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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 9:04:52 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Ah yes Mustard gas not potent at all just killed thoiusands during WWI, not dangerous at all.

Gas is not destructive to property which is exactly why it was invented in the first place. So destruction is not the standard to use, and comparing them to conventional arms is pretty much an exact case of apples and oranges.

Again 14 YEARS to prove he had destroyed it, and all he ever did was play the suffle game with the inspectors.
It would be 14 more years and the UN would still have been playing Saddam's game by Saddam's rules.

Just as with any case basic logic applies 20- 10 does not = 0. Saddam had 14 years which is 3 presidential terms to do just that, he didn't meet Bush Sr. standard of proof, He didn't meet Clinton's standard of proof, and he didn't meet GW Bush's standard of proof. Also he never met the UN's standard of proof.

How long after it becomes obvious that the other party never intends to comply before action becomes justified?

I wasn't conned either I was convinced it was time to go in back when Bush Sr was in office and the deadline for compliance was 200% past due. After that point any time was OK by me. It is that kind of negotiation, the kind where you demand X and threaten Y and don't follow through on Y reguardless of how long past the FIRM (HA HA HA HA yeah it's really firm) deadline, that makes sure that negotiations fail at later times.

IE Iran can be pretty sure that militarily we are at least 10 years from actually doing anything but threatening.
Kinda like the old "I'm going to count to 3 and then you're gonna get it 1, 2, 2.5, 2.51, 2.52,2.53,....."
The world eventually figures out how far they can push before the spanking comes.


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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 9:08:34 PM   
StrongButKind


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Status: offline 		That's why I spank on 1, 2, and 3.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 9:28:21 PM   
subexploring


Posts: 103
Joined: 12/28/2005
Status: offline 		There are quite a lot of weapons that have killed thousands in different conflicts.  Muskets, spears, the list goes on.  No reputable intelligence service thought that Saddam had nukes or was anywhere vaguely close to them.

True that Saddam let UNSCOM in again only when threatened with invasion, but if we had truly been interested in whether he had WMDs we could simply have let them do their work.  They would not have found any.  Indeed, it turns out that during the 90s the UN inspectors were correct in not finding any WMDs.  Saddam did permit them effective inspections during the 90s. But he blustered and muddied up the issue probably to scare neighboring countries and potential rebels about his actual strength.  He wanted Iran thinking he had as many weapons as possible.  Of course, now that he is gone Iran's power in the area is significantly expanded, so you have people pushing the insanely stupid idea of confronting Iran militarily.  That would be even worse than the Iraq invasion, which is already shaping up to be perhaps the worst decision in U.S. foreign policy history. 

The more fundamental error here is thinking that it is any of our business whether some country halfway around the world that is no threat to us has some type of weapon.  If we continue to believe that it is our job to run the world, or even the Middle East, by force then it is going to be a very long century.  We have neither the strength, the competence, the will, the resources, the knowledge, or the popularity to do so.  We need to confine our military to killing people who have actually harmed us, once we do that we will be able to devote ourselves to our true national genius, which is invention and commerce.  Unfortunately, thinking up pretexts to engage in silly wars all over the world is a major source of pleasure to Washington policy intellectuals who want to feel powerful, and it provides full employment for an American military that is several times larger than it needs to be to actually defend this country.     

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 9:33:27 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Actually, it was not that the UN was not trying to inspect, it is that Saddam REFUSED to let them inspect.  That is when it was declared that enough was enough and the US moved in.

I am not a neocon, not even close to it, but it takes a complete nimwit to miss the facts that we were allowed to observe.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/24/2006 10:47:21 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

I remember Clinton, Gore, Albright,


Yes Yes..... I remember those three crooked do-gooders also.... They pushed the first domino over in a long line leading to the bankruptcy of this country when they got us involved in Kosovo. They were just like those nosy neighbors---we have in office right now-- peeking over the backyard fence, wanting to get involved in everyone's business.


- R


PS - I used to live in town and had one of those backyards with a fence.....but with all the nosy neighbors, I decided to purchase a secluded little country farm, and live in peace and privacy. 


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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 2:40:05 AM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
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Status: offline 		Yeah it was also on the planet at the time. 

