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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 12:29:03 AM   
Dollbecky


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline 		I grew up in school uniform wore one from 5 til 16, in NZ 95% of schools have a uniform ...didnt crush my spirit or stiffle my creativity and I went to a school that had underwear and hair ribbon standands! US student seem a tad whiny to me
Suspending the kids seems a bit of a cop out ...why not ring the parents say "hey bring your kid some clothes "  send kids back to class ? Parents who dont turn up find a new school to dump their offspring in.
Dress codes seem a pain in the ass given they are so subjective...frankly I would have rather worn a set uniform then battle over matters of taste...But then outside of school I was a little gothling and explaining that I was not about to worship Satan or any other boggieman to some halfwit teacher with screwy morals would have pissed me right off.



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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 2:43:04 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Y'know aside from all the rationales for and against uniforms - freedom of speech, modeling future behavior, future work skills, parental responsibility vs school responsibility, etc... from what I've gathered from our meetings here before school begins, I have a feeling that this stand on uniforms is only the tip of an iceburg that is going to shock parents and students alike.

What happened in the OP's district has happened here too. It made the news the night before last. I didn't see it, but everyone was talking about it at work yesterday. Pontiac schools in Michigan had 75 students get suspended for being out of uniform on the first day of school. And know what? The administration there has said that they'll be doing it again and again until everyone knows that it's a new day there, and that the students no longer run the schools.

I have a feeling that this is only the beginning - the first small skirmish in what's going to be a much larger war - with the ability to receive a good education in a safe environment being at stake.

Uniforms may be a small thing, but having administration actually stand by a rule they've established is a new thing - and from someone who works in these schools on a daily basis, it's a very good thing.

People can't have it both ways. You can't complain of the discipline problems in schools and then say discipline is the parents' responsibility and not the schools'. You can't complain that public schools are unruly and dangerous, where no teaching takes place, and then complain when those who work there take steps to re-establish a safe and supportive learning environment and start to demand excellence from the students - even including their appearance.

While I'm all for "comfort," I don't necessarily think that learning and "comfort" are synonymous. School is not someone's living room, and most people's best learning moments have been periods of intense discomfort. So when a parent declares that a uniform policy - that they were aware of before enrolling their child in the school - is "unfair" and "uncomfortable," no one's listening.

Tuck in your shirt, go to class - on time, do your homework, work hard. It's a mantra around here, and I certainly hope it doesn't change anytime soon.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 8/30/2006 2:45:38 AM >

(in reply to Dollbecky)
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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 4:55:24 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"This truly baffles me.  When did it become a mandate that everyone be allowed to "express themselves" in whatever fashion they choose, wherever they choose, whenever they choose?  Especially kids, who are still learning appropriate judgement and don't yet have all the skills to make the best choices.  Maybe the debate should be whether it is the purpose of the school environment to allow unrestrained self-expression of students...  any takers?"

oh you know i can't resist that.....lol
What's the alternative to 'everyone be(ing) allowed to express themselves'? Is it where a group of people who consider themselves authoritive create a code which allows some leeway, but ultimately seeks to control what people do? Should children take from school the lesson that, ultimately, other people have control of their lives, or ought they leave feeling its their choices that count? Clearly issues such as safety come into play, but given some of the examples posted in the whole thread (and not just the OP Holly, read up for the student suspended multiple times for not tucking a shirt in) is there another agenda driving the school uniform debate? 

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 6:57:25 AM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
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Status: offline 		Two slight derailments of this thread.  If you are a regimented, uptight student wearing a uniform who cannot easily cope with having more than one thought in your head at a time, you might want to skip this one. (GRIN).

Off Topic Point ONE:  Dollbecky (from N-zed) and MissyRane (from Iceland):  I appreciate your comments, but I think you do not realize how vastly different your largely homogenous societies are from the hodgepodge/melting pot/diverse culture of the USA.  Issues like school uniforms, school standards, pornography restrictions and religious incursion in public life are NOTHING in your countries like they are in this country.  I know, N-zed has issues with aboriginal people, and, I guess, Iceland has issues with...I don't know...gnomes?  But to be frank, these concerns are nothing like they are in the USA.  What is the percentage of non-white, non-Christian, different ethic origins in your respective countries?  I think N-Z is like 92% white AngloSaxon, and Iceland like 98%?  Tell me I'm wrong, but keep in mind that in this discussion your milage (or is it your kilometricage?) DOES vary.

