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RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 11:34:25 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		And no mention of the environment?  That's the weakest area of all.  Libertarianism has nothing to say about protecting the environment, and that's the reason why libertarianism is going to disappear in this century as a viable political philosophy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Wired columnist Brooke Shelbey Biggs states "Libertarianism is uninformed capitalist greed in civil-rights clothing" and that there are "a few issues libertarians tend to ignore when talking about the promise of a future without government interference: inherent cultural disadvantage and affirmative action; public-works projects like freeways for all those new-money Jags around Silicon Valley; funding for the arts; child-abuse prevention and intervention; medical care for the elderly; and too many more to list. They are also not likely to complain loudly about capital-gains tax cuts or other tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 11:42:32 PM   
nefertari


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Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

That's why my first solution is to get the Insurance business out of bed with the employers, if the employer pays then the Insurance company only cares if the HR dept is happy with them. because unless they are upset they don't lose any clients.

Have the company pay the employee the money first and then the employee buy the insurance and the system begins to get efficient fast as well as getting responsive to the patients since they can walk next door whenever they get upset with the lack of service.

It's a bite sized chunk that would go a long way.


That's all good in theory, but not in  practice.  When was the last time you dealt with a large corporation?  As my mortgage company, Countrywide, told me, when I called to complain that they had misapplied my payment, "We service $5.5 billion in loans."  In other words, your piddly mortgage isn't going to affect our bottom line all that much.  Same kind of attitude with my ISP and cable company recently.  I'm-sorry-you-had-that-experience,-but-there-is-nothing-I can-do-about-it attitude. 

The service on an individual basis would be worse than what we have today.  If an employer decides to go next door, the insurance company faces a bigger loss than if an individual goes next door.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 11:49:27 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I hope you are just screwing around here, two-elephants-fucking.....I do not think the environment is on the plate at all other than a feel good issue to the do-gooders.........as it always is.

At the max, our 50 united states and some 17 foreign territories are on a 2 party system, the rest is bullshit........Joe Lieberman as an independant is joe without the support of the democratic party..........occasional green peacer shows up, but you don't have any real rainbow to coalesce.


i REALLY don't know what  George Gallup is polling, but it ain't throw away diapers when you have such heady issues as remote crop-dusting being used as provable WMD before the entire world........people having contemplated that to the depths of their soul and betting freedoms on it,
are happy to let the chips fall where they may, as regards the environment until such a time as the threat is vanquished..............



LOL, that is so lame, there is no apologizing for the beneath contempt.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/26/2006 11:54:35 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I just don't see it as Government's job to do it. It's my personal obligation to help those in need not a civic one. It's a matter of which is the correct way to fund such problem situations. Myself I beleive in funding it volentarily as opposed to through government.



I've always lived in a universal system and I don't know anyone that uses the healthcare needlessly, quite the opposite in fact. People go for their regular health checks because prevention is not only better than cure but cheaper than cure. A system like America's is also very expensive and we keep more money in our own pockets because we have a universal system. No one loses and everyone gains.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 12:54:01 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Lotus, illegals have been sneaking into the country for the last 30 years.
Yes, that bum in the W.H. won't do anything about it, won't get us out of NAFTA, The "U.N.", Nato and won't do a lot of things.
My point is that we can AFFORD to have a national healthcare plan provided we do away with two things that some will play politics with.
Can't you just hear all the liberals screaming about "those poor starving African babies" if we try to do away with "Foreign Aid?"
Also, all the Lobbyists on "K" street in Washington will be up in arms as most of their money comes from foreign countries that are "competing" for U.S. Taxpayer dollars in foreign aid!
Look at who owns most of the yachts in the Potomic river yacht clubs!
Lotus, have you ever been to Washington, D.C. before?
Do you know how things work there?

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 3:12:44 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I've always lived in a universal system and I don't know anyone that uses the healthcare needlessly, quite the opposite in fact.


OK then explain this...when the UK improved unemployment benefit. ie made it less generous, there was a massive increase in the number of people registering SICK.  Weren't they sick before ?

