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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 1:07:22 PM

mnottertail

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quote:

I have never heard the President say that God tells him to kill innocent people. Maybe I missed that speech?

Therefore; pray you not as the Pharisees do, in public............... the guy is a christian.

Ron

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 1:11:20 PM

babygirl005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

I have never heard the President say that God tells him to kill innocent people. Maybe I missed that speech?

Therefore; pray you not as the Pharisees do, in public............... the guy is a christian.

Ron

So you are saying that Christians want to kill innocent people? Amazing.
Estring

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 1:18:43 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernSwitch11
Im not really going to comment on it further except to say make your own mind up on it.

I think you misunderstood me maybe...

See the post here:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=545787

I just think "Loose Change" gets in the way of more serious investigation into the matter. BTW, I have seen it - twice in fact. It overreaches and makes other documentaries and researchers look bad by association.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 1:20:50 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: babygirl005
So you are saying that Christians want to kill innocent people? Amazing.

Some Christians are clearly as mad as hatters. If that fact has escaped your attention until then that is amazing.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 1:22:33 PM

NorthernSwitch11

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Despite all these experts, presidents, ex presidents and my own prime minister nobody has actually found a single WMD in Iraq as far as i have heard on all media i have access to. Sure regardless the guy needed taken out and even if i knew it all to be one giant lie i would still support his removal but dont forget my own country and the US also sold weapons in addition to just about every other in Europe to countries who were known to be so called bad apples
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0525-04.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/arms/
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22649-1664749,00.html
yeah they are just web links and as always you cant trust everything posted on the net but who honestly has not heard of their own country mine included being accused by its own people of selling weapons to just about everybody including its so called enemy's.
Im not dissagreeing as such with anyone but there are alot of people getting flamed here for voicing their opinions which ever way those views swing. I for one read everyones comments and sometimes find myself rethinking what i believe but even if i dont agree im not going to attack their views after all this is a democracy isn't it

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 1:35:12 PM

Dauric

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Estring: I reference Frontline's "Rumsfeld's War" and "The Dark Side". all the intel that said Saddam had nukes or chem/biological weapons, along with the mobile labs etc. etc. etc. all of that was always couched in qualifiers. The recommendations from the CIA, and NSA were always that they needed more data to be certain enough to act. George Tennet was replaced in large part because he stressed the tenative and in many cases unreliable nature of the sources for that intelligence.

$0.02,

Dauric.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 1:36:25 PM

NorthernSwitch11

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in all honesty i did, i found your use of language a bit confusing, i was not the best student of english, my appollogies

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 2:13:38 PM

philosophy

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"So you are saying that Christians want to kill innocent people? Amazing.
Estring"

...if you're amazed by that you maybe want to get out more and read some history books. As far as i can remember IRA and ETNA are both christian terrorist organisations.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 3:41:02 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

General response ...

Historically, early occupations by strong nations, has always been difficult. It's probably too early to know the eventual outcome. It may turn out a complete mess, and it may not ... it may end up like Roman Dacia, or may end up like Roman Palestine.

The Romans committed genocide in Dacia, it was never planned as an occupation. Dacia had gold and Rome wanted it so fuck Dacia and its people and Rome banished the Jews from Palestine, I guess the Jews got lucky that time but it was hardly a great choice. So one of these scenarios is what Iraq could end up as?

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 3:52:58 PM

LTRsubNW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

We invaded Iraq because 9/11 alerted to the reality that Islamic
terrorists would attack us in the most horrific way possible if
given the chance. And we didn't trust Saddam Hussein, not
to provide terrorists with WMD. The time to stop an enemy
from acquiring weapons WMD is before they get them.
Saddam was only cooperating with us when we had all
our forces poised on his border. We couldn't do this
indefinitely.

First of all, your sentences don't complete your thoughts. I'll assume you had some.

Second of all, an assumption on our part (Bush's) of someone's impropriety is by no means an appropriate reason to bomb a country.

