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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 10:59:34 AM

liljoy

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Mercnbeth,
That was so beautiful it brought a tear to my eye. Thanks for sharing this with us

lil_joy

edited to add that's how i always thought it should be like

< Message edited by liljoy -- 8/31/2006 11:09:09 AM >

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 11:29:59 AM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead
And I do not need YOUR approval to say so-it's simply a matter of record.

I don't recall stating that you did, but the coup is cute, nonetheless.

I think I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to say. Needless to say, your "matter of record" and mine contain disparities, no doubt in context to who they were collected from, where and how.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 12:25:45 PM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Amayos, I've been in the scene for 18 years too but,... I just don't matter I guess.
Lets let the new people say how things should be done.

I read you. But honestly, age, awards and credentials mean little—to me, at least. I would suggest to those who like to label other submissives negatively as doormats or cowards or whatever other subversive term they attempt to make stick consider how "slave" is not the most flattering of connotations either, when considered literally, figuratively, culturally or perusing its neighboring synonyms. Still, many embrace the idea literally—either by nature or choice—and find fulfillment in being just that, or in making one of others.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 12:34:17 PM

raiken

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[quote]ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

But why would he take it from her? Why would he want to? Why not put it away for her in case, just in case the day ever comes that she no longer feels that being a slave is right for her? Where does she go then? No more career advancement, no home to take her kids to, no money, nothing.

Marie,
There is no "taking it from her", it was gift. Actually, the reality is these material the material things that people seem to be so focused upon weren't a consideration. The best description of them, the cars, money, etcetera; are best described as "baggage". Yes, beth came to me with "baggage" as I had mine when I met her. Together we now have collective "baggage", collective "stuff" we've gathered in the years spent together. Often we shake our heads and wonder how and why, originating from an apartment of 750 square feet we've managed 3 1/2 years later to collect enough stuff to fill a huge home. Who does it belong to? Us, even if it is only in my name.

But it's the "just in case" part of your question that may be the missing piece of the puzzle. Our goal and plans before formalizing our relationship was focused on success not failure. Our "just in case" didn't focus on our relationship failing. Our "just in case" was about outside influences over which we had no control. Some have occurred such as, rebounding residential replicants, and older parents needing care. Because we discussed them we were ready. Some haven't occurred such as an incapacitating illness of either of us or dramatic household income change; but we have discussed and have plans for that too. Even the most traumatic, a death of one of us has a 'plan for success'. Our legalizing our relationship in the eyes of the government in a few weeks is the final part of that planning.

Notice that one thing isn't planned for, a change in the attitude or in the foundation of our relationship. If you don't have that confidence and trust in the other individual you are right you can't give all to another. Regardless of who has the title of the houses, cars, or other material items, what is any of it worth without that trust? We didn't give our personal balance sheet any consideration when we started out, I confidently speak for both of us, its not in consideration now.

If beth announces to me she no longer "feels like being a slave", I'd suspect she developed a brain tumor affecting her thought process. Same applies for me waking up not feeling like being a Master. The process before giving that level of commitment to each other and the trust that every eventuality was considered provides that level of confidence in both our "feelings".

The bottom line is neither of us "took" anything from the other. Each of us gave all to us. There is no material possession considered in those two sentences.

Lastly, the only "doormats" I own are in front of our doors. In case of earthquake, fire, oncoming tsunami, or pending meteor the only possession I'd value enough to run back into the house to get would be beth. Once she was out, we'd watch the world end around us naked on the front lawn in each others arms. When we die, all that baggage will be sold by our replicants at a yard sale anyway. If any part of us exists beyond our last breath its not going to be something we bought. Is this a "practical" way for either of us to live in the context of 2006 reality? NOPE, but we're having fun and enjoying the hell out of every day we live together in this manner.

Ah...this...is beautifully expressed...to me, heart felt expressions like this are what gives some of us inspiration and continued hope. i feel the gratefulness and devotion that shine through in your writing. Thank you for posting this, i feel that you both are whole and complete complements of each other, above and beyond the attributes of Master and slave dynamic. In fact, i feel this way most of the time after i read what either of you have to share in your thoughts. *smile

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 12:34:21 PM

liljoy

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Amayos,
i just wanted to say thanks for answering my questions toward you without verbal attacks even though i didn't agree with Your views. i do so enjoy getting the chance to understand anothers way of looking at things. That's why i ask questions.
lil_joy

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 12:39:56 PM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

Amayos,
i just wanted to say thanks for answering my questions toward you without verbal attacks even though i didn't agree with Your views. i do so enjoy getting the chance to understand anothers way of looking at things. That's why i ask questions.
lil_joy

And let me say that people like you make posting on these boards worthwhile. For though we may disagree, we can carry on in a civil discourse and perhaps learn a thing or two without being consistently negative, abrasive or broadly insulting.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 12:45:38 PM

Sunshine119

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If beth announces to me she no longer "feels like being a slave", I'd suspect she developed a brain tumor affecting her thought process. Same applies for me waking up not feeling like being a Master. The process before giving that level of commitment to each other and the trust that every eventuality was considered provides that level of confidence in both our "feelings".

