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RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 8:14:07 PM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline 		I see it as an occasionally useful tool to cut through the bullshit, if you can't let up, it's neurotic and abusive.

Very occasionally I encounter a woman who sees me as a human being, and not a rung on the social ladder - usually a lower rung. The whole culture runs on humiliation and degradation, exploiting Narcissism, it sells deoderant.

I was kinda cruising a medical site, 30 year old virgins and women distraught over the smell of their own vaginas - what a fuckin' world.

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 8:26:32 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		CM is being finicky and won't let me see page two of this thread yet.

Bearlee, I can not seem to get enough of both.  I do not know why that is, but I tend to crave harsher and harsher humiliation AND degradation.  What used to really affect me is now ordinary, and on we go.

There was a thread once on "emotional masochism" and I suspected then that perhaps I carry that characteristic, which is why I respond as I do to being so degraded.  It makes me feel very small to him, and his power over me feels overwhelming.  Mind you, I am only so affected when Master does this.  Anyone else attempting it tends to just irritate me. 

On edit - - just to add there is a balance to this.  If he degraded me ALL the time I suspect it would be quite damaging.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 8/25/2006 8:27:32 PM >

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 8:34:20 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

interesting thread..  i have been both humiliated and degraded (won't go into specifics).  Both are great, however, in my humble opinion, it cannot be just humiliation and degradation all the time... both of those things have to be backed-up with appreciation.  i am probably stating the obvious, but there are those that think it is ok to do nothing but humiliate and degrade. 


The purpose of bringing down to base is to give a firmer footing to grow up from once more. Not keep one under a rock to die.


I think this is a good place to elaborate further on what I 'didn't' say before.

When we decide we fancy BDSM and we wish to experiment (from a top/dom(me)/Master/Mistress perspective) we find that creating some sort of 'pain' is interesting.  And it can be, and is.

So we learn how to use paddles and crops and whips and floggers and our hands and clamps and this and that and we can create a whole raft of pain.  And we can find that interesting.  To the point that we can make each other black and blue and red and purple and in and out of the hospital.  And as long as that's all consentual, then it's all good and fun.  The bumps and bruises and broken bones and, assuming the other person does make it out of the coma, all of these things will heal.

But playing inside the mind, this is something different.

Kids, don't think you have to try 'this' at home.

As a dominant, I realized long ago what great responsibility I have in the person who's kneeling before me.  Yes, I can create physical pain all I want and I understand the risks.

But I have the dubious 'ability' to crush somebody's soul if I'm not careful.  And the thing is, you don't even have to be an experienced 'holder of power' to be able to do that.  And the sad thing is it's done every day.

Read the thread about the woman who's told she's not young enough, pretty enough and experienced enough.

Read the threads from the single submissive women who get involved with married Dom's who are a little too self-preoccupied.

Read the threads about the torments of being overweight and dealing with other people in the scene.

The list goes on and on.

Every time I'm in a room with someone kneeling at my feet, I know exactly what I'm capable of.  The feeling of power courses through me.  Yes, I will push.  Yes, I will twist.  Yes, I can and will mindfuck.

But I will leave you a better person and you will love me all the more.  Because I understand my responsibilities and I thrive on my responsibilities and I know what you want and need.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 8:50:11 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		In other words,if you can' improve the property-or have a desire to.................

You have no business acting as the demo man.

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 8:50:21 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx
But I will leave you a better person and you will love me all the more.  Because I understand my responsibilities and I thrive on my responsibilities and I know what you want and need.


This really sums it up nicely.  You are correct - in my case, Master possesses the ability to truly crush my spirit.  There is indeed that line where "going too far" can be crossed, even in error.  In his case, he makes certain to know me as intimately as possible, and to know exactly how far he can bring me before it is time to linger...or even turn back.  The result has been rather incredible.

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 8:59:55 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		I think the way I would view the difference between the two is that degradation is more of a personal nature and leaves a long-lasting scarring/damaging effect.

For example, I had a relationship with someone 20 years old.... he responded very well to humiliation (slight feminization, made to put his sweaty sock in his mouth, being referred to by certain bitch/slut names, etc.).... but if I had resorted to degrading him in a way he might relate to on a serious level (i.e. If I called him stupid, or said he wasn't muscular enough, or  ugly, or that he was the worst bedroom experience, etc.) he could have been very emotionally scarred.... even though none of those things were true.

It would be the responsibility of the Dom/me to know where the damage could occur, and draw the line there.  Then again, there may be some who require no line, and that is okay too.

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 9:24:12 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		I agree, there has to be  Limit.

I'd never force a slave to vote Bush.

