in my body



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 2:28:05 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
My expertise is in anthropology, not pharmacology.

Believe me, you didn't need to tell me - I know your experience isn't in pharmacology, or anything even close.  I saw it from your first assertions about how the immune system works.  Seeks has no education in biology, Estring has no education in the physical sciences.  The problem is, you guys *act* like you're the experts...  you don't ask any questions - you actually tell all the answers, and when I try to actually get things back on firm ground, you ignore my points and continue with your diatribes.  Yes, that pisses me off.  It's not a dialogue, it's someone without knowledge in an area insulting and lecturing someone *with* knowledge in that area.  Only on the internet!

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 2:34:36 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Ok, I will bite, were the Vioxx studies falsified? Since you are making me seem like some lunatic for thinking if they did it once, who says they will not do it again....

Peace dude... I got better things to do with my day than argue political corruption in Washington and corporate America and the weaknesses with the FDA with someone that would rather talk about how rosy the pharmaceutical companies are and how they are saving the world.. science 101, garbage in garbage out... if the studies are falsified how can we have any kind of reliance on the garbage coming out? Be cautious people, read about drug interactions before you take them.. BE PROACTIVE with your own personal health.. any doctor worth a shit would tell you the same.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 2:39:07 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I got better things to do with my day than argue political corruption in Washington and corporate America and the weaknesses with the FDA with someone that would rather talk about how rosy the pharmaceutical companies are and how they are saving the world.. science 101, garbage in garbage out...

And I have better things to do with my day than argue science with someone who lacks any knowledge whatsoever, but knows all the answers.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 3:17:06 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I can add the following...After 6 months of taking a blood pressure pill prescribed as a precaution due to a ruptured blood vessel in my left eye I felt and looked as if I was dying. It took nearly 15 months for the effects to diminish after having stopped taking the pill

When querying with the doc. the symptoms I was suffering his reply was....well we can always try another medication.

Incidently some say I dont look a great deal better now lol.... but I certainly feel better. I do take one aspirin and one omega3 pill daily


All medications have associated risk... I always read the little pamphlet that comes with any medication I use.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 3:31:07 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
You are like seeksfemslave speaking on evolution, or estring speaking on global warming.

So, while anyone with a keyboard can denounce science, it doesn't mean that I need to just agree with them.


Cant argue with that Daddy, its the emotionally based way that you respond, when challenged, that you just don't seem to get.
To me you "come over" as a junior grade teacher used to getting blind respect from that minority of children who actually want to learn.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the substance of the thread I know but very pleasing to say.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/22/2006 3:48:56 PM >

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 3:38:29 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		People - don't believe all those handy warnings that are printed on every package of medication... those are just the spoor of the axis of evil - the satanic and diabolical FDA, the greedy and corrupt drug companies, and the dishonest and incompetent doctors... they are just health terrorists, this unholy alliance, I tell you, out to steal you blind and suck the life from your poor form in the most horrific and painful manner possible and then to discard you to the vultures after they've gotten all your money.  Those warning are just red herrings... printed there to make you *think* that this is this is all that might possibly happen to you... but all people who take medications and are treated by doctors meet the same fate.... DEATH... Don't let those vultures get their beaks into you - run now... before it's too late!

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bact... - 8/22/2006 7:05:30 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

People - don't believe all those handy warnings that are printed on every package of medication... those are just the spoor of the axis of evil - the satanic and diabolical FDA, the greedy and corrupt drug companies, and the dishonest and incompetent doctors... they are just health terrorists, this unholy alliance, I tell you, out to steal you blind and suck the life from your poor form in the most horrific and painful manner possible and then to discard you to the vultures after they've gotten all your money.  Those warning are just red herrings... printed there to make you *think* that this is this is all that might possibly happen to you... but all people who take medications and are treated by doctors meet the same fate.... DEATH... Don't let those vultures get their beaks into you - run now... before it's too late!



Perfect strawman... all I can say is wow, I never said anything about scientists or doctors. I was talking about what anyone with a high school diploma should know, if you take drugs they can kill you... even a simple antibiotic. You never addressed the Vioxx situation or the fact that many other drugs can be terribly harmful (tylenol comes to mind with liver damage) and we shouldn't take things we do not absolutely need.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Daddy4UdderSlut)
Profile   Post #: 60
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