Merc,

In a perfect world (and a few years ago), I would have fully agreed with you. However, people DO develop brain tumors. Maybe not terminal ones. Might change their personality such that either you or she may want to terminate the relationship. What happens then? What happens if one of you does develop a chemical imbalance that has the same effect but, since you are an adult, you don't choose to get treated. Even with a "slave agreement", no doctor in the world would treat her the way you want her to be treated without her permission. Or vice versa. What if you are the one to develop a chemical imbalance and decide to discard her?

Now, I applaud you for getting married so that she is protected under the law (and shucks, I'm just happy for you anyway), and the scenarios painted above, I agree are not likely to happen.....but they DO happen.

I don't expect to ever be in another relationship in my life (besides my current one), even if my Dom dies of a heart attack tomorrow, but, everything will always be in both of our names. Why? Because I was there once before, trusted completely and know that s**t happens, even to those least expected.

Sunshine

_____________________________

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 12:47:11 PM

onestandingstill

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I actually thought poor O was released as they'd done all they wanted to her to the point she was boring to them. I don't think it had to do with being too compliant as much as it had to do with the guys desiring new meat they could mark up. I figured these guys were only using her to amuse themselves with all along. Poor O thought they cared about her, when all they really wanted was a blow up doll with a heart beat as far as caring about her or having to take care of her needs. It was a book about guys being the selfish self centered people a lot of them are and O's mistake of making a commitment to people who made no commitment back to her.

For me pretty much the same was true. Once the only Dom I was owned by decided the newness had worn off after the first 6 months & he didn't have to try any more. The whole notion he loved my spirit and strength turned into him expecting me to walk around like an unfeeling robot not considering my needs one bit. I hung on much like O for about 10 months past the point I felt I was considered in our relationship hoping the person who loved me, nurtured me, and valued me would come back. It was hard accepting I didn't count. Even harder to leave. I almost like O even seriously considered suicide over this heart ache caused by my neglect.

I liked the book, but hated how they used O up and then threw her out like old garbage after she gave her whole life to them.

I even made a term for guys like that. Mental Sadist is the word. They are most excited and feeling powerful when they crush you to your core in cold selfish ways. Their big get off comes from emotionally hurting you. That cuts deeper than any whip in my opinion ever could. Too bad you don't see most of them coming till they have you trapped in the snare.

Just FYI, no I don't think all or even most Doms are like this. Just that a lot are indeed this rotten.
Suzanne

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 12:50:20 PM

liljoy

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aww thanks. These boards are a good source for me to learn about things and thoughts i might not see in my daily dealings. That is why i'm here. So i see little value in being negative, abrasive or insulting. That would be too much like biting the hand that feeds me in my opinion.
lil_joy

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

And let me say that people like you make posting on these boards worthwhile. For though we may disagree, we can carry on in a civil discourse and perhaps learn a thing or two without being consistently negative, abrasive or broadly insulting.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:02:22 PM

onestandingstill

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

General reply:

Sometimes a slave is just a wayward lost soul in need of an identity and a place to live.

If I were a Master, Id prefer a slave who already has it all, but is willing to give it all up in order to serve out of pure need to serve, not out of neediness.

Sure, you hear a lot of slaves who have nothing to their name but a T shirt, say I give it all to my master even the dollar bill I have left in my pocket. What Id really love to see is an established career woman, home owner, with a Mercedes in her driveway, turn it all over to a master, in the name of pure slavery. Now THAT would be a slave.

I have seen it happen to a friend of mine. I've also seen the bastard take it all away from her and put her out not only broke but with 30,000.00 of bills in her name he spent she had to repay. This poor friend of mine gave everything to this Dom she'd worked for in her life to only have him squander all her hard earned financial Independence. It's been 4 years since she left him & she's not even close to being back to half as secure and debt free as she was then. His reason for deciding to do this was he found someone younger and thinner to be with instead of her.
I know for me I will not give all my money to a Dom, I will not give up my own place till I am ready to do so. Being submissive does not mean I will be willingly used for my finances again. My condition didn't cost me too much as I'd left my ex husband three years ago with only $40 in my pocket. In three years I didn't have that big of a nest egg built up to plunder through.
I think your naive to think this isn't very common in our lifestyle. It's VERY common from the stories I've heard indeed.
Suzanne

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:15:00 PM

raiken

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quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

General reply:

Sometimes a slave is just a wayward lost soul in need of an identity and a place to live.

