RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm!

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (Full Version)

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BrutalAntipathy -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 10:36:04 AM)
No side effects with herbs? Is renal failure a side effect? Is death a side effect? A tea made from corn silk can cause renal failure. Foxglove ( from which we get Digitalis ) can cause heart failure. *Here is a link covering the common side effects of many widely used herbs.* http://www.personalhealthzone.com/herbsafety.html I hate to come off like a party pooper, but were herbology so very effective, people from the middle ages would have had life expectancies of longer than 40 years. Modern medicine ( which I do admit grew in part from the systematic study of herbology ) has provided us with lifespans twice the length of those in the 14th century.

mnottertail -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 10:48:04 AM)
Yes, in all cases there is something to be said for the both. Digitalis purpurea is the plant from which we retrive the drug digitalis.........many drugs come from plants........the largest problem is that it is hard to meter the dosage thru teas, and so on. real pharmocognosy requires more than a pick up the 'vinegar douche your way to health and weightloss' pamphlets at the checkout. Drug interactions are definitely described better in the medical books, since they have written down more of the people they have killed by interaction. I am not sure the 40 year lifespan has anything to do with drugs...........of course you need some pretty heavy shit in the way of drugs to knock out the guy whos caratoid arteries you are gonna flense this afternoon. But you need some pretty heavy machinery as well. remember Christiaan Barnard and Groote Shure---- heart transplants you got to kill a couple hundred to get the gimmick. Moderation in anything. Ron

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 10:58:27 AM)
That there are some substances used by traditional healers that are effective is well known to modern medicine. The drug industry has been interviewing traditional healers and mining through their 'remedies' for many decades - that is just a subfield of "natural products" pharmacology investigation, which more generally, looks for therapeutic effects across the entire spectrum of naturally occurring compounds. So, the notion often thrust upon the public by promoters of natural medicines, that there is some conspiracy to hide their efficacy, and that the drug industry just doesn't understand how well they work, is just propaganda from another industry, which is largely unregulated - natural remedies and supplements. The principle distinction between "natural medicines" and FDA-approved medicines, is that one group has been rigorously tested for safety and efficacy, and the other has not. And if you want to point out that some problems still slip through FDA-approved testing, which is of course true... but what does that say about compounds that never even receive anything close to this level of testing?

juliaoceania -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 11:31:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut juliaoceania - well, I don't think we are very far in viewpoint on many issues. The main place where I would differ is again the notion that the healthiest thing to do about microbes is to "not worry about them". I do not obsessively worry about them to the point of being OCD with a bottle of pinesol in my hand everywhere I go, like some people in my family. I have a high level of consciousness about cross contimnation of chemicals and of biohazards. I just do not worry about it and take reasonable precautions. I prefer not to stress on such things or allow them to trouble my mind. quote: If we look even today, at 3rd world countries, where food and water hygiene are poorly practiced, you find two interesting things. First, if a westerner visits there and just adopts the habits of the locals, they quickly fall ill, as they lack the resistance of the locals. This bolsters your view. However, second, if we look at the rates of serious, debilitating and in some cases fatal diseases suffered by the locals that result from microbial pathogens, and compare them to rates in highly developed nations, there is just no comparison. Things are far worse in 3rd world nations No doubt about this. When I was a kid I used to drink out of the streams up in Yosemite, which we are now told is dangerous. I have the bacteria of these streams within my system because I drank from them before this warning was issued. I still drink from them as an adult with no bad effect (although I suppose there could be cholera in the stream from a dead animal, but I do not worry about it). I would not recommend others doing this though, and I would not drink the water in other areas unless I was native to it and my system was immune. I agree with sanitation of water, I wish we would do it differently though. I do not know if I gave the impression of having the sanitation habits of a person in the developing world, or supporting that level of terrible sanitation of eating where we shit for example, it is a wrong inference to what I said. I support natural remedies when one can use them, and prefer my food unadulterated. quote: The immune system is extremely powerful. But it's just not reliable as the sole means of protecting the body. Microbes are vast in variety and in mechanisms of transmission, infection and pathogenesis. They are also extremely powerful. That's why developed nations benefit from cleaner water and food (lower in microbial counts). Hence I stated that I am on antibiotics as I write this post, if I was that dedicated to a sole immune response aiding me I wouldn't have taken antibiotics. It does make me regretful to take them because it is like letting off a nuclear bomb to kill a terrorist cell within my body. It is almost the last result. I have a bladder infection and I do not want my kidneys to become involved. I am not foolhardy enough to think that my immune system can fight everything, but I give it the opportunity.