Off Topic Point Two: 
quote:

From Dollbecky:  I went to a school that had underwear and hair ribbon standands!


REALLY?  Who gets that job?  Adolescent girl underwear checker?  Ok....maybe N-Zed isn't as straightlaced as we all think *GRIN*

E.

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 7:33:55 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956
LA, and others who protest the regimentation/control of "dress codes":  Guess what folks:  We all have dress codes.  And all of you follow them, so don't be hypocritical in complaining about the rules this high school introduced.  The difference between the dress code at your place of work and the one in the Hammond schools is that the school code is explicit.

A person is not a hypocrit for following rules that they disagree with.  I completely disagree with clothing regulations of all kinds.  I'm completely aware that I follow them because I don't want to deal with the consequences.

I am against there being dress codes of any kind, just as I am against their being sex codes of any kind when it comes to informed consent.

quote:

LA, I don't remember what it is you do professionally, but I bet you don't wear the same attire to your job as you do to 1. A dungeon party or 2.  A pool party.  Why not?  Can you honestly say that what you wear to work is your choice for comfort and utility?  I doubt anyone in the modern work force can honestly claim that.

No, and I never attempted to make that claim.  I do not deny that dress codes exist.  I do not deny that I attempt to fit in certain ways with my culture because I am not independently wealthy and do not want to give up other freedoms and privileges that I would have to if I ignored those codes.

I never said I don't follow the dress code.  I said I don't think there should be dress codes.

quote:

Yes, the teacher was a moron.  But then again, are you really proud of wasting the resources of the school and the school board on this issue to prove the teacher was a moron, rather than having your daughter change her shirt?

I know I would be. 

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 7:37:55 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
People can't have it both ways. You can't complain of the discipline problems in schools and then say discipline is the parents' responsibility and not the schools'. You can't complain that public schools are unruly and dangerous, where no teaching takes place, and then complain when those who work there take steps to re-establish a safe and supportive learning environment and start to demand excellence from the students - even including their appearance.
juliet

The problem is allowing other people to define "excellent clothing" for another.  Unless we're talking private organizations, I don't think people's dress should be regulated- AT ALL. 

I agree that students BEHAVIOR should be disciplined.  Using clothing and dress codes however is completely inappropriate towards this goal and is just picking on an "easy out" that is completely subjective and does nothing other than say "Because I said so, that's why."

Controlling dress codes is NOT going to result in adults who know how to deal well with the world, and erasing dress codes is NOT going to result in complete chaos.  The fact that EACH generation challenges and changes the dress codes that came before it should be more than enough proof of this.



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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 10:50:57 AM   
BlueHnS


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Status: offline 		Maybe the debate should be whether it is the purpose of the school environment to allow unrestrained self-expression of students...  any takers?"

Last year before the first month of school had finished a boy walked into the cafeteria and slit another boys throat. That's simply not a form of self expression I'm willing to support. Fortunately, the boy who was injured lived.
 
A couple weeks later a boy brought a gun to school. The vice principal, who is a long time friend of mine, told me even with all the security measures in place, there is still a  chance that the gun might have made it through the front door. The reason it was caught was becuse the boy was late and security was not pressed to get 1000 students into the building before first bell. Again, not a self expression I'm willing to support.

Clearly issues such as safety come into play, but given some of the examples posted in the whole thread (and not just the OP Holly, read up for the student suspended multiple times for not tucking a shirt in) is there another agenda driving the school uniform debate? 

When my oldest was in 5th grade, and there was a uniform policy in that district, one of his classmates was robbed of his sneakers at gunpoint. In some districts the winning argument  to adopt a uniform policy is simply to level the field between the haves and the have nots.
 
