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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 11:36:30 AM   
kommune


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i appreciate the intention of susan's original post - to examine if we apply the same attitudes toward both genders, but something about the context disturbs me.

my disclaimer
i am not a one-true-wayer, and i won't tell another person how they should live their lives. what follows is my personal belief, and i appreciate that not everyone believe as i do

the proper attitude of a sub is one of service. i don't think anyone will dispute that.

the proper attitude of a dom is ALSO service - and here i find many men and women who disagree, in my converations and in some of the mailing lists i am involved in.

a dom can be hard, and mean, and positively evil sometimes as the scene requires - but the dom should also serve, not sometimes but constantly. caring for my sub's physical, emotional and mental wellbeing is my responsibility, and i take my service seriously. why shouldn't i? do i not expect that same level of commitment to serving my needs and desires?

it would be highly delusional to believe oneself so divinely inspired that he or she is born to rule regardless of merit. it might be necessary in some situations to PRETEND like this is the case, but i don't think it should ever be fact.

i believe in mutual consent - and even in a 24/7 lifestyle - bdsm is more like an elaborate game than it is a way of life. basically, there is a reality that we return to. and if we don't, then perhaps that is telling of a more complex delusion.

what is being discussed is that dirty, and somewhat shady, concept of financial slavery. i suppose the appeal to the sub is in service (i do this because i serve him/her), in humiliation (he or she only wants me for my money), or even an obtuse form of 24/7 power exchange (service at home, and at the office).

but where, in this exchange, does the dominant's responsibility lie? the lines are blurred, and there is a strong potential in this case for things to go wrong.

one of my earliest brushes with BDSM "philosophy" has to be shevette's (now defunct) evangelistic website.

in an article she penned, she illustrates a situation i will attempt to retell.

as a submissive, she believed it her responsibility, to her master, to take out the trash. and while her master believes that housekeeping was part of her responsibility, taking out the trash was one of those "heavy lifting" jobs that posed a physical danger to his sub. so he instructed her to inform him when the trash needed taking out, and he would do it.

if he was unavailable or preoccupied, she'd take out the trash. or he would send her to a corner (i'm making up the exact details here. my memory is sketchy) until he could find the time to do the chore himself.

this stuck in my mind as a marvellous example of just how collaborative power exchange as a lifestyle can be. both dom and sub acting in an attitude of service - both assuming ALL responsibility, so when it comes down to actually executing their responsibilities, both find themselves needing to do considerably less than they initially intended to.

(and here i hope i have not becomes too vague)

it's utopian, but when it works, it works extremely well. an electorate surrenders their collective power to an elected government, which then uses that power to serve its electorate, just like a sub surrenders power to a dominant, confident that the dominant acts in the best interest of the sub. i don't believe there is a more powerful dynamic than that.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 11:43:48 AM   
t3nth0usandv0lts


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-shrugs- My question was answered, I just figured a thank you was in order... did I do something wrong?

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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 11:54:38 AM   
Leonardo


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Part of the culture of the mountain people of Laos (Hmong people) is just that... the Dom has several wives. The wives work and turn over their checks as tribute to their Dom. The Dom may be the husband, or the grandfather. Women in that society have value only as property, and sometimes, a water buffalo may be more valuable than women. Women are traded off as property.

In the US, the dream of many women is the complete opposite... have the male work while she sits pretty, has affairs with Jose the gardner,  Biff the tennis or golf teacher, or with a box of bon bons and the afternoon TV line-up of soaps, oprah, and tv courtrooms.

Personally, I don't subscribe to either of those philosophies, but there are those, as well as many in-between from one end of the spectrum to the other. I get up every morning and work. My bride gets up every morning and works. If we ever find anyone worthy of moving in with us, that person will work, as well. My bride is the keeper of the books for My House. I let her make the deposits into the House account and she keeps the checks, managing the books. She is better at bookkeeping than I am, so that is her top priority chore. If we added another person or a multitude of persons, they, too would be required to turn over their checks to my bride and she would maintain the books for the House. If it became too cumbersome for her, then she would have someone in the House appointed to assist her in keeping the books. In My House, all major decisions are finalized by me. However, this does not mean that I do not discuss matters and have input. But in the end, the major decisions are deferred to me.

That's just our way here. Others have theirs. The Hmong have their strict patriarchal culture and cucky's have their ways of doing things.

To each his/her own as long as that is in accord with the ultimate desires of all the parties involved.

Leonardo

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 12:01:11 PM   
popeye1250


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Well, imho I think a sub/slave should have their own finances, investments, savings etc.
It just seems to work out better that way.
I take on a sub to eventually become my slave/ property not to bilk her out of her life savings.

(in reply to Leonardo)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 12:21:59 PM   
Bearlee


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seeeeeeeee... yet another reason I like Popeye!

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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 12:49:50 PM   
LeatherBentOne


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I posted this on a previous thread:

Now, my situation is very different from yours and most that post here.  My sub will be working full-time and in addition, is a golf instructor from April thru October, teaching up tp 50-60 students during the season.  On the other hand, Im permanently disabled but am Founder and Exec. Director of a non-profit on a part-time basis, mostly from home.  Therefore, I clean, cook and do laundry by choice as I wish to share these responsibilities with my submissive when Im physically able to do so. In fact, the bulk of these chores fall into my lap during golf season and should there be a time when Im not able, Ill hire a weekly housekeeper to clean and do laundry.