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 4:11:31 AM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
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Status: offline 		Without reading all the other responses... i'm not gonna agree or disagree. I'm just gonna throw in my 2 cents here. 9/11 was an attack by Osama. And after the attack.... we went after him. Within a few weeks he was all but forgotten. Tossed on the back burner so that Bush could go after the man who tried to kill his daddy. To this day....I think of this as I do the OJ situation... they're both guilty fuckers. From what they have allowed out with the media...Bush lied... we all know it.. but we're suppose to be stupid and not see it. But because everyone (The USA that is) Wanted blood... for the attack on us.. MOST believed Saddam helped Osama....and all hell broke loose. Before inspections where done....reports file (altered).... Bush was determined to go in. And he did. He wanted Saddam killed in the invasion. But had to settle for being captured and tried. Now somewhere down the road... I wouldn't be surprised to see that Saddam helped Osama.

Either way... Bush greased enough palms. Got what he wanted. And we're still paying the price for 9/11. For every man or woman that dies in Iraq... it's 9/11 all over again. Sucks don't it??!!


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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 6:07:05 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fosterpiti

Gee, back in the '90's long before Bush was around to blame, I remember Clinton, Gore, Albright, and Kerry ALL saying that it was a sure bet that Saddam wasn't complying with the UN sanctions and was probaly building up a stockpile of chemical weapons working towards a nuclear program, and probably trying to develop biological weapons as well. Funny, I never thought of THEM as "neocons"!

Gee, none of them ever went to war over the issue either.  Now that's funny.

~stef

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 6:13:08 AM   
mnottertail


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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 6:19:54 AM   
yourMissTress


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Status: offline 		This is why I heart Ron.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 7:19:15 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Foster,

quote:

I remember Clinton, Gore, Albright, and Kerry ALL saying that it was a sure bet that Saddam wasn't complying with the UN sanctions and was probably building up a stockpile of chemical weapons working towards a nuclear program, and probably trying to develop biological weapons as well. Funny, I never thought of THEM as "neocons"!


Whatever they were, they weren't stupid enough to
  • Invade
  • Invade without a plan
  • Invade without a plan and insufficient troops
  • Invade a country whose major ethnic group is the same as Iran
  • Invade and base their plan on a documented Iranian double agent

But yeah, other than that, they are all alike.  I mean being all talk and no action is the same as Bush, at least there we agree.

quote:

He, like many others in the world today, learned that if you can lock up the other side in negotiations long enough, you can achieve what you want without having to fight for it, just by talking the opposition to death! Where have YOU been?


I have been in the part of the world that sees what Bush has done
  • Forgotten to get the guy who attacked us on 9/11
  • Holds hands with the leaders of the country that attacked us
  • Eliminated a non Muslim run government
  • Created a powerful ally to Iran
  • Goaded Israel into a disastrous war with Hezzbollah
  • Launched Iran from a backwater to the major power player

quote:

I've spent probably a year out of the last three in the Persian Gulf, and get tired of armchair quarterbacks who pontificate on situations they only know by slanted and biased media accounts!


Us "armchair quarterbacks" called this mess LONG before the invasion and most did so with 100% accuracy.  Any idiot could look at Iraq and predict:
  • its Shia majority, who's leaders had been harboured by Iran for decades, and see that we didn't want them running Iraq.
  •   that occupying a country as large as Iraq would require a serious commitment of troops AFTER the war.
  • that Iraq would be a long and insanely expensive occupation
  • Syria and Iran would meddle and we needed troops to seal the borders
  • that we would need every available MP
  • that securing the ammo dumps should have been a top priority, I mean I heard somewhere that we were looking for WMD
  • occupying the oil ministry but little else showed our real priorities
  • that using Abeu Ghraib prison was a bad PR idea

I could go on but us "armchair quarterbacks" get tired of making predictions of how utterly fucking stupid Bush's next action will be.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 9:17:13 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Saddam thought he was unassailable - that was why and how he managed to survive for so long without compliance. Saddam thought he knew that whatever everyone else thought about him and whatever atrocities he perpetrated, that he was safe from removal because he thought he knew that in his absence the vacuum in Iraq would be filled with Islamist extremists and be subject to Iranian influence - things that everyone who disliked him, disliked even more - so no one would remove him, whatever he did or didnt do.

Saddam was right - except that he didnt take into account a fool in the White House who likely didnt even know where Iraq was until it was pointed out to him on a map, and doesnt seem to understand the niceties of international relations which were obvious to the majority of the rest of the world and to former administrations who did not press home the advantage after liberating Kuwait for exactly the above reasons.

Thank goodness for Roosevelt - if he hadnt been re-elected so many times then the two terms rule might never have been introduced and we'd now be looking at the possibility of a third term of blundering from a man I wouldnt trust to run a piss up in a brewery, let alone a country like the USA. Just a shame he got the presidency in the first place and will retire and leave the new incumbent to face the consequences of his actions, along with thousands more families who get bad news about their sons and daughters stuck in the ongoing mess that is now Iraq. Its good that Saddam was removed but unforgivable that the situation was allowed to get to this in his absence.