But then again, are you really proud of wasting the resources of the school and the school board on this issue to prove the teacher was a moron, rather than having your daughter change her shirt?

I've on more than one occasion gone against the principal, school, school board etc ... And yes, I am proud of each and every one of my victories.
On the flip side when the school board wants something done and can't accomplish it through ordinary channels i.e. the school or it's representatives may be courting trouble if they openly admit to x, y, or z, they call me in to pit bull advocate for them.
When I score a victory I don't make light of it. And when students benefit from my actions and want to say something along the lines of " You showed them! " I am quick to remind them that it wasn't about " showing anyone" it was about doing what I believed was right. I can't say if this has any lasting impact or not, but it does wipe the smirks off thier faces.

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 11:18:34 AM   
perverseangelic


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quote:


"This truly baffles me.  When did it become a mandate that everyone be allowed to "express themselves" in whatever fashion they choose, wherever they choose, whenever they choose?  Especially kids, who are still learning appropriate judgement and don't yet have all the skills to make the best choices.  Maybe the debate should be whether it is the purpose of the school environment to allow unrestrained self-expression of students...  any takers?"


As far as I can tell, we're not advocating free expression "whatever fashion they choose, wherever they choose, whenever they choose." We're advocating younger individuals (in my book especially those in junior high and high school) being free to explore different clothing options so long as they dont' pose a significant risk to others. (I grew up in a fairly gang-heavy area. I can understand putting some, very minor, restrictions on clothing in an effort to discourage gang identification.)

Why -shouldn't- kids be allowed to dress how they want? Because they'll someday have to follow a corporate dress code? Do you honestly think we need training to learn how to do that? And do you honestly think it's a good thing that we'd fall blindly into whatever has been defined as apropriate corporate clothing?

I know I'd rather raise children who question -why- we're told to dress as we do.
I'd rather have a kid who forces the administration to express why they've created the rules they've created, beyond "because we said so." I'd say that kids like this are more likely to ask the same things in the "adult" world, and I think those things need to be addressed. How do you think unspoken dress codes have evolved? I'd put money on it being the people who pushed the envelope in school that started trends away from requiring women to wear dresses and nylons to be considered 'professional.'

By the time someone is in high school, while they might still be developing their own personal set of morals, if they aren't equipped with the skills to make decent choices, I think that we're facing more problems than a kid who thinks it's stupid that she can't dye her hair purple for school.

Yes, I think schools -should- encourage self-expression of students and that restraint on that expression should be incredibly minimal. I think students should be expected to perform to a certain standard academically, but beyond that, I honestly don't think schools have any need or right to dictate student's self-expression. In my book, schools are there to teach. Pure and simple. To impart information that will make the student a better citizen of the world. This doesnt' include dictating appearance, morality, religion or, hell, even gender roles. I think those things should be left to the student, and the student's parents.

There's a lot of talk on this thread about responsibility. I'm a big fan of personal, and parental responsiblity. I think it's a parent's responsibility to raise their children as they think they should be raised, within, of course, allowances for legitimate child abuse, neglect and endangerment. I advocate parental responsibility, NOT school responsiblity. If you don't like what your child is wearing, then it's your responsiblity to give your child consequences, NOT the schools. Why should a school be expected to inforce the standards that idividual parents should define for their own families?



< Message edited by perverseangelic -- 8/30/2006 11:19:07 AM >

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 11:52:17 AM   
BlueHnS


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Status: offline 		There's a lot of talk on this thread about responsibility. I'm a big fan of personal, and parental responsiblity. I think it's a parent's responsibility to raise their children as they think they should be raised, within, of course, allowances for legitimate child abuse, neglect and endangerment. I advocate parental responsibility, NOT school responsiblity. If you don't like what your child is wearing, then it's your responsiblity to give your child consequences, NOT the schools. Why should a school be expected to inforce the standards that idividual parents should define for their own families?


Because the parents don't.
 