I could very easily place all these responsibilities on my sub if I wished to, but Id like to have time to enjoy her when she's not dead tired or dead to the world.  Plus, I dont feel as if Im responsible in looking out for her physical/emotional needs if I place everything on her shoulders.  Besides that, neither one of us is getting any younger.   Im grateful for everything that she does to make my life easier and I appreciate her time and effort in doing so.  Maybe some would call me a whimpy Domme ~ hardly.  Strength can be found in many that others consider weakness.

My question:  What if your Dom was disabled???

LeatherBentOne

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 1:09:39 PM   
juliaoceania


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fast reply,

This is something I have discussed to some degree with my Dom BEFORE we move in together, if we take that step we want to make sure that one is not on a different page.

I expect to work, doing whatever I am capable of to generate income. I am educated, there is no reason for me to sit back and not use it. I envision myself working my way through graduate school, and  hopefully on a fellowship so I can take advantage of work in my field. I am doing what I am doing as a calling. It is not a job, it is my vocation. He finds the aspect of dominating a PhD candidate and an eventual PhD to be a turn on, and feels it reflects well on him, so in a way I could say this serves him. I think that there are many assets one brings to a relationship besides economic and domestic ones. The asset of being able to have the kind of conversations he enjoys is an asset, one I put years of my life into in order to be so conversant on academic discourse, one I went into debt financially for, and yes, at this point it is my biggest economic asset in finding work for myself, and in a relationship.

I enjoy domestic service, this is not connected to what I offer him  in his mind because he could hire a maid if we were both working. It isn't an issue. He cannot hire someone to be a companion that cares deeply for him quite so easily.

I want to work, I would not support a man economically, nor do I expect them to do so for me. On a very real level money equates power, and I am mindful of this... the person with the money has the power. If I stayed home and did not work that would be to me a power exchange, because i would be giving up power in the world for him... this is how I see it. Merc is right, if I am out in the workforce I have another master than him, and if I give up making my own income and putting his economic endeavors above mine I am giving him complete power over me in a way that is not possible if I did work. I would feel as though I was in control if I supported him, and I would not like that. If i was the one with more personal power in the world to generate the income, and he did nothing, that would upset the balance for me. I am not saying if he is laid off or injured I would feel the same way, because I wouldn't, but if he ordered me to support him so he could sit on his lazy ass, well I would not respect him.



On edit, susan, you have mail...smiles


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/22/2006 1:10:00 PM >


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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 2:07:33 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I know there exist Dominants that do feel the slave or submissive should be the one providing the income, and also there exist Dominants that feel this is almost solely "their" domain (breadwinner).

So - maybe people can expound on the reasons they feel the way they do about this?



The individual with that mentality would rapidly walk past me. I am beholden to one person and that is the one I gave life to. She depends upon me for support and sustenance. If the dominant wishes to spend his days resting quietly, pondering the meaning of life, or pursuing other activities he should make certain he can adequately support his lifestyle before doing so. Of course physical impairments and unexpected events can and will occur. But I have no desire to be anyone's sugar momma, regardless what title is bestowed upon me.

I have been in situations where an individual has offered to be the sole breadwinner. In all instances I have declined because I didn't wish to have the noose around my neck that was sure to come. There's a wonderful sense of freedom that one has when the money you spend is what you've earned. Allowing another to dictate these practices or dole out a small allowance would never suit my needs. We should all approach our relationships with something of merit that is brought to the love table. In my situation this extends beyond pretty words, remarkable sex, and a nifty toy collection.

I prefer to maintain an element of balance in my relations and sincerely believe there is an inherent danger when the scales tip too sharply in either direction. While it is easy to expound about the merits of such and the benefits that staying home provides. It is very hard for me to forget the price many have paid by doing so through belief in a happy ending that fell noticeably short.

porcelaine

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(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 2:16:34 PM   
heartfeltsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: t3nth0usandv0lts

Please forgive my ignorance this once... but what is a sprong?


As Susan said, it is in place of a forbidden word based on the TOS (Terms of Service). i had seen it used by a couple of other posters and i liked it better than unmentionables. And apparently i should have typed sprog not sprong.

*Editted because i can't seem to type tonight

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 8/22/2006 2:20:13 PM >

(in reply to t3nth0usandv0lts)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 2:17:30 PM   
enigmabrat


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Sorry but there is no effen way Im working all day and then comeing home and doing all the chores as the other thread had sugested fuck beeing Domanent doesnt make you royaltie if your gunna be a stay at home you do the house work if not you work o9tu of the home everyone needs to pull waight in the relationship

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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 2:27:05 PM   
liljoy


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Sadly this was my last relationship. It wasn't planned that way but when he lost his job 4 months after we moved in together he never looked for another one. i had trouble dealing with it lots of times. we'd talk about it and he would rationalize it until i accepted it until the next time i had trouble.
Lots of excuses and rationalizations and lots of my beating myself up for not being a good enough submissive to accept his rationalzations and for growing to resent him. That's not why the relationship ended but it sure didn't help
lil_joy

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 2:28:36 PM   
thetammyjo


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I'm thinking about this in terms of historical slavery and how that could be used to justify the owner/dom staying home while the slave(s)/sub(s) work.