Rule -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 12:12:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I have a bladder infection and I do not want my kidneys to become involved. Bladder infections are very dangerous indeed. In this case a physician and antibiotics are imperative.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 12:42:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut I don't know for exactly how long, but irradiation of meat has been widely practiced for years here in the US to reduce bacterial counts. Are you saying that you believe that efforts to control the levels of bacteria in food and water (and perhaps elsewhere) are counterproductive? I am aware that exposure to lower levels, of some pathogens, can actually be beneficial for the immune system, but the public health community is of course well aware of these things too. I am not sure what you are advocating, but simply allowing "nature to take it's course", if you will, would send us back to the Middle Ages, which weren't a very healthy time to be alive. Life expectancies were I think in the mid 30's, this due in large part to the complete reliance on the immune system to defend against unchecked microbial exposure. I don't think anyone is saying killing off bacteria is directly counterproductive, but every time we kill off bacteria rather than get exposed to it we lose an opportunity to strengthen our immune systems. Each individual step is insignificant, but when is it too much? The middle ages also had other issues - untreated sewage being dumped, by the bucket (Literally) into drinking water sources, no refrigeration or proper food storage, overcrowded cities (Yes, I know we have a higher pop. density today, but we also have taller buildings, thus more space on every floor) no medical treatment short of sawing off limbs and leaches, and shitty music. So saying that not radiating meat is like going back to the middle ages is a somewhat hyperbolic, no? Yours, benji Sorry, I missed this post before. Certainly hyperbole wasn't what I had in mind. I understood the hypothesis to be that exposure to microbes is good -> Therefore, we shouldn't limit exposure. So, I just tried to point out that applying such reasoning isn't sufficient, with a clear example. You seem to recognize this also, since you point to improper handling of sewage as dangerous, rather than an immune system strengthener. I haven't had a course in immunology, so I can't answer authoritatively here. But I do know that many pathogens can actually weaken the non-specific portion of the immune system. Furthermore, I am not even sure if it's correct to say that the immune system is strengthened by exposure to any pathogens. My incomplete understanding is that exposure to limited pathogen counts (so they don't produce any permanent damage or death) can be beneficial, because that helps to develop the specific or adaptive response of the immune system to this particular source of antigens. In other words, the immune system learns to recognize this xenobiotic susbtance through experience. In this way, the memory component of the immune system can act to produce a more vigorous response to the antigens on a subsequent exposure.

juliaoceania -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 12:47:08 PM)
Immunity to viruses is the cornerstone of the idea behind vaccinations. You can build up a resistance to bacteria by letting your natural defenses destroy it. This is not always the case, but it often is.