The reality of the situation is the parents who get caught up more than the simple proclamation of this or that is unfair, the parents who take the extra step and become involved in actively changing the situation are most generally the parents who have children in school that want to learn. Parents who take an active role in thier childrens education, and more importantly their lives, challenge not only thier child to become a productive member of society, but also challenge the teacher, or anyone else who has a an effect on thier childrens lives, to raise the bar and challenge our children to become better people.
 
It's very easy to say it's the parents responsibility or it's the schools responsibility, or even it's the students responsibility. Unfortunately we live in a society where everything has become path of least resistance.
 
On the whole, society is not about accepting responsibility. We have a problem we take a drink or pop a pill or hide at work or dozens of other things. Yes, I'm aware there are some legitametly ill people and this is not in reference to them. However, when 3/4 of any classroom has to go to the nurses office to get their ritalin so school can be peaceful there's a huge problem.
 
We live in a fast food, bandaid age and unless more individuals step up and not only say yes I'm accountable, but also instill that value into the next generation we will continue this downhill slide.

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 12:16:41 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
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From: Davis, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS

Because the parents don't.
 
The reality of the situation is the parents who get caught up more than the simple proclamation of this or that is unfair, the parents who take the extra step and become involved in actively changing the situation are most generally the parents who have children in school that want to learn. Parents who take an active role in thier childrens education, and more importantly their lives, challenge not only thier child to become a productive member of society, but also challenge the teacher, or anyone else who has a an effect on thier childrens lives, to raise the bar and challenge our children to become better people.
 
It's very easy to say it's the parents responsibility or it's the schools responsibility, or even it's the students responsibility. Unfortunately we live in a society where everything has become path of least resistance.


Agreed, actually, but I don't think this changes anything. It's -still- the parent's repsonsiblity, whether they accept it or not. It is not the school's job to make up for parental failings in this way. In some ways, yeah, I can see that. But because we're so diverse as a people, we can't expcet a school to instill morality that will fit accross the board.

I'm an idealist, at this point in my life. I'll come back to this in ten years and see where I stand, but for now I'm going to comment from the perspective I'm currently at.


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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 2:07:18 PM   
BlueHnS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
Agreed, actually, but I don't think this changes anything. It's -still- the parent's repsonsiblity, whether they accept it or not. It is not the school's job to make up for parental failings in this way. In some ways, yeah, I can see that. But because we're so diverse as a people, we can't expcet a school to instill morality that will fit accross the board.

I'm an idealist, at this point in my life. I'll come back to this in ten years and see where I stand, but for now I'm going to comment from the perspective I'm currently at.


Mayhap I'm being nosey at this point and you are more than welcome to tell me to piss off, but I have a question.
Have you ever tried to recruit parents to be more active in their children's lives? Do you know how heartwrenching it is to see a kid full of hope and promise fall through the cracks because the only expectaion of them is that they will become a product of thier enviornmet? Even worse to hear parents give up claiming they've lost thier child to the childs peers and don't expect  to see the child live to graduate? I wish I were making this bleak picture up, but I'm not.
So my question to you is ...
While it is the parents responsibility what do you do if they fail to accept it? Do you say not my kid? Do you try harder? Do you step up and hope that your own limited contact in some way positevly affects a child already given up on?  Ideals will only carry one so far. What do you do?

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 2:19:26 PM   
LotusSong


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Status: offline 		I say yes.  The kids look like slobs these days. They need to get in touch with the real world.

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 2:42:01 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
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From: Davis, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS
Mayhap I'm being nosey at this point and you are more than welcome to tell me to piss off, but I have a question.
Have you ever tried to recruit parents to be more active in their children's lives? Do you know how heartwrenching it is to see a kid full of hope and promise fall through the cracks because the only expectaion of them is that they will become a product of thier enviornmet? Even worse to hear parents give up claiming they've lost thier child to the childs peers and don't expect  to see the child live to graduate? I wish I were making this bleak picture up, but I'm not.


Truthfully? Yes, both in HS, in college and through the church I used to be a part of. I'm not saying that we should ignore children who's parents are ignoring them.

