RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm!

RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (Full Version)

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Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 7:13:18 PM)
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Sinergy -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 8:38:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut The main problem with antibiotics is that they are commonly used when there is not even a bacterial infection, due to a combination of patient pressure and physician expediancy. This is not entirely true. The human immune system can program itself to fight either virii or bacteria, but not both at the same time. In fact, when the immune system is fighting a virus, the bacterial defenses are lowered. The main contradiction to this occurs during women who are pregnant, who have heightened immunity to both. Go figure. So antibiotics are often prescribed to aid the body (fighting a virus) to not pick up an opportunistic bacterial infection when it is not primed to fight said bacterial infection. Having said that, I seldom take antibiotics unless a doctor can conclusively prove to me that I have a bacterial infection. There are recent studies (Discover, Scientific American cited these last year) which indicated that widespread use of antibiotics kills off beneficial bacterial flora, which can have deleterious effects on a person's health. As far as antibacterial soap is concerned, you people may know that in microbiology class, one of the assignments is to find the living bacteria which LIVE in these antibacterial soaps. Wash your hands, but more importantly, dont touch your eyes, nose, and mouth, and you will most likely not get sick. Just me, etc. Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 8:42:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut The patient pull for antibiotics is very powerful. Although people invariably blame doctors when they talk about excessive use of medications, it is a fact that the majority of people are not happy when they visit the doctor unless they come home with at least one prescription, and they pressure their doctors for those medications. This also is not entirely true. The widespread growth of antibiotic resistant infections is due in large part to the lay use of antibiotics for farm animals, where the medicines are used as a prophylactic and not used under medical supervision. Just me, etc. Sinergy

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 8:52:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut The main problem with antibiotics is that they are commonly used when there is not even a bacterial infection, due to a combination of patient pressure and physician expediancy. This is not entirely true. The human immune system can program itself to fight either virii or bacteria, but not both at the same time. In fact, when the immune system is fighting a virus, the bacterial defenses are lowered. The main contradiction to this occurs during women who are pregnant, who have heightened immunity to both. Go figure. So antibiotics are often prescribed to aid the body (fighting a virus) to not pick up an opportunistic bacterial infection when it is not primed to fight said bacterial infection. Having said that, I seldom take antibiotics unless a doctor can conclusively prove to me that I have a bacterial infection. There are recent studies (Discover, Scientific American cited these last year) which indicated that widespread use of antibiotics kills off beneficial bacterial flora, which can have deleterious effects on a person's health. As far as antibacterial soap is concerned, you people may know that in microbiology class, one of the assignments is to find the living bacteria which LIVE in these antibacterial soaps. Wash your hands, but more importantly, dont touch your eyes, nose, and mouth, and you will most likely not get sick. Just me, etc. Sinergy So, I get your statement that says "This is not entirely true"... but how is what follows that actually a refutation of what I said?

Sinergy -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 8:53:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Whether you believe it or not, all large pharmaceutical companies have, and have had natural products drug discovery efforts for many decades. Some smaller drug companies have natural products as their sole strategy. Look here for example at a Gordon Research Conference posting on Natural Products Chemistry: The Food and Drug Adminstration has as it's charter to prevent harmful food or drugs from entering the marketplace. It does this quite well. Anybody wishing to put a new drug or food on the market has to jump through a vast number of extremely expensive hoops to get it approved. The only entity on the planet which can actually get something approved are large scale corporations where the ethics of healing the afflicted comes secondary to profit motive. Just me, etc. Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:01:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Unlike all three of you guys, I am a scientist. So, while anyone with a keyboard can denounce science... Anybody with a keyboard can also pretend they are a scientist. Which specific scientific journals were you published in, and who were the authors, so that I can review your work as well as the peer review of said work? Sinergy