Rule -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 12:54:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Yes, you also said in another post that all scientists were stupid and the scientific literature only filled with nonsense. You do me injustice. I never proclaimed these far out generalities. The purpose of my words were to indicate that I am not - and refuse to be - gullible. My exact words (but I will give you that I should have moderated them a bit) were these: quote: ORIGINAL: Rule I have learned to trust no scientist (boy what a silly lot they are - and what stupidities are proclaimed in science articles), and most certainly not any non-scientist. quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut What is your theory then, as to the explanation for the current life expectancy of individuals being nearly trebled over that in the past, when the evil modern medicine and public health practices were not performed? I never disputed that public health practices have been effective. So I will thank you if you limit your question to the evil modern medicine that I did dispute. My answer are these: 1. increased child and mother survival (not thanks to bottled milk) by better midwive practice 2. no starvation or ill health because of hunger 3. vitamins 4. better dental care (toothpaste) 5. improved drainage and sewage systems 6. draining swamps 7. clean water quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut And what is your theory for why the life expectancy today in 3rd world nations, where the evil modern medicine and public health practices are performed less often and less extensively, is about half that of developed nations? Again I will thank you to limit your question only to the evil medicine. For my answers: the lack or insufficient presence of forementioned seven points. quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Surely there is some hidden alternate explanation for these strong observations then? In fact, if modern medicine and public health practices are actually so dangerous, then if anything the hidden explanation must not only exist, but be: a. More powerful, because it overwhelms them b. Correlated - it must be expressed more strongly everywhere that modern medicine and public health practices are expressed, so as to rescue us from them Again I will thank you to limit your question only to the evil modern medicine. The seven hidden explanations I already mentioned twice. Indeed they are more powerful than the evil modern medicine. They are not correlated, but merely practiced by the same cultures. quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut I ask you - what is the alternative mechanism then? And how is it applied ever more strongly wherever modern medicine and public health practices are applied to combat their effects? And this fourth time I again give the same seven answers.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 1:05:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Immunity to viruses is the cornerstone of the idea behind vaccinations. You can build up a resistance to bacteria by letting your natural defenses destroy it. This is not always the case, but it often is. Yes, I agree - vaccinations cause adaptation of the adaptive portion of the immune system. What it really comes down to is that in order for your body to target substances within it for destruction, it needs to "recognize" them. That really comes down to the ability to bind selectively to these substances with specialized immune system components. It's the binding event itself that invokes destruction by other components (such as Killer T-cells and macrophages). The immune system "learns" the form of antigens by exposure to them. There is a very large library of unique and random antibodies present at birth. This library is modified through exposure using a mechanism that is very similar to evolution of organisms, involving random variation, reproduction, and selection. Those antibodies that bind to antigens are copied and varied in rough proportion to the strength of their binding. This explains why exposure can be beneficial. It does not however imply that exposure simply is beneficial. I am just trying to be very clear about that. Vaccines are not any old microbe, given in any old form. If they were, they would kill a lot more people than they protect. Vaccines, where they can be successfully developed, are either just antigenic fragments of the microbe (e.g., characteristic proteins presented on the surface of a bacterium or virus) - a so-called "killed vaccine", or, they are a modified form of the organism, that has been fundamentally "broken" so that it cannot cause pathogenic effects, a so-called "live vaccine".

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 1:34:18 PM)
Rule: At least we agree that modern public health practices are not harmful, and are in fact, helpful. Public health approaches treat a a society, whereas medicine treats an individual - there is some overlap in that, and in fact, the underlying sciences are largely the same. You apparently discount the results of medicine in providing cures, alleviating symptoms and reducing mortality that are in the literature - more of those proclaimed stupidities of scientists I suppose. To be frank, if you were even close in your beliefs to what is known, I would try to discuss it with you. As it is, I am content to agree to disagree. Say what you will - I won't dispute you any more.

juliaoceania -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 2:00:52 PM)
I am not arguing with you, but I am just going to say that I never implied all exposure to cooties is a good thing, I do not intentionally expose myself to ecoli,and other pathogens. I do not live with the thought I can control what happens to me either. You are better suited to control how you take care of your body by giving it clean unadulterated food, proper rest, and exercise then scrubbing your hands incessantly and worrying obsessively. Kids with parents that rush them to the doctor every 5 minutes for every cough and every sniffle. And parents that try to create a sterile environment seem to have the sickest kids.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 2:04:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You are better suited to control how you take care of your body by giving it clean unadulterated food, proper rest, and exercise then scrubbing your hands incessantly and worrying obsessively. Kids with parents that rush them to the doctor every 5 minutes for every cough and every sniffle. And parents that try to create a sterile environment seem to have the sickest kids. I agree. [;)]