Thirdly, if you want a good reason to blow up a country, try reading "Princes of Darkness", a recent book by a Rand Institute fellow who very clearly explains why not only Saudi Arabia is our real enemy, but in fact, aside from Iran and Syria (who by the way, gets their money from Iran AND Russia) who are funding the bulk of the vitriol in the Muslim fanatical world, it's fairly clear the main source of weapons funding is coming from one general source.

When in doubt, follow the money.

Please don't misread what I wrote to suggest that all Muslims, or for that matter, even the smallest portion of Muslims are the problem, only that funding is coming from documented sources, they are largely Muslim, and they are largely Saudis and Saudi nationals...using your (and my) oil money shipped overseas.

They were funding it to the tune of billions when oil was at 20 dollars a barrel. At 70 dollars a barrel, they're funding it with all the financial wherewithall as if now tens of billions were nothing more than a handfull of M&M's.

We never had a good reason to invade Iraq.

Was Saddam a bad guy?

No doubt about it.

Did he look the other way while his neighbors did their dirty work to harm us and others?

Count on it.

Was he our biggest problem or enemy?

He wasn't even our smallest.

Now his country, and multiple others that have long waited for a highly visible reason to validate their outdated mantra, thanks to our efforts, have one on the front page of every world newspaper, and they've become our biggest problem, for decades to come.

And we're funding it.

Would Iraq have grown into a problem requiring our eventual military efforts? I'm not smart enough to know that and I certainly don't have a crystal ball.

But as to your point...you aren't even remotely close to the truth.

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 8/23/2006 4:20:42 PM >

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 4:54:03 PM

WhipTheHip

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom
9/11 only clued in the clueless

quote:

Saddam was only cooperating with us when we had all our forces poised on his border. We couldn't do this
indefinitely.

Uh, if we can occupy the place forever at a massive economic, military, and human cost, then we could afford to sit "poised" on the border at a FAR cheaper economic, military, and human cost. Doing so would also have kept tens of thousands of American troops from being killed or crippled, our equipment would not be worn out, our military would still be ready to fight, and we would not have spent hundreds of billions of dollars to install an Iranian government at the head of Iraq.

You are right. We can't occupy the place forever. What we should have done is let the Iraqis fight it out among themselves and supported those who were least antagnostic towards us.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 4:55:36 PM

WyrdRich

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"So you are saying that Christians want to kill innocent people? Amazing.
Estring"

...if you're amazed by that you maybe want to get out more and read some history books. As far as i can remember IRA and ETNA are both christian terrorist organisations.

So, if this is the standard, are you going to be all supportive of the suggestion that every Muslim on the planet is an evil terrorist? Or do you have a different set of standards for them?

Before you get anywhere, you have to get past hypocrisy.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 4:58:57 PM

WhipTheHip

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dauric
Estring: I reference Frontline's "Rumsfeld's War" and "The Dark Side". all the intel that said Saddam had nukes or chem/biological weapons, along with the mobile labs etc. etc. etc. all of that was always couched in qualifiers. The recommendations from the CIA, and NSA were always that they needed more data to be certain enough to act. George Tennet was replaced in large part because he stressed the tenative and in many cases unreliable nature of the sources for that intelligence.
$0.02,
Dauric.

The time to stop an enemy is before they get WMD, not after.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 5:33:46 PM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The Romans committed genocide in Dacia, it was never planned as an occupation. Dacia had gold and Rome wanted it so fuck Dacia and its people and Rome banished the Jews from Palestine, I guess the Jews got lucky that time but it was hardly a great choice. So one of these scenarios is what Iraq could end up as?

An interesting interpretation of events, perhaps.