And the idea that Saddam helped the 9/11 terrorists or had any sympathy for them is unlikely in the extreme too. Why would he help people who wanted to also overthrow him and whose support came from states opposed to his own I wonder? Thinking about how Saddam dealt with people and his eye for good PR, if he had had any contact with the terrorists at all, then he would I'm sure have turned them in at the opportune moment and received the gratitude of the world. How could the antipathy against him then continue, if he had performed such a feat as the intelligence agencies of the western world could not? How could sanctions and accusations be levelled against such a capable and responsible leader?

E



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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 5:04:20 PM   
fosterpiti


Posts: 6
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: fosterpiti

Gee, back in the '90's long before Bush was around to blame, I remember Clinton, Gore, Albright, and Kerry ALL saying that it was a sure bet that Saddam wasn't complying with the UN sanctions and was probaly building up a stockpile of chemical weapons working towards a nuclear program, and probably trying to develop biological weapons as well. Funny, I never thought of THEM as "neocons"!

Gee, none of them ever went to war over the issue either.  Now that's funny.

~stef


OK here's fundamental truth for you. Liberals will NEVER solve a problem, they throw money at it to show they are concerned, but if the issuse is resolved, they can no longer use it politically. Case in point, Al Gore and Education, he screwed up on this one by pointing out how dismal our education system is, but he didn't have any real good answers when asked " What have you been doing about it as Vice President for EIGHT years"

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 5:17:28 PM   
fosterpiti


Posts: 6
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline 		Crappy, what was our 'plan' when we invaded North Africa in WWII? Where was the Exit stragegy? HOW LONG WILL WE BE FORCED TO 'OCCUPY' GERMANY AND JAPAN? The base at Guantanamo has been there since the Spanish American War! OF COURSE there is an always was a plan to have a permanent base in Iraq!

As to making Iran a world player, don't you think the Iranians persuing nukes might have something to do with that? OH RIGHT, lets negotiate with them, and offer them nuclear technology that isn't compatable with weapons design! That'll work, look at the miraculous results Clinton had with that 'plan' in North Korea! But then they (who have VAST reserves of natural gas, and virtually every other fossil fuel known to man, gas in 10% of the price we pay for it here!) only want it for peaceful energy production.

I'm not going to waste my time on this thread anymore, you are all just engaged in Bush bashing, and while I have lost alot of respect for him, I hate seeing important issues that will affect my families security for generations being used as a mere political football. "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" study the Soviet pullout of Afghanistan and see what'll happen if we don't maintain a presence in Iraq.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 5:26:13 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Iran has every right to pursue nuclear technology as a signatory of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. The USA is once again insisting on one rule for itself and one for the rest of the world. America keeps talking about rogue states getting hold of nuclear technology but the USA is the only country ever to have used nukes.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 5:31:16 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:


OK here's fundamental truth for you. Liberals will NEVER solve a problem, they throw money at it to show they are concerned, but if the issuse is resolved, they can no longer use it politically. Case in point, Al Gore and Education, he screwed up on this one by pointing out how dismal our education system is, but he didn't have any real good answers when asked " What have you been doing about it as Vice President for EIGHT years"


Well if that ain't the most vacuous and diversionary statement thus far in this thread. Way to change the subject. Never is such a teltale term, especially when SHOUTED.
0

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 5:36:26 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Hey fosterpita,

1st thank  you for serving.

tho- im curious- why the ice cream cone emblem ?  [just wondering]      

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 6:23:23 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Foster,

When you can't argue based on the fact but want to preserve your ignorance, you are right, it is best to leave.

I am glad to see however, you have finally gained enough insight to have lost respect for Bush.  Some of us just saw it long before you did, a concept that might make you stop and think.

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 7:23:23 PM   
Arpig


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Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Sorry Whip, but the fact that you agree with this idea just makes it all that much more unlikely in my mind.

But to be fair, I will give it a go...just what did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

< Message edited by Arpig -- 8/25/2006 7:26:54 PM >

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RE: Iraq had something to do with 9/11 - 8/25/2006 10:07:53 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig



But to be fair, I will give it a go...just what did Iraq have to do with 9/11?


NOT A DAMN THING... other than it's been said that Saddam helped Osama... RUMORED to of helped... Bush needed an excuse to go into.. he got it.


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