Rule -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 2:18:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Rule: At least we agree that modern public health practices are not harmful, and are in fact, helpful. Certainly we agree in that. I am the most objective, logical, reasonable person extant. quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Public health approaches treat a a society, whereas medicine treats an individual - there is some overlap in that, and in fact, the underlying sciences are largely the same. You mean that germs cause disease? That is a bit too simple, isn't it? I know for a fact that physicians cause disease and damage to the individual. Those diseases are called iatrogenic diseases. There have been several books written and published about this subject; hard to get (because possibly their republication is suppressed? I would love to get my hands on some.) quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut You apparently discount the results of medicine in providing cures, alleviating symptoms and reducing mortality that are in the literature - more of those proclaimed stupidities of scientists I suppose. Let's be realistic. The most effective medicine is in the bark of the willow. Then there is the condom, already in use in Roman times. Dental care and drillings and fillings were already practiced in Afghanistan or thereabouts more than three thousand years ago. If modern medicine is so effective, then why cannot they cure me? If it is so effective, then why are the waiting rooms of physicians overflowing? If modern medicine is so effective then why do we spend hundreds of billions on health? If modern medicine is so effective, then why is nearly EVERYBODY ill? What use is alleviating symptoms when you die anyway - after physicians have enriched themselves like vultures by depriving you of your hard-earned money, making disease prone paupers of your relatives? Reducing mortality? EVERYBODY dies. quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut To be frank, if you were even close in your beliefs to what is known, I would try to discuss it with you. I know quite a bit about molecular biology and immunology, D4US. There is none better than me in this world. For these past few years I have been writing a book about the main cause of chronic disease and there is a lot of molecular biology and immunology in it. A few more chapters and additions and editing and I will submit it to a few publishers. quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut As it is, I am content to agree to disagree. Say what you will - I won't dispute you any more. That is quite all right. [;)] I only open my mouth when I am absolutely sure of the truth I am about to proclaim. [8D]

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 2:31:22 PM)
Rule: So, I am not going to reply to your points, which I think amount to little more than insults, conspiracy theories and self-aggrandization. Like seeksfemslave - I will just put you on ignore. The bottom line is, I am troubled by your bombastic and bizarre posts, but don't learn anything from them - that's a net minus. So, I guess I'll just have to wait for the book to come out from the self-proclaimed world's greatest scientist. That is, unless it's suppressed by "them". [8\|]

Bearlee -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 2:51:34 PM)
<grinz> Bladder Infection? Don't they sometimes call that Honeymoonitis? ...okay, I'll be quiet now.

juliaoceania -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 2:59:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bearlee <grinz> Bladder Infection? Don't they sometimes call that Honeymoonitis? ...okay, I'll be quiet now. YES dammit (and that is exactly what my mom called it)

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 3:37:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Bearlee <grinz> Bladder Infection? Don't they sometimes call that Honeymoonitis? ...okay, I'll be quiet now. YES dammit (and that is exactly what my mom called it) We men are fortunate to have fewer plumbing problems than the ladies. At least for a time... Then the old prostate starts to enlarge... I'm afraid I've noticed less time between pit stops since I reached my err... mid-40's... [&:]

ownedgirlie -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/21/2006 11:40:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut The principle distinction between "natural medicines" and FDA-approved medicines, is that one group has been rigorously tested for safety and efficacy, and the other has not. And if you want to point out that some problems still slip through FDA-approved testing, which is of course true... but what does that say about compounds that never even receive anything close to this level of testing? First of all, St. Johns Wort saved my life. It has been my understanding that vitamins and herbs do not undergo the intense case studies like prescription drugs do, because they do not get funding from the FDA for clinical trials like the pharmaceutical companies do. Without grants for clinical trials, supplement manufacturers are forced to seek funding elsewhere, and often times can not. The FDA can not impose regulations on supplements, because there haven't been enough studies conducted to prove or disprove many of the theories about supplements. Can't regulate without studies, can't conduct the studies without funding. Having been seriously unhealthy and under a doctor’s care for a substantial period of time in my past. I was prescribed high doses of various supplements to bring me back to health. Many of the doses I took were well beyond the FDA’s “Tolerable Upper Intake.” During that journey, I read various books, articles and websites on the incorporation of supplements to the diet. The doctor I saw is a nationally renowned physician, endorsed by the Linus Pauling Institute, with letters and editorial published in JAMA and The Medical Tribune, and mentioned in the book, The Yeast Syndrome, with a forward by Linus Pauling. He and the FDA are not “friends,” as they do not support each other’s claims. So, for me having first hand experience at his particular practice, I have to say that I should be dead, according to the FDA! I do agree that people put things in their bodies without finding out what they are. But that does not apply to just vitamins, herbs and other natural remedies. I think the general public should be more aware of what they consume, but I still believe there is a place for both natural and pharmaceutical remedies. I'd be encouraging people to give up soft drinks and hydrogenated oils before I would ever worry about natural remedies. Read the labels of the food in your kitchen and notice the chemicals packed into them. It seems to me, so much focus is placed on the taboo of natural and wholistic care when our concerns should be focused more on that 32 ounce soda you're drinking [;)] I guess I'm just more a proponent of "Do it but look into it" as opposed to "Don't do it at all." But I'd much rather have my food untampered with. Eat the right foods, avoid junk other than in moderation, and we don't need to be adding hormones, antibiotics, bacteria and other crap to our intake. My two cents. :)