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:01:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut The patient pull for antibiotics is very powerful. Although people invariably blame doctors when they talk about excessive use of medications, it is a fact that the majority of people are not happy when they visit the doctor unless they come home with at least one prescription, and they pressure their doctors for those medications. This also is not entirely true. The widespread growth of antibiotic resistant infections is due in large part to the lay use of antibiotics for farm animals, where the medicines are used as a prophylactic and not used under medical supervision. Just me, etc. Sinergy I know that some people believe that - but it was certainly not the principal mechanism as discussed when I took microbiology. As you must know, many bacteria that can infect animals cannot infect humans. In theory, I can think of two routes through which the resistance could be transferred from animals to humans - mutation of the resistant bacterium so that it can infect humans, or exchange of bacterial genes between species or subspecies through plasmids... so yes, in principle, that is also a caustive mechanism for conferring resistance. Of course, we already know that resistant bacteria are bred in humans through indiscriminant use of antibotics there. Hospitals for example, are notoriously unhealthy because they are a selection and breeding ground for strains of bacteria with multiple antibiotic resistance. Even Vancomycin, the antibiotic of last resort, has proven ineffective against many hospital-acquired staphylococcus infections.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:03:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Unlike all three of you guys, I am a scientist. So, while anyone with a keyboard can denounce science... Anybody with a keyboard can also pretend they are a scientist. Which specific scientific journals were you published in, and who were the authors, so that I can review your work as well as the peer review of said work? Sinergy With all the crackpots here, I have no desire to give literature reference to myself, and I couldn't less what you think.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:05:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut Whether you believe it or not, all large pharmaceutical companies have, and have had natural products drug discovery efforts for many decades. Some smaller drug companies have natural products as their sole strategy. Look here for example at a Gordon Research Conference posting on Natural Products Chemistry: The Food and Drug Adminstration has as it's charter to prevent harmful food or drugs from entering the marketplace. It does this quite well. Anybody wishing to put a new drug or food on the market has to jump through a vast number of extremely expensive hoops to get it approved. The only entity on the planet which can actually get something approved are large scale corporations where the ethics of healing the afflicted comes secondary to profit motive. Just me, etc. Sinergy And your point is?

Sinergy -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:06:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut With all the crackpots here, I have no desire to give literature reference to myself, and I couldn't less what you think. I find the most amusing crackpots are the ones who pretend to be scientists. Sinergy

herwhim -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:08:18 PM)
quote: Herbs usually do not have side effects, whereas many artificial medicines do. Once you start taking blood thinners for example the amount of pills you need to take avalanches. This is incorrect, and is a dangerous myth. Pharmacologically active herbs are more likely to have side effects (the active ingredient faces a similar likelihood of side effects as do manufactured medicines, while herbs often contain other substances). Luckily, many supposed natural remedies have no effect whatsoever -- neither curative nor side effects, so those are safer, but there's also no point in taking them. And some of these remedies have no non-placebo therapeutic benefit but do have side effects. Drugs have dangerous side effects, and that should be considered carefully before taking them. But untested remedies are hardly the solution. The greatest advancement in the history of medicine was the randomized double-blinded placebo-controlled trial. quote: I have observed that anywhere a physician is present people who are ill also will occur. This implies a causal relationship... From my point of view - and bad experiences - this would be a healthier world if all physicians took their own medications and died from it. I would rather die than be treated by a physician - except for an appendicitis or prostate operation, or other minor treatment; I do not expect any. I am sorry your experience has been so bad. I find it unfortunate that leads you to spread ignorant and unfounded ideas in a public forum, potentially endanger the health of gullible readers. I hope that those reading your comments will figure out by the point where you wish all physicians dead that you aren't to be taken seriously. I fear some will listen anyway. I hope that you find better health and more sense. Be well.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:08:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut With all the crackpots here, I have no desire to give literature reference to myself, and I couldn't less what you think. I find the most amusing crackpots are the ones who pretend to be scientists. Sinergy Do your worst, Sinergy... if you understand what you pretend to, you will readily recognize what I say as the truth. Of course, you might just go on anyway, though, yes?