If I were a Master, Id prefer a slave who already has it all, but is willing to give it all up in order to serve out of pure need to serve, not out of neediness.

Sure, you hear a lot of slaves who have nothing to their name but a T shirt, say I give it all to my master even the dollar bill I have left in my pocket. What Id really love to see is an established career woman, home owner, with a Mercedes in her driveway, turn it all over to a master, in the name of pure slavery. Now THAT would be a slave.

I have seen it happen to a friend of mine. I've also seen the bastard take it all away from her and put her out not only broke but with 30,000.00 of bills in her name he spent she had to repay. This poor friend of mine gave everything to this Dom she'd worked for in her life to only have him squander all her hard earned financial Independence. It's been 4 years since she left him & she's not even close to being back to half as secure and debt free as she was then. His reason for deciding to do this was he found someone younger and thinner to be with instead of her.
I know for me I will not give all my money to a Dom, I will not give up my own place till I am ready to do so. Being submissive does not mean I will be willingly used for my finances again. My condition didn't cost me too much as I'd left my ex husband three years ago with only $40 in my pocket. In three years I didn't have that big of a nest egg built up to plunder through.
I think your naive to think this isn't very common in our lifestyle. It's VERY common from the stories I've heard indeed.
Suzanne

i feel for a person that this happens to It happens to the best and worst of us in every walk of life and lifestyle. People rip people off with little to no regard for anything else. It is a risk, and some risks pan out and others flop miserably. All we can do is become very good at learning how to make wise choices and descisions for ourselves when choosing a partner. The rest is unknown for no one can predict the future. However, we can become good at planning ahead and considering the many possibilities that may have a chance of occuring. This is an area where i caution others i know who are making these types of life changing descisions, to remember that reality based living as far as self preservation, should always be a first consideration, while fantasy comes in as a close second.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:16:01 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

What Id really love to see is an established career woman, home owner, with a Mercedes in her driveway, turn it all over to a master, in the name of pure slavery. Now THAT would be a slave.

I did not see this post earlier. It does happen, as Onestandingstill said. It happens reasonably and responsibly, and it happens irresponsibly and destructively. Master/slave relationships can indeed be damaging, if not conducted with the best interest of both in mind (just like any type of relationship).

As for the scenario you laid out - I have a career. I own my own home. I have a nice car but not a Mercedes. Speaking for myself, I would not think twice about letting go of all it of, to move into Master's home and serve him day in and day out under his roof. The importance of my service to him far exceeds any materialistic treasures. I am marketable. I can always find work. Finding another Master as perfect for me as he is, is a different story entirely.

I do not see, however, how giving up money and intangible items truly makes one a slave. Giving over one's heart, body, and mind is what constitutes submission in the form of slavery, as I see it.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:19:41 PM

onestandingstill

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I have to agree with MrD. Sometimes, a slave is hand selected because they have incredible potential... but they don't have the discipline to submit completely. Sometimes in order to find themselves, they have to have their will s broken so they can see what they are capable of.
Not everyone breaks their slaves. some of us change them gradually, rather than the drastic restructuring. But no matter what, we always retrain them to our specific desires. Hand selected or not, a slave changes to sit their Master or Mistress AFTER the selection and service begins.

DV

I think a Dom/Domme accepting a sub as they are and then after the sub belongs to you you try to squash who they are and make them into what you envisioned they could be is VERY wrong. If the sub is not acceptable as they are to say you accept them, but in essence you don't, is bad medicine to pour in the mix. It's like they take them as a challenge for their ego to remodel the sub identity to suit them like the sub is nothing more than a trained lab rat to them. I say don't play with us like that. Speak your real wants and desires up front. For me I think it is horrendous and hurtful to do so after you accept them as yours and they are attached to you. How do expect to be respected and trusted when you have an underlying hidden agenda???
For Doms who up front tell subs they are going to make the sub lose all the parts of their selves they love and are proud of then that's a different story. If a sub or slave enters into this willingly than there's no foul here. You discuss you want a blow up doll who's animated and you get one then that's OK cause the girl knows on what ground she stands. That's a very different thing in my opinion.
I personally feel it's easier to find someone who thinks along the lines you want rather than annihilating a persons true identity and making them have to live against their nature for you. I just don't see a relationship where I'm not me nor am I sure of your intentions at all as something emotionally healthy for me.
Suzanne

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:28:01 PM

NJSubGirl

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ownedgirlie, good points!