I am in favour of a National Health Service/ Universal Medicare but it needs to be set up to avoid abuse and stay under control. Thats the problem.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/27/2006 3:14:55 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 3:50:59 AM   
Pimpernell


Posts: 198
Joined: 12/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

And no mention of the environment?  That's the weakest area of all.  Libertarianism has nothing to say about protecting the environment, and that's the reason why libertarianism is going to disappear in this century as a viable political philosophy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Wired columnist Brooke Shelbey Biggs states "Libertarianism is uninformed capitalist greed in civil-rights clothing" and that there are "a few issues libertarians tend to ignore when talking about the promise of a future without government interference: inherent cultural disadvantage and affirmative action; public-works projects like freeways for all those new-money Jags around Silicon Valley; funding for the arts; child-abuse prevention and intervention; medical care for the elderly; and too many more to list. They are also not likely to complain loudly about capital-gains tax cuts or other tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism



Brooke Shelbey Biggs is wrong.  Libertarians don't ignore those issues, they have discussed them over and over again.  They just don't give her the answers that she wants to hear.

Libertarianism has plenty to say about "the environment".  If you pollute your neighbours property you compensate them for it.  If you want to protect a specific habit, you buy the land, either with your own money, or you get other people involved.  There were plenty of charities and funds and whatever you want to call them looking out for the environment in the 19th Century.  That's a long time before the government gave a crap about it.

It is governments that have sent species to the point of extinction.  By refusing to compensate land owners in the US for their land taken when endangered species/sub species are discovered on their property they place people in the position of choosing to go bankrupt or of killing off the animals.  It is governments subsidising non-sustainable farming methods.  It is governments dumping massive amounts of pollutants into the ocean.  It is private enterprise in Africa that brought back the Black Rhino from near extinction.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 4:01:29 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"Life delt you a shitty hand with that but still that does not entitle you to reach into my pocket, if I want to give then I give if I do not then what specificly gives you the right to take it from me? I'm sure it sound cold hearted and to an extent when it comes to government I am cold hearted, But I'll give and give to charities volentaritly. I just don't see it as Government's job to do it. It's my personal obligation to help those in need not a civic one. It's a matter of which is the correct way to fund such problem situations. Myself I beleive in funding it volentarily as opposed to through government."

my italics to Archer's post.

i agree with the italicised part of this post. The debate is simply over what is the correct way to fund these things, a universal system or a responding system. If the latter, operated by charities, we have to accept a certain percentage of failure. Charities do not have universal access to society, they are not statutory bodies. Therefore some, an unknown percentage, will fall through the net. Let's be clear here, that percentage will, in the most part, be the most in need, the absolutely incredibly vulnerable. Or we could have a universal system, government set up and statutory in nature. There will be failures but not on the same magnitude as a non-statutory system.
If the over-arching aim is to respond to need, to care for the most vulnerable then a universal system is clearly the more correct. If, however, one places the right of the individual to control their little piece of the token economy above any duty of care to the vulnerable, then we can leave healthcare to charities.
So, which is the more correct? All depends on your priorities.

(in reply to Pimpernell)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 4:17:07 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Healthcare is obviously part of the wider social welfare issue.

Morally and ethically it should be common sense that as a society we have a duty to create the conditions for equal opportunity.

The economic benefits of providing social welfare are rarely discussed as people tend to regurgitate the Government line "paying out to scroungers means less for us".

In actual fact, there is a good case to suggest that a fully provided for social welfare system will benefit the economy in the long term. The reason being it will create the conditions to get people into work which creates growth in the economic cycle (as people will contribute to the economy rather than being subsidised by it).

Poverty, unemployment, poor housing, poor education and poor health are all linked and they all dictate burden on the wider national economy. If you remove these conditions then you remove the burden.

So in answer to the question, if as a society we could see beyond our want for the second car and the bigger house we could create a far more prosperous and stable society. However, the depth of the indoctrination that our Governments have imposed upon us means that we have far too many people in our societies who don't have the depth of thought to realise what will foster such a society.

Some posters on here desperately want to show they are independent thinkers removed from Government spin and packaging. What makes me smile is these are the same people who think that we need to bomb people around the world and also think we should see those less fortunate than us as scroungers who don't deserve any help - if this is not buying the Government line hook, line and sinker then I don't know what is. Ultimately, if you don't have freedom of thought you don't have any freedom at all so chastising other parts of the world for a lack of freedom is simply plain old nonsense if you have been indoctrinated by the Government to the extent you think self-interest is what we need out of life.

Regards

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 4:23:49 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

You can say all that altruistic shit, but that ain't what it is about....government is not what you read in the history classes in high school.........they have to peel some for themselves and oversight it so they are sure your money is not being wasted, which is a huge waste of money, then they have to talk with Jim, the lobbyist who is wont to remind them that  his client spent 50,000 dollars on their campaign and that while they have no expectation of recompense and will bide by and if necessary support their current positon that they may not be able to do so in the future (around the reelection time)

more, but that is a capitalist society, someone is going to  take home chips at the end of the day.