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 8:41:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie It has been my understanding that vitamins and herbs do not undergo the intense case studies like prescription drugs do, because they do not get funding from the FDA for clinical trials like the pharmaceutical companies do. Without grants for clinical trials, supplement manufacturers are forced to seek funding elsewhere, and often times can not. The FDA does not fund clinical trials, which are enormously expensive. The FDA sets standards for, consults on, and evaluates the results of clinical trials of companies seeking approval for introducing new drugs into the marketplace. Even prior to clinical trials, legitimate drug companies carry out years of testing on a whole hierarchy of models, from test tubes up to animals, before they may enter clinical trials. Natural remedies normally don't get that either. The FDA also regulates production, to ensure purity and quality, of approved substances. "Natural remedies" have no such QC verification. quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie The FDA can not impose regulations on supplements, because there haven't been enough studies conducted to prove or disprove many of the theories about supplements. Can't regulate without studies, can't conduct the studies without funding. These things are simply not classified as medicines. If they were, they would need to have rigorous studies supporting their mechanism, pharmacokinetics, and pharmacodynamics, efficacy and safety, and not having funding would be no excuse for evading the law. The FDA also doesn't require clinical trials on cheese for example. There is zero proof of either safety or efficacy required on so-called "dietary supplements". Personally, I am baffled that people will turn to quackery such as homeopathic medicine and supplements. If someone wants to state that medicine doesn't have the cure for everything, not every doctor is of the highest caliber - I can agree. It's also true that many medicines have been found among the remedies of traditional healers. *But,* there is still just a gross difference between conventional medicine and pharmaceuticals and the alternatives. One has a scientific basis and the other does not. One has a rigorous process of independently reviewed testing, and the other does not. Those two distinctions are not minor details. Homepathic medicine, for example, which has many customers, is in direct contradiction of even the most basic scientific principles. I have seen some claims made by dietary supplement pushers. You can even see these quacks on TV with infomercials. Their hook usually involves something like "Doctors and pharmaceuticals companies want your money - they don't you to know the real truth that we're about to tell you... we have the secret to...". For people who love conspiracy theory, it's a great line, but the only trouble is, guess what - these people also want your money! That's why they paid for the infomercial, for goodness sake. [8\|] And they are virtually unconstrained by either science or the law - sounds like a great deal? For my own health and that of my family, I do not experiment with any health practices that have no scientific basis, only advertising claims - they are virtually the definition of quackery. I have no issue with taking medicines that originate from natural sources, but only ones that are well understood, and verified to be safe and effective.

juliaoceania -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:06:56 AM)
No company is going to invest in clinical trials for herbs they cannot patent Edited to add that they never release the numbers of people harmed by pharmecutical drugs. Drug interactions, allergies, and side effects kill and cause life altering harm to many many more people than I could even take a wild guess. My mom was just negatively affected by a drug to stop her bones from losing density, she swelled, she lost her voice, and was extremely sore. My sister had an allergic reaction to sulfa that almost killed her, I have a life threatening allergy to penicillin. I am sure if people sit and think about it they can think of examples of the harm these drugs can cause. I know of one person that had a heart attack due to Vioxx I am not saying I will never take them, but most of the time the cure is worse than the disease in my mind.

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