If one actually had a number of subs or slaves then the owner/dom's work could be to organize that household. Thus the work for income on the part of the slaves is their work, and the owner's is to organize then and use said income for the benefit of everyone. Usually this was done more by the lady of the house while the man of the house did things of a political or social nature in public.

But the owner of a farm may not do the physical labor only the organizing and managing of it thus living off of the income created via slave labor.

I could imagine a similar situation today (regardless of the gender or sex of the parties). I think it would work best when the dom first had the business set up and then used the sub/slave labor in it -- in a way then it is still work for the dom, just not what we might thing of as work outside the home.

Random thoughts.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 8/22/2006 2:31:24 PM >


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(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 4:33:32 PM   
Tamerofwild1s


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I personally perfer to be the "breadwinner" ... it's just one of those old fashioned values I have ..... I would prefer if it is condusive that my girl stay home and care for the house ..

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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 4:47:23 PM   
MrDiscipline44


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You know, i can see your point, Tammy and see the validity in it as well. But because I see so many that are gender biased I see that we would find more Fmm houses and it would be rare to see the Mff house that would work. But you and MasterFireMaam do have some valid ideas.

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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 5:00:11 PM   
shadevarr


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In an ideal situation under my roof, the sub would work part time during the same hours I am at work but still have enough time to unwind before I got home so she could help me unwind while I cooked dinner. I do expect them to at least cover their own expenses and the only way you will ever catch me willingly out of work is if, praise the gods, I win the lotto.  As far as some Doms not working, that is their cup of tea and if it works don't mess with it. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 5:47:15 PM   
ScooterTrash


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I'm a bit late jumping in on this one, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. NO, I would never be satisfied with being the one staying home. I am the breadwinner and I am certain it is partially a Dominant thing, but I don't see any point in anyone else in my household having to earn income when I can support the household quite fine by myself. To be quite honest, I am opposed to anyone else having to bring in income, if that was the case, I would feel I was failing somewhere.  

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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 6:00:34 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

You know, i can see your point, Tammy and see the validity in it as well. But because I see so many that are gender biased I see that we would find more Fmm houses and it would be rare to see the Mff house that would work. But you and MasterFireMaam do have some valid ideas.


I was just tossing out historical reasons that might make it in our time.

I, personally, would be working whether it was teaching or focusing on my writing. I mean, it isn't relaxing any more if its all the time, right? I have to schedule my relaxation cause my mind is always cranking away so the not-do-anything just wouldn't work for me. I don't honestly think it works for anyone for too long a time and sooner or later they'd find things to do.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/22/2006 9:22:27 PM   
NastyDaddy


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All four of these "A ______ should not have to work" threads all seek opinion, rhyme, reason or rationale... and justification for same... of same.

It takes a real ______ to put food on the table. None of these threads say "A _______ should not have to put food on the table".

So what do you want.... food on the table, or to witness slavery that suits your particular judgement, liking or determination of effort expended?

As a side note, is this perhaps actually establishing a justiftication for a predictable daily absence, a break from the other(s)?

Among all the reason/rhyme we certainly are graced with variety... gold diggers, kept women, gigolos, pimps and others who value human lives as commodities as well as futures.... financial predator types if you will... often called "managers".

A good majority of other commentary regarding lifestyle relationship pivot points and "roadmaps to success", "boxed relationships", "instant BDSM" and other "ways to do it right" are bottom-lined in smiliar conclusion... whatever works for the participants of a relationship is in fact the true measure of their success.

The best answer underneath all the flotsam is simply... what do you want to hedge your bet on? Do you want to base your financial future and standing on an assumption of opinion... stay home and enjoy the soaps... expect that all will be hunky-dory until some magical point in the future.... shit happens..... then what?

If you are capable of contributing to the relationship... emotionally, physically, and so many other ways... why does the subject of work warrant it's own status as a hard or soft limit, or a measure of a individual's quality assessment?

The first two threads (FemDom, MaleDom) seem to be workophobic and diametrically opposed leisurephobic in opinion.

The latter two threads (People, Pets) although largely tongue-in-cheek will probably garner the more factual based responses.

The real privileged ones are walking on water all around us... drinking new wine from the same old bottle.



(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/23/2006 6:06:48 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

I know I am lucky and I am grateful they care so much; it is this kind of stuff that makes me comfortable with staying home.



You are treasure to them  and not just a responsibility  and definitely not a burden to them.  In other words... all of you appreciate each other for what you all contribute to your relationship together. 

I wish more relationships existed like you three.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Male Doms should not have to work for a living. Dis... - 8/23/2006 6:11:27 AM   
KnightofMists


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I work out of the house..... I get some money for my efforts

alandra works in the house.... I get a comfortable home environment for her efforts.

kyra works out of the house... I get to improve the comforts of my life for her efforts.


It's all good.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 80
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