Ron



All true, Ron, but let's remember that in the communist systems, lots of chip taking went on, even moreso; at least in the capitalist countries, we get to keep most of our chips. Having said that, the whole lobbyist deal makes me want to launch my breakfast.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 4:27:27 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Have y ou tried reporting those various companies to the Better Business Bureau?  I'm currently entangled with a company over my cell phone and its warranty.  NOTHING has been done until I finally sent a complaint into BBB.  All of a sudden, they are happy to waive the repair charges (which by the way START at $100).  Course, that all happened on Friday...let's see how long it takes to get the damn thing repaired.

(in reply to nefertari)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 4:32:01 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Wired columnist Brooke Shelbey Biggs states "Libertarianism is uninformed capitalist greed in civil-rights clothing" and that there are "a few issues libertarians tend to ignore when talking about the promise of a future without government interference: inherent cultural disadvantage and affirmative action; public-works projects like freeways for all those new-money Jags around Silicon Valley; funding for the arts; child-abuse prevention and intervention; medical care for the elderly; and too many more to list. They are also not likely to complain loudly about capital-gains tax cuts or other tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Adamantly opposing some speakers in this thread, I would like to assert that a desire for universal healthcare does not arise from a sense of entitlement - just the opposite really.

But I do find it interesting that people that are born into this world with nothing but the skin on their backs grow up thinking that they have to "own" everything to exclusion of the simple well-being of others. Born into an affluent culture like that of the U.S. it takes leaden testicles to think that the success of any individual is the product of his sweat alone. Even the basic utilities we rely upon are the products of government and the members of society working cooperatively.

You Libertarians think you are each an island to yourself. You are not. You are each of you members of a pack animal species known as primates. Yeah, I guess it might be nice to think of yourselves as "rugged individualists" but to do it you have to stand on the shoulders of everyone else. What if we decide to punch you in the ass until your stool runs with blood instead?



Hey, maybe that would help you with those skin tag issues.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 4:34:43 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

But how many times in this thread is the fact that I hav cited time after time that


I"M NOT ADVERSE TO HELPING SHORT TERM, OR THOSE WHO CANNOT DO FOR THEMSELVES

I just want to use a private system as opposed to a government system to administer it.

5 or 6 times through this thread, I've said it.

Charity is a wonderfull thing nothing wrong with giving it or recieveing it if it's needed. The trouble is determining when the need is there and what level of need you are willing to support.

I am simply proposing that we reduce the need for it to the lowest possible level through private means and then once everything that can be handled with private methods has been done the remaining people can be funded through goverment.


Archer, it doesn't matter how many times you state it, there are those here who won't/can't listen nor digest certain things, it would prevent them from slinging shit and propping their flacid egos up LOL.

In fairness, there are those more interested in looking smart or cool or whatever, from both sides of the aisle.

< Message edited by Level -- 8/27/2006 4:54:42 AM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 4:55:15 AM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Archer, it doesn't matter how many times you state it, there are those here who won't/can't listen nor digest certain things, it would prevent them from slinging shit and propping their flacid egos up LOL.


That there are.  And there are also the ones that claim to be pointing that out while simultaneously slinging shit and propping up their flacid egos.  LOL

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 4:55:39 AM   
topnswitch


Posts: 3
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		I lived in England for the first thirty years and then in the USA for the last ten, so I feel qualified to comment on both systems, having been an in-patient with both... 

England

Advantages


Anyone can walk into any hospital in the country (now anywhere in Europe) and get prompt emergency treatment.
The Health Service will find you a doctor, it may not be your first choice however.
The cost of medicine is much lower, I used to work for a big european drug company - they would write to the government and say "We want to increase our prices by 10% this year" and the government would reply "Well we'll let you have 5% - and since we are your only customer, you don't have much choice".
Advertising of drugs used to be banned - no more driving up demand for stuff that wasn't really necessary.
Finally, damages for medical negligence were capped, not unreasonably so, but no $20M awards

Disadvantages


Much higher tax burden - I paid 40% income tax, 9% national insurance (covers lousy pension and the health care) and 17.5% sales tax.
Limited choice of doctors and no realistic choice of specialist (though pretty much anyone who made it to surgeon in England seemed very well qualified).
Approximately six month's wait for standard procedures that were non-life threatening, could be even longer.
No heroic measures, the health service would typically not work to prolong a terminal cancer sufferer's life (like my dad) another six months if they were realistically expected to die within a couple of years. (That said another friend, a chronic diabetic, for twenty years was continually treated and well looked after - so they don't always give up).
USA

Advantages


Money talks - if you have enough of it (or superb insurance) you can see anyone/anywhere for anything, often within a few days.
Technical care quality is very good and if it's not you can sue, sue and sue them till it is (though you will probably be dead first).
Lower taxes, though as a non-breeder, I've always thought it pretty unfair that I have to pay for my neighbors kids education, maybe that should be paid for by the parents (like South Africa for instance) and healthcare should be universal?