I don't think that saying that institutions shouldn't force one system on a student is advocating that we abandon kids all together in favor of their families. I don't quite see the connection between opposing school dress codes and "moral standards" and letting kids fall through the cracks, nor do I see how the belief that religous institution and the like is the province of the family and not the school translates into totally abandoing children.

I'm -not- saying that school shouldn't strive to better its students, nor that it shouldn't provide an atmosphere that encourages personal growth in the abscence of one in the home. I -am- saying that I do believe that in no circumstance should a school attempt to force a religious or moral system on the student. Similarly, I think that encrouaging students to express themselves, in their dress and the work they produce, has very little in the way of -negative- effects and a -lot- in the way of positive ones.

I know parents don't always do what they're supposed to do. Much as I hate it, I know it happens every day. Yes, I think schools should encourage kids to succeed in the abscence of parental influcence, but I don't think that encouraging someone to go to college, and providing resources to make that possible is the same as requiring kids shirts to be tucked in or forcing them to...I dunno...make a sacrifice to Loki at the begining of a football game.

quote:


So my question to you is ...
While it is the parents responsibility what do you do if they fail to accept it? Do you say not my kid? Do you try harder? Do you step up and hope that your own limited contact in some way positevly affects a child already given up on?  Ideals will only carry one so far. What do you do?

At this point, I don't know. I think that afterschool peer mentoring programs are wonderful, but only if the kids go. Personally, I volunteer with Planned Parenthood to expand safe sex literacy and get accurate information out there.

I dunno if I explained well above, but I was trying to express where the line between parents responsiblities and what schools should do is, at least in my mind.

Frankly, I think that prospective parents should be required to pass a basic exam before haing children, but that's a very unpopular veiw.

(also, I'll answer any question I get as best as I can. I'm offering some pretty strident opinions, I should be able to stand up for them.)


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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 5:33:15 PM   
BlueHnS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
I'm -not- saying that school shouldn't strive to better its students, nor that it shouldn't provide an atmosphere that encourages personal growth in the abscence of one in the home. I -am- saying that I do believe that in no circumstance should a school attempt to force a religious or moral system on the student. Similarly, I think that encrouaging students to express themselves, in their dress and the work they produce, has very little in the way of -negative- effects and a -lot- in the way of positive ones. 

 
I agree on the religous beliefs. Religon is a personal choice. I can also say with 100% certainty that when the boys of any football team my son has played, be it school or semi- pro, before the huddle breaks the Lord's Prayer had been said.
I do think the school has the right to have a standard of moral values. While my example of the child slitting his classmates throat in the cafeteria was admittedly an extreme one, the right to slit someones throat is not acceptable. I've yet to meet anyone who would disagree with that. Then we come to the grey areas.  Do they have the right to make students wear ID's, Do they have the right to make them have a dress code of any sort? Do they have the right to deny education if a student is habitually dismissive to the classroom.
I think one of the things that is often forgotten is that it's the active parents who set the standard. I can't think of a single school district that is empowered to make these decisions behind closed doors. Do all of the decisions make sense? Absolutely not.
 
quote:


I dunno if I explained well above, but I was trying to express where the line between parents responsiblities and what schools should do is, at least in my mind.

Frankly, I think that prospective parents should be required to pass a basic exam before haing children, but that's a very unpopular veiw.


I absolutely agree that there are parental and school responsibilities. And I think parents need to accept more responsibility. However there is no way to "make them". There's also alot of grey area. My children have learned more about relationships on the playground than I could ever teach them at home. It's not because I don't try to instill the proper values. It's because the playground has practical application.
 
And I'm 100% with you that people should have to have some basic test/class/something to have children. But then it comes back to infringing on personal rights.

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/30/2006 9:52:21 PM   
truesub4u


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Well being a mom with 2 teenage gals in jr high and high.. I have refused body alterations. No tats.. no lips.. tongue.. naval peircings... I've drawn the line. I control the make up...(even if they go down roadd and change it.. I tell them they better not let me see it...and you never know when I might get called to the school or drop by ro pick you up) So yes.. I give some leave way on the clothes. My girls are going thru the goth/vamp/punk stages. I do my best to make sure their clothes don't look sloppy. Ripped I won't even put up with. Nor too baggy.  But I don't want them in skin tight or hip huggers either.