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 9:40:17 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Seeing a sub disrespected would make me feel uncomfortable. I totally understand that some subs want humiliation, objectification and what have you, but that is different than showing disrespect. How do I know the difference? I just do… as I’m sure most of you do, too. I can do unspeakable things to a sub, yet, show them respect.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 9:50:37 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		Very well said.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 10:02:09 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I know what you're saying, but the "I know it when I see it" test is never very convincing to me, because different people "know" different things when they see the same sight.

If you can't easily articulate something, there's probably a reason why it's not easy to articulate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

How do I know the difference? I just do…

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 10:29:54 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

I agree, there has to be  Limit.

I'd never force a slave to vote Bush.


lol  Talk about scarring and damaging, huh?  Besides it would hardly be fair to make the entire country suffer along with your slave.

Is it 2008, yet?


(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/25/2006 11:30:02 PM   
KnifeCandy


Posts: 32
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

As a dominant, I realized long ago what great responsibility I have in the person who's kneeling before me.  Yes, I can create physical pain all I want and I understand the risks.

But I have the dubious 'ability' to crush somebody's soul if I'm not careful.  And the thing is, you don't even have to be an experienced 'holder of power' to be able to do that.  And the sad thing is it's done every day.

Every time I'm in a room with someone kneeling at my feet, I know exactly what I'm capable of.  The feeling of power courses through me.  Yes, I will push.  Yes, I will twist.  Yes, I can and will mindfuck.

But I will leave you a better person and you will love me all the more.  Because I understand my responsibilities and I thrive on my responsibilities and I know what you want and need.



Bravo! Very well put. My Dom can be extremely degrading within the confines of a scene. Name calling, objectification, ownership mindfucks and much more are part of our play, and I enjoy it all immensely. But he knows that I am a strong person going in, and he doesn't use the sort of attacks that he well knows would touch genuine nerves (e.g. weight issues). Thus I always come out of our play just as strong and confident as when I went in, if not moreso. This is one of the reasons I am so adamant about intelligence being a primary requirement in a Dom. They must posess sufficient intelligence, both of the intellectual and emotional types, to divine the (sometimes fine) line between what is humiliating/degrading within a scene, and what is actually damaging/hurtful to the underlying psyche.

-KC

_____________________________

You laugh at me because I am different. I laugh at you because you are all the same.

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/26/2006 1:44:57 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		*I don't like seeing other people extremely degraded, if it looks (to me)  like it's not consensual (even if it is consensual).

I have a pretty strong stomach, and personally, humiliation is something I like to experience myself, so it would have to be be fairly degrading to turn me off, but - like someone else (ExSteel) said: "I'd know it if I saw it." (I have not watched other people, "play" much, and usually only "play" privately, so far).   

LAM: I mean you no disrespect, but I know what Ex-Steel means by that remark he made: "I know it when I see it". Apparently, LAM, you don't believe in things like intuition, then? There was a best-selling book recently written about using one's "hunches" (especially "creepy" ones) in a successful manner, and paying attention to them, titled: "The Gift of Fear".  Detectives and investigators use their "hunches" successfully all the time, to catch criminials, for example.

Personally, usually - especially since reading that book, whenever I have a "bad feeling" about someone, especially if that person is bigger and stronger than I am, (or younger, or more helpless) if I see a situation where something about it doesn't just quite make sense to me, or seems "off", or gives me a "bad feeling in my gut" for some reason, even if I can't put my finger on exactly why - I pay attention to that impression. And it's turned out to be on target more often than not , and one person was actually arrested...

I was in a grocery store at around 2a.m. in my neighborhood about five years ago, and I was one of the few customers there at that hour (what can I say? I like to go to the grocery store when it's not crowded) - and the store I go to is a huge mega-supermarket. Three other customers were there that just stood out to me like a sore thumb at the time, because they were just "creepy" looking; they looked "out of it", like they were on drugs or something - they had this vacant expression and very creepy smiles, and looked like they hadn't bathed in awhile (unusual for the area, because the area is a middle-class neighborhood, and these people looked like they'd been sleeping in their car for a few days, or something).

I normally take no note of how other people dress, or act, in particular (and don't judge it, either, because I don't care about studff like that, normally) - but - something about these people gave off an air of  - just evil, and I cannot describe why I felt that - but I did. I just got this creepy, creepy feeling they were bad news. We ended up in some of the same store aisles, and they just sent chills up my spine. They tried to engage me in conversation, and I noticed they had no respect for what people term others' "personal space"(the got way too close to me, considering the aisles are very wide, and we were the only people in them at the time) - and so I just smiled, and said "good morning", and hurried over to the next aisle, specifically to avoid them.

They were two older people, in their fifties, a man and woman, who had a younger man with them, in his twenties - and the younger man looked as if he was with them against his will somehow- he had this zombie-like expression on his face -although if anyone had asked me to prove why I thought he wasn't with them willingly, I could not have definitively done it.