Drawbacks


What public care exists is really horrible (yes I experienced this with an injured friend in a lousy hospital in Baltimore).
Millions of Americans have no coverage.  Maybe because they work for an employer that doesn't provide it.
There is a HUGE coverage gap, many people hit 50, are laid off, have no realistic chance of getting another job and then have no coverage till medicare kicks in - just when they are most likely to suffer a major illness - this to my mind is the greatest evil in the system.  That employers are not required to cover ex-employees (at least on the same terms as current ones) until the employee finds a new job.  COBRA should run until medicare - if the person needs it.
I've known someone die, because they didn't get themselves to a hospital quickly enough when they had a heart attack - because they didn't have insurance and were worried about the cost.  Is this really how a first world country wants to treat it's fellow citizens?

Summary

Even though I didn't think much of the English system while I was there, I have concluded that I would much rather have it, now that I live here. 

The right to get instant nationwide help without having to think about whether your insurance will or won't cover it (assuming you are lucky enough to have any), is an incredible freedom (and really should be enshrined in the US constitution).

I think all of the other G7 (most developed nations) have socialized medicine and I don't think any of their systems are perfect - but I also think it's something we need to achieve - the second Bush had another crack at Iraq, maybe the second Clinton will have another crack at healthcare :-)

Cheers, Dan


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 5:01:02 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Archer, it doesn't matter how many times you state it, there are those here who won't/can't listen nor digest certain things, it would prevent them from slinging shit and propping their flacid egos up LOL.


That there are.  And there are also the ones that claim to be pointing that out while simultaneously slinging shit and propping up their flacid egos.  LOL



True indeed. I guess we'll have to judge it by degrees.... those whose bread and butter is telling everyone how stupid they are, versus those who tire of it eventually and respond in kind. Such flawed things we humans are.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to nefertari)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 5:08:40 AM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
True indeed. I guess we'll have to judge it by degrees.... those whose bread and butter is telling everyone how stupid they are, versus those who tire of it eventually and respond in kind. Such flawed things we humans are.


I generally let the posts of those that are that being stupid speak for themselves.  They usually speak volumes.  Although, occassionally someone will catch me off my hormones and then, well, it's never good.  (hey, at least I have a really good excuse)

I really didn't see much mud slinging on here, though.  Just people debating their point of view.  But as we already know by now the position a particular individual is going to take (history tell us this), it's mostly just redundant.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 5:11:18 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Dan, thanks for your post , very informative. But I do hope you're wrong about a "second Clinton" lol.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to topnswitch)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 5:13:59 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
True indeed. I guess we'll have to judge it by degrees.... those whose bread and butter is telling everyone how stupid they are, versus those who tire of it eventually and respond in kind. Such flawed things we humans are.


I generally let the posts of those that are that being stupid speak for themselves.  They usually speak volumes.  Although, occassionally someone will catch me off my hormones and then, well, it's never good.  (hey, at least I have a really good excuse)

I really didn't see much mud slinging on here, though.  Just people debating their point of view.  But as we already know by now the position a particular individual is going to take (history tell us this), it's mostly just redundant.



The mud-slinging goes on in multiple threads *shrugs*, what bothers me is that some of the ones doing it are bright enough to not need it to get their points across.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to nefertari)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Universal Healthcare - 8/27/2006 5:16:45 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Archer/Level,

People are getting it and not dismissing it.

As a Government is simply a body elected to manage our societies through social welfare and economic acheivement why would you then effectively want to elect another Government called a private charity (or collection of private charities) to do the same job? These people are simply another elected group to manage our interests. Effectively, you are talking about overthrowing a Government and replacing it with another Goverment which does not have the know-how and resources to achieve the end of objective of social provision. You can never achieve the end objective through private charities (unless of course your end objective is to say "I am prepared to offer this much money and that is it so make the best of it you can").

Also, you are already paying for social provision to your Government, why would you want to pay for it again to a private charity? It doesn't make any sense.

The key point is this - you are already paying for social provision to your Government, the problem is they are spending this money on military capability and slaughtering people. If you really care about social welfare then there is one simple solution - pressurise your Government into spending your money, that you have already paid to them through taxation, on social provision.

Regards

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 120
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