Dacia began invading the Roman province of Moesia right around 85AD. The only thing that kept them from success, was war against the Germanic Marcomanni. Dacia actually sued for peace with Rome. Right around 100AD, Trajan sent a large invasion/occupation army to Dacia, which won victory at Tarae in 101AD. Rome actually occupied Dacia until 129AD, when the territiory was divided into two provinces by Hadrian, Trajan's successor. During that time, Dacia was in a state of nearly constant rebellion. Unable to subdue Dacia, or leave a powerful enemy in place, Rome finally destroyed her.

After Flavius Silva's victory at Masada in 72AD, the Emperor Titus rebuilt the city of Jerusalem, and peace was maintained in the region for quite some time afterwards ... well into the Byzantine period in fact. Josephus makes no mention of the banishment of Jews from Palestine. Many of the rebels left after Masada (by coincidence, most left to Dacia), but Josephus makes no mention of further troubles after the Jewish Wars. Perhaps you have another source, other than the most widely accepted period writer. The lavantine area stayed relatively peaceful and loyal to the Empire, well into the Byzantine period. They even fought with both Belisarius and Heraclius, against successive Sassanid dynasts.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 8/23/2006 5:35:55 PM >

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/23/2006 5:34:08 PM

CrappyDom

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Whip,

If you are so concerned with WMD, why not invade Pakistan? I mean they are now backing the Taliban and were selling nuclear weapons secrets to anyone with money. Or what about North Korea who has backed and trained everyone including the various 1960s and 70 euro terror groups?

Iraq was a bit player in the terror game and was a bullwark against Iran and was the only big ME country not full of religious nutcases.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 12:56:49 AM

meatcleaver

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France and Germany didn't seriously believe Saddam had WMD, they were rather diplomatic not wanting to call Bush a liar or stupid. However, Chirac did let his diplomatic mask slip once and called Blair a fantasist for beliving their were WMD in Iraq. Both countries knew WMD were an excuse for an invasion even if they didn't know the real reason. I doubt Blair knows the real reason for the invasion which really shows up how dumb he is even though he can move his lips in sync.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 1:25:29 AM

meatcleaver

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Your version of history was written by Romans which is normally the case because they won and wrote history through Romancentric eyes or lets be honest, those great civilizers blatantly liked to justify their crimes (genocide). Don't we all? (bit of irony there). There is a lot of Archeology going on in Romania(Dacia) and it is revealing that the Dacians were not the savages the Romans portray. However, they had gold and Trajan needed gold because Rome was broke.

There were mass killings of Jews, many sold into slavery and fled under the rule of Claudius. Some say Palestine was completely empty of Jews some say it wasn't but that is more about todays politics. Jews, whether any were left in Palestine or not were effectively banished under Claudius.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/24/2006 1:35:31 AM >

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 1:31:35 AM

philosophy

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"So, if this is the standard, are you going to be all supportive of the suggestion that every Muslim on the planet is an evil terrorist? Or do you have a different set of standards for them?

Before you get anywhere, you have to get past hypocrisy."

Coming from the poster who started a thread that tried to blame liberals for making the Iraq war a disaster it is a bit rich to accuse me of hypocrisy. i responded to a poster who made the ridiculous assertion that christians dont want to murder other people. Clearly this is incorrect, so will you tell me why i am being a hypocrite for correcting someones factual error?
There is one set of standards.....don't be a murdering bastard........i believe it applies equally to both Christians and Muslims, which is all i said earlier. How is that hypocrisy?

Of course, the real hypocrisy is when people want to apply standards to other cultures that they wont apply to their own. That IS hypocrisy. So, can we expect all those who take the extremists of a religion (usually Islam) and then characterise the entire religion in that way to apply such logic acrosss all religions?

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 4:39:18 AM

LTRsubNW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

The time to stop an enemy is before they get WMD, not after.

(You really ought to get that stutter looked at)

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 4:43:48 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

The time to stop an enemy is before they get WMD, not after.

Well let's blow the shit out of North Dakota. They might get them someday. And Sri Lanka; I think we should consider Trinidad and Tobago, and of course Nigeria and Ghana.

Ron

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