I went to the store manager and expressed my concerns (seeing them together bothered me that much, and I am pretty much a "mind my own business" type, plus I had shopping to do) - and the way they were acting also had creeped the manager out enough that he called the police (the security people had their eye on them as they'd been wandering the store aisles) , just to have them be there, at the store, to watch these folks I guess. The police asked to see the ID of the older couple (I forget the reason they were given), but - it turned out that the older couple were convicted kidnappers - and this younger guy with them had been drugged by them, and also robbed! (the manager told me this days later). The couple were arrested.

- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/26/2006 2:43:17 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/26/2006 2:27:15 AM   
maskedsow


Posts: 137
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		i like being made to do hummiliating things like be a doggy eat from a bowl roll in mud ect but i no longer find them hummilating but i still enjoy being made to do things others would find hummilating i think it was cause i was trained so well

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/26/2006 7:27:11 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		 
WOW...
 
Thank you all!  I followed Padriag's link and read more...from both he and LA...and others.  I always enjoy reading the two of them...they seem able to say things soooooo much better than I can.
 
I also much appreciated the words of  Mstrjx and Homestead...your intelligence and interest in pushing a sub while all the while keeping her safe just amaze me.  I wish more understood the value in a really good bdsm relationship and how to develop one!
 
KnifeCandy, heartfeltsub, agirl, ownedgirlie and again LA...thank you so much for your kind sharing and insite into how a girl can enjoy her own definitions of humiliation AND degradation and grow from the experiences.  It is a privilage getting to know all of you here. 
 
Thank you
bear


(in reply to maskedsow)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/26/2006 9:48:18 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not gonna get links since you've found more than enough already, but will add that whatever Owned says pretty much applies to me as well.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/26/2006 10:03:12 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I wanted to add to this, after thinking about it some.  The very first time he said something demeaning to me (by my defninition), it was extremely painful and I winced and cowered.  He did not go further, in fact he pulled back a bit.  Yet later I found myself hoping he would say that again.  I wrote to him in depth of it - of these feelings I did not much understand.  I craved it, even though it was painful.  He explored me further on it.  Again I would cringe yet would also become intensely aroused, and craved more.

There was a lot of painful humiliation that took place in my childhood and I suspect he hit some buried nerves.  Yet there was a part of me wanting to break through those past pains, and it was safe to do so with my Master.  Master inflicts things upon me (whether words, spankings, torments, etc.) with care and control (even though it seems pretty rough at the time, I know there is always care and control which drives him).  In my childhood, things were inflicted at random with no rhyme or reason, and in a scary, out of control environment.  It felt safe to dare to experience such "pains" with my Master, and as a result, he felt more powerful than ever, and I became more in awe of him than ever.  Our bond strengthened because he saw what I craved to endure for him, and because my trust and love in him grew for so carefully leading me to where I needed to go.

The things he says and does to me no longer cause me to cringe, rather I accept them readily and feel intensely submissive to him during the experience and after.


(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/26/2006 10:05:34 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm not gonna get links since you've found more than enough already, but will add that whatever Owned says pretty much applies to me as well.

Oops, I think I just blew your theory since I seem to recall you saying your childhood was a pretty healthy one.   But I can understand the feelings you derive from humiliation & degradation are much the same.  Once I broke the the past barriers, I became totally free to enjoy, enjoy, enjoy... :)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/26/2006 10:15:12 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm not gonna get links since you've found more than enough already, but will add that whatever Owned says pretty much applies to me as well.

Oops, I think I just blew your theory since I seem to recall you saying your childhood was a pretty healthy one.   But I can understand the feelings you derive from humiliation & degradation are much the same.  Once I broke the the past barriers, I became totally free to enjoy, enjoy, enjoy... :)


I have found that humiliation ceases to become so after a while. Context is everything.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Humiliation vs. Degradation - 8/26/2006 11:14:43 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I SAID I know what he means.  Or at least I think I do.  But that's exactly what's wrong with the whole "I know it when I see it" attitude: other people have to guess at what you're talking about, because you're not even trying to describe it.  This gets dangerous when, for example, Supreme Court justices say things like "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it."  Please, we need better criteria than what some cranky old Supreme Court justice claims to know when he sees something.  As I said, if you have a hard time describing something, there's probably a good reason why, and I think it's worth asking yourself why something is so hard to describe.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with intuition, though I will say that "intuition" is another one of those words (like "superstition," "appropriate," and so on) that means essentially nothing because everyone uses it in their own private sense.  Ask a hundred people what their "intuition" tells them, and you'll get a hundred different answers.

Edited to add: I forget to add my favorite offender to the list: "common sense."  I can tell right away that I'm not going to have anything to talk about with someone who believes in "common sense."

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

LAM: I mean you no disrespect, but I know what Ex-Steel means by that remark he made: "I know it when I see it". Apparently, LAM, you don't believe in things like intuition, then?


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 8/26/2006 11:19:56 AM >

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 40
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