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:31:47 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

But why would he take it from her? Why would he want to? Why not put it away for her in case, just in case the day ever comes that she no longer feels that being a slave is right for her? Where does she go then? No more career advancement, no home to take her kids to, no money, nothing.

Marie,
There is no "taking it from her", it was gift. Actually, the reality is these material the material things that people seem to be so focused upon weren't a consideration. The best description of them, the cars, money, etcetera; are best described as "baggage". Yes, beth came to me with "baggage" as I had mine when I met her. Together we now have collective "baggage", collective "stuff" we've gathered in the years spent together. Often we shake our heads and wonder how and why, originating from an apartment of 750 square feet we've managed 3 1/2 years later to collect enough stuff to fill a huge home. Who does it belong to? Us, even if it is only in my name.

But it's the "just in case" part of your question that may be the missing piece of the puzzle. Our goal and plans before formalizing our relationship was focused on success not failure. Our "just in case" didn't focus on our relationship failing. Our "just in case" was about outside influences over which we had no control. Some have occurred such as, rebounding residential replicants, and older parents needing care. Because we discussed them we were ready. Some haven't occurred such as an incapacitating illness of either of us or dramatic household income change; but we have discussed and have plans for that too. Even the most traumatic, a death of one of us has a 'plan for success'. Our legalizing our relationship in the eyes of the government in a few weeks is the final part of that planning.

Notice that one thing isn't planned for, a change in the attitude or in the foundation of our relationship. If you don't have that confidence and trust in the other individual you are right you can't give all to another. Regardless of who has the title of the houses, cars, or other material items, what is any of it worth without that trust? We didn't give our personal balance sheet any consideration when we started out, I confidently speak for both of us, its not in consideration now.

If beth announces to me she no longer "feels like being a slave", I'd suspect she developed a brain tumor affecting her thought process. Same applies for me waking up not feeling like being a Master. The process before giving that level of commitment to each other and the trust that every eventuality was considered provides that level of confidence in both our "feelings".

The bottom line is neither of us "took" anything from the other. Each of us gave all to us. There is no material possession considered in those two sentences.

Lastly, the only "doormats" I own are in front of our doors. In case of earthquake, fire, oncoming tsunami, or pending meteor the only possession I'd value enough to run back into the house to get would be beth. Once she was out, we'd watch the world end around us naked on the front lawn in each others arms. When we die, all that baggage will be sold by our replicants at a yard sale anyway. If any part of us exists beyond our last breath its not going to be something we bought. Is this a "practical" way for either of us to live in the context of 2006 reality? NOPE, but we're having fun and enjoying the hell out of every day we live together in this manner.

I kinda feel like you took my valid concerns of survival (especially survival with children) and almost implied that I am more concerned with material possesions than I am with the value and meaning of love and trust. Im sure you didnt mean to do that.

Im happy for your both on your impending marriage and I wish you both the best. But lets not try to ride the wave of a fairy tale and suggest that reality doesnt sometimes happen. Thats why we have IRA's and think about how we're going to eat in our old age, no? My concern is synonymous with that. Its not about planning for failure. Its not about material possessions. Its the fact that if you really do have love and trust and all that other happy warm and fuzzy stuff, that a Master wouldnt even begin to think about the suggestion that his most valued possesion (his slave) sign her material possessions over to him. This by the way is no better than a gold-digging vanilla whore who wants to marry a doctor because they have moeny. I am not speaking about you personally. I am speaking about something that can and does happen. And I think in wiitwd it sometimes makes victims out of otherwise naive people. On BOTH ends. When a slave (unmarried with no rights) signs over her home, savings account and everything she has, it leaves him/her in a position where their choice is now removed, possibly for the rest of their lives. That is what I was speaking about. Though, I probably wasnt clear enough. You are getting married. And the world through rose colored glasses is a beautiful thing when you're wearing them. But if you remove them and look to your left and look to your right, you will see victims of what it is I am refering to.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 8/31/2006 1:32:33 PM >

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:35:35 PM

onestandingstill

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Warning, the following is just food for thought (and not a joke. Well, not really a joke. I just thought it would help get the point across, maybe, that "doormat" isn't always bad). I had no trouble understanding what amayos said. I didn't think it was a difficult concept.

Here's a question for those who think 'doormat' is always a bad thing: *Was Jesus a "doormat"?

Maybe ya'll can chew on that for awhile...