And do I feel proud the school spent 45 mins using resources and etc... because the teacher was a moron.. ya damn skippy I am. I might of let it pass if he didn't call me a dumb broad who lets her kids run the house. This asshole knew NOT anything of me.. we had never met...and was NOT a teacher of anyone of my girls. Bottom line... he picked my daughter's t-shirt out.. because he thought it was a pentagram... to him...a symbol of blood sacrifice and murder.. and it offended him. Ok.. I took that into account... but when tried to explain to him what it was....(A heartagram)..and a rock n roll t-shirt.. he went off on me... and all my defenses went into over drive.

Soemtimes I think having uniforms in school... even public schools... would cut down on things such as I went thru... but I have kids.. not robots... and they need to learn rules.. regulations... in all ways. The school house is for teaching. And sometimes.. even the beauracrats need some more schooling too. And they day we all learned something... my daughter and I learned that this teacher was a moron.... the principle learned that the school board was actually useful for a change.. and they all learned they came close to violating a childs right in dress... speach...religion....(in the course of this it was brought out that my daughter is wiccan....and was told she could not wear nothing at all concerning wiccan to school.... not even the pentagram necklace.) Well when the courts got done with it... (News got hold of it from the school board and it ended up in court)... the judge agreed with the students...

So yes... their are times to stand. It wasn't a major victory.  No one walked out feeling "Proud"... but they did walk out of that court room knowing... they do have right....and are intitled to stand up for them. IF IT"S DONE CORRECTLY.

< Message edited by truesub4u -- 8/30/2006 9:53:35 PM >

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RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/31/2006 2:49:01 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
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Status: offline 		New and returning student orientation last night. One of our more often dress code violation girls sat and listened to the new rules of the school - which include MUCH more than simply a dress code. As we walked the students down the hall - yep...in line... yep... it's high school... to meet back up with their parents who were in a "come to jesus meeting" themselves, she sidled up to me, nudged me and said "Ms S... you all got it goin' ON this year!!!" I smiled and said "seems so, doesn't it? How do you feel about that?"

Her response? The student we teachers might have voted "most likely to be sent home for wearing street clothes"?

"Thank god! I never believed any of y'all last year, so I just kept on doin' what I was doin' waiting for SOMEONE to make EVERYONE follow the rules."

The girl behind her: "Yea... my last school never made us do nothin! It was crazy all the time! This is goin' to be good!!"

When we got in to the parents' meeting, the principal was just finishing up telling the parents about the new dress code (which, by the way, include white, blue or  black tennis shoes with NO contrasting colors on them. Even the Nike Swoosh or the New Balance N can not be a different color. Of all the things we are saying their kids must do, this is the costliest to the parents, and so will probably be a hardship to many) and as a group - no one sitting down that I could see, she received a standing ovation.

This just might turn out to be a very good year.

Course, we don't have kids going through a goth stage at our school. They're too busy dealing with the dealers and gangs and the deaths of the friends and relatives in their neighborhoods to even be bothered with that.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 8/31/2006 2:54:25 AM >

(in reply to truesub4u)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/31/2006 5:40:52 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"On the whole, society is not about accepting responsibility. We have a problem we take a drink or pop a pill or hide at work or dozens of other things. Yes, I'm aware there are some legitametly ill people and this is not in reference to them. However, when 3/4 of any classroom has to go to the nurses office to get their ritalin so school can be peaceful there's a huge problem."
 
.....if this is the context american schools are operating in, then there is a problem that can't be dealt with simply by making children follow a set of rules. Surely instituting a dress code as extreme as some of the examples posted in this thread is just another panacea. The logic going something like 'lil johnny may have a knife, but if we make him tuck his shirt in then maybe he'll reform'.........except in practise it doesnt work like that. Instead a dress code is used to single out the rebellious, the kids on the edge, the non-conformists and the free-thinkers. Conformity does not equal safety.
The solution to armed children is not to make them wear the same type of shirt as everyone else, but must lie in greater society.