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 9:22:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut The patient pull for antibiotics is very powerful. Although people invariably blame doctors when they talk about excessive use of medications, it is a fact that the majority of people are not happy when they visit the doctor unless they come home with at least one prescription, and they pressure their doctors for those medications. This also is not entirely true. The widespread growth of antibiotic resistant infections is due in large part to the lay use of antibiotics for farm animals, where the medicines are used as a prophylactic and not used under medical supervision. Just me, etc. Sinergy I know that some people believe that - but it was certainly not the principal mechanism as discussed when I took microbiology. As you must know, many bacteria that can infect animals cannot infect humans. In theory, I can think of two routes through which the resistance could be transferred from animals to humans - mutation of the resistant bacterium so that it can infect humans, or exchange of bacterial genes between species or subspecies through plasmids... so yes, in principle, that is also a caustive mechanism for conferring resistance. Of course, we already know that resistant bacteria are bred in humans through indiscriminant use of antibotics there. Hospitals for example, are notoriously unhealthy because they are a selection and breeding ground for strains of bacteria with multiple antibiotic resistance. Even Vancomycin, the antibiotic of last resort, has proven ineffective against many hospital-acquired staphylococcus infections. So here is a reference to an article in CDC Emerging Infectious Diseases - http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no2/weinstein.htm The CDC knows a little bit about infections. Here is the abstract from the article: quote: Antimicrobial-drug resistance in hospitals is driven by failures of hospital hygiene, selective pressures created by overuse of antibiotics, and mobile genetic elements that can encode bacterial resistance mechanisms. Attention to hand hygiene is constrained by the time it takes to wash hands and by the adverse effects of repeated handwashing on the skin. Alcohol-based hand rubs can overcome the time problem and actually improve skin condition. Universal gloving could close gaps left by incomplete adherence to hand hygiene. Various interventions have been described to improve antibiotic use. The most effective have been programs restricting use of antibiotics and computer-based order forms for health providers.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/22/2006 11:57:10 PM)
Wow. I left this morning what seemed to be an interesting and healthy discussion (no pun intended). I returned from an extremely painful day to see this rudeness. So I won't bother to add what I was going to. Seems like Daddy4Udderslut did a pretty good job of shutting down the discussion anyway. Thankfully my doctors and nutritionists are a bit more kind and generous when addressing my questions, comments and concerns.

Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/23/2006 6:57:18 AM)
I'll tell you what, if you or, considering julia's model of interacting principally, really - approach your doctors or nutritionists, and instead of asking any questions or listening to them, just put forth your own theories about science, argue with them ad infinitum when they try to straighten things out, insist that you know everything... Then you insult them, the FDA, medical science and the drug companies, tell them it's all just a corrupt racket and you'd never trust a thing they say anyway, tell them that you're much safer not listening to them, that they hurt many more people than they ever help... I am going to guess the discussion isn't going to go real well. Insults, ugly bias, and know-it-all attitude are just a very poor model for a 'discussion'.

juliaoceania -> RE: Coming soon - new viruses in your bologna, and bacteria in your toothpaste - Mmmmmm! (8/23/2006 8:04:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Thankfully my doctors and nutritionists are a bit more kind and generous when addressing my questions, comments and concerns. Mine too...smiles, I think that comes with having to deal with laypeople that do not know-it-all, You have to treat people with respect if you are going to be any good at that job because you are treating the whole person. The only time a doc was rude to me was when I was much much younger and I asked why she wanted to put my son on steriods to dry up congestion, being completely unknowledgeable I thought she meant the type of steroids used by weight lifters and I was alarmed. She looked at me with this snide expression and said "Give it to him or don't, Im not going to explain this to you" I got a new doctor that DID explain that this was a completely different sort of steroid. Geesh, its your kid, you are supposed to ask questions, people with God complexes about their "knowledge" are very insecure people in my mind.

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