- Susan

Hell no Jesus was not a doormat. When others tried to make him comply with what they thought he was capable of vs what he thought his path was, he'd politely explain to them how closed minded they were. He'd give them some insight into why he proceeded in his own fashion even though it made things harder for him. If he was the doormat theory you question here he'd have saved himself from the death on the cross and defied Herod & Pontious Pilate. He followed the path his Father wished him to follow, but even then he checked with his Dad from time to time when things got rough to re-affirm his position was what was required of him.
Of course this is only my opinion & I've heard repeatedly my religious views are not the common ones.
Suzanne

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:37:27 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NJSubGirl

ownedgirlie, good points!

Thank you NJSubGirl :)

It really boils down to not making such decisions lightly, or in an uninformed manner. Submission must be given time to grow, develop, and deepen. I would not have realized that conclusion about myself my the early days of belonging to him.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:43:03 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

What Id really love to see is an established career woman, home owner, with a Mercedes in her driveway, turn it all over to a master, in the name of pure slavery. Now THAT would be a slave.

I did not see this post earlier. It does happen, as Onestandingstill said. It happens reasonably and responsibly, and it happens irresponsibly and destructively. Master/slave relationships can indeed be damaging, if not conducted with the best interest of both in mind (just like any type of relationship).

As for the scenario you laid out - I have a career. I own my own home. I have a nice car but not a Mercedes. Speaking for myself, I would not think twice about letting go of all it of, to move into Master's home and serve him day in and day out under his roof. The importance of my service to him far exceeds any materialistic treasures. I am marketable. I can always find work. Finding another Master as perfect for me as he is, is a different story entirely.

I do not see, however, how giving up money and intangible items truly makes one a slave. Giving over one's heart, body, and mind is what constitutes submission in the form of slavery, as I see it.

I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly. And thats exactly why the $$ shouldnt matter.

As far as giving it all to someone else. To do so, in my particular case would be an act of sheer carelessness, and complete irresponsibility to the child Im responsible for.

Money is a necessary evil. Its dirty. But its necessary. Id give it to a friend, Id give it to my child, Id give it to loved one if they had none of their own. I would never give it up in the name of slavery.

Love is love. trust is trust, commitment is commitment, devotion is devotion. When ya die, its all you can leave behind; what you gave to someone from your heart. If I need someone's bank account to devote myself to them, then Im a piece of shit. And vice versa.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:49:45 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

General reply:

Sometimes a slave is just a wayward lost soul in need of an identity and a place to live.

If I were a Master, Id prefer a slave who already has it all, but is willing to give it all up in order to serve out of pure need to serve, not out of neediness.

Sure, you hear a lot of slaves who have nothing to their name but a T shirt, say I give it all to my master even the dollar bill I have left in my pocket. What Id really love to see is an established career woman, home owner, with a Mercedes in her driveway, turn it all over to a master, in the name of pure slavery. Now THAT would be a slave.

I have seen it happen to a friend of mine. I've also seen the bastard take it all away from her and put her out not only broke but with 30,000.00 of bills in her name he spent she had to repay. This poor friend of mine gave everything to this Dom she'd worked for in her life to only have him squander all her hard earned financial Independence. It's been 4 years since she left him & she's not even close to being back to half as secure and debt free as she was then. His reason for deciding to do this was he found someone younger and thinner to be with instead of her.
I know for me I will not give all my money to a Dom, I will not give up my own place till I am ready to do so. Being submissive does not mean I will be willingly used for my finances again. My condition didn't cost me too much as I'd left my ex husband three years ago with only $40 in my pocket. In three years I didn't have that big of a nest egg built up to plunder through.
I think your naive to think this isn't very common in our lifestyle. It's VERY common from the stories I've heard indeed.
Suzanne

Yes, Ive seen it as well, though never fallen victim to it myself. I dont mean to take anything away from the positive relationships here. But the way I feel is that my submission should have nothing to do with money. And from the other side....I would not choose a Master based on his possessions. I would, however, choose him based on his motivations.

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RE: too compliant? - 8/31/2006 1:55:34 PM

ownedgirlie

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Marie, You speak words that make perfect sense for someone in your position - a mother with a child to care for, and, as far as I understand, not in a current circumstance where there is an owner above you.

What I speak of is situation-dependent in many ways. If I were unowned, I would not be so verbal in advertising a willingness to give up all my money and possessions for another. Particularly since that "other" is not someone who existed for me yet. This is why I emphasize to know your Master. Know who you are committing yourself to. Know your situation (I am using "your" in the general sense here).

Apologies to liljoy if we have diverted off topic. Moving in with a Master is indeed a form of compliancy, but not the only form. In my case, not living with him is part of my compliancy.

(in reply to marieToo)

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Post #: 140