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/31/2006 1:14:22 PM   
BlueHnS


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra
When we got in to the parents' meeting, the principal was just finishing up telling the parents about the new dress code (which, by the way, include white, blue or  black tennis shoes with NO contrasting colors on them. Even the Nike Swoosh or the New Balance N can not be a different color. Of all the things we are saying their kids must do, this is the costliest to the parents, and so will probably be a hardship to many) and as a group - no one sitting down that I could see, she received a standing ovation.

juliet


I've found that on the whole parents who complain about the cost of adhering to a dress code are just barking to be heard. The reality is people are aware thier child will be needing school clothes of some sort and  most plan accordingly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
The logic going something like 'lil johnny may have a knife, but if we make him tuck his shirt in then maybe he'll reform'.........except in practise it doesnt work like that. Instead a dress code is used to single out the rebellious, the kids on the edge, the non-conformists and the free-thinkers. Conformity does not equal safety.


I would offer that if one's rebellion, non-conformity and free-thinking is contingent on how one is dressed then they are probably not as rebellious, non-conformist, or free thinking as they would like to appear.
And no, conformity does not equal saftey.


_____________________________

Questions are dangerous, for they have answers. ~ Kushiel's Dart
I think I'm going to get off. ~ The Poet

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/31/2006 1:45:42 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS
I've found that on the whole parents who complain about the cost of adhering to a dress code are just barking to be heard. The reality is people are aware thier child will be needing school clothes of some sort and  most plan accordingly.

But being told what to buy so specifically is ridiculous IMO, and indeed a hardship on many families. 

quote:


I would offer that if one's rebellion, non-conformity and free-thinking is contingent on how one is dressed then they are probably not as rebellious, non-conformist, or free thinking as they would like to appear.
And no, conformity does not equal saftey.

I don't think anyone is saying that non-conformity is CONTINGENT on having or not having a dress code.  However, it is an example of free-thinking and shutting it off for no effective or logical reason sends a very clear message that what students SHOULD do is conform.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to BlueHnS)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: 128 students suspended at Ind. school - 8/31/2006 2:30:40 PM   
BlueHnS


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
But being told what to buy so specifically is ridiculous IMO, and indeed a hardship on many families. 


I don't deny that some specifications are utterly rediculous, such as the single color of tennis shoes. I will admit they are at times a pain in the ass to locate, however they are priced no differently than sneakers that come with 2 or 3 or 31 colors.
Furthermore, unless the dress code stipulates that you must buy a specific brand of designer pants that is $75.00 it is in reality much cheaper to buy uniforms.
My students pants ranged from $7.50 to $15.00, comprable regular jeans started at $19.99. I absolutely refuse to spend more than $50.00 on a pair of shoes my child will outgrown in a few months. I generally spend $30.00 to $40.00. Underwear, socks, undershirts/bras ... you gotta buy them anyways. And here's the good news. If you are really low income and your student goes to a uniform school, every county I have lived in has made funds available for uniform purchases.

quote:


I don't think anyone is saying that non-conformity is CONTINGENT on having or not having a dress code.  However, it is an example of free-thinking and shutting it off for no effective or logical reason sends a very clear message that what students SHOULD do is conform.


I SHOULD probably do a great many things because society says I should. Do I? Hell no! 
For example ... I don't answer my phone unless I want to talk to the caller, even though this does piss a great many individuals off. It's my phone, for my convience. It's not a leash.  
Rebels, non-conformists and free thinkers generally look at several questions before making an action, be it conscious or not. What SHOULD I do? What COULD I do?  What are the ramifications of my actions? What WILL I do? They then, on the most part, take action with full knowledge of the potential impact said action will have. 


_____________________________

Questions are dangerous, for they have answers. ~ Kushiel's Dart
I think I'm going to get off. ~ The Poet

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 80
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