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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 6:16:33 AM

SusanofO

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amayos: You're welcome.

- Susan

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 6:37:20 AM

LotusSong

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Perhaps a better word than "forced" would be "suprise"... some people like the unexpected. In this case..absolute trust would have to be placed in the dominant party and their knowledge of the submissive to begin with.

Ahh another premise..forced vs surprised.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 10:02:49 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

marie: Or - maybe it would have to be a big surprise one had agreed to earlier, not knowing when or where it might happen.
Of course, a submissive would have to agree to this "surprise" and not knowing when or maybe even how, it would take place. Some people, I imagine don't want to do that.

Susan:

Or maybe this planned "surprise attack" would add more feeling of authenticity to it. But then after a few seconds, I would think you'd just know it was your dominant doing what you had planned to do with him. You and I are focused on the rape thing in what we are refering to. But I was also rethinking the OP--Can something really be force if the person wants it. (heh, this reminds me of Noah's thread on the philosophy of fantasy)

I really think Lotus' question, in my mind anyway, is really a 'miniature', of the whole "who is really in control" question.

If a person consents to having no consent, they have chosen to have no choice. So they actually have made a choice....the only choice that matters in a base kind of way ....the choice that they dont want a choice.

Therefore, in the way that my brain works, anything the dominant party does to/with the submissive party, even something that the submissive party doesnt want, has already been established as the choice of the submissive party.

To put it in other words (or complicate, if I dont say this correctly). If someone consents to being 'forced' to do something, then it cannot actually be force, simply based on the fact that they've given their consent to be forced. Its sort of an oxymoronical thing, to me. The term thats often thrown around for what im trying to explain my thoughts on , is consentual non-consent.

If you consent to having no consent.....youve already given the very consent that you now call 'non consent'. Its laughable to me that we even have such a notion that we call something consentual non consent.   This to me is perhaps the most absolute epitome example of oxymoron. To me, the word consent is one of those words that isnt subjective, like "sane" and "safe" are. You either consent to having no consent to something or you dont.

So by virtue of the meaning of the word "Force", and the meaning of the word "want" in the OP's question, the hypothetical person wants to be forced, And given the fact that theyve already given their consent to be 'forced', I would have to say the answer to the OP's question  is a resounding no.

Baseline for me...and I know I'll get jumped on for this, but this question gave birth to my theory, that at the end of the day, We aren't slaves to another's will, we're slaves to our own desires.  We may love the person we submit to enough to submit to it all, but we are still submitting because we want to submit to anothers control, not because they want it.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 9/1/2006 10:10:35 AM >

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 10:10:53 AM

Homestead

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Marie, I have long realized that desire is the chain. It merely has to be the sort that matches my locks.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 10:41:21 AM

SusanofO

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marie: Excuse me, but do you want to have any fun at all? Can't we just pretend, then, that despite the obvious "draw-backs" it might be interesting and fun anyway? Or, at least - stimulating? I was just starting to to look foward to a good forced-rape scenario!

(yes, I am teasing you)...despite all of this - I remain committed to getting lost in the "fakery" of the moment entirely - I plan to enjoy it (or at least react with vigor) completely - every last false moment of it - when and if it happens to me. I will moan, and scream and kick, and resist so hard the other person may just call up the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and request I be put on next year's nominees list as best actress. I am going to try to be "into it" with every fiber of my being.

I actually can picture this working. I've read about it happening and where everyone involved seemed satisfied with the outcome. I think that it could be set up to be extremely surprising and realistic as well. I think maybe imagination would be required for this and to execute it, and yes, maybe even to react to it. But - I think imagination is sometimes what makes the world go 'round.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/1/2006 11:28:55 AM >

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 11:29:39 AM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

If a person consents to having no consent, they have chosen to have no choice. So they actually have made a choice....the only choice that matters in a base kind of way ....the choice that they dont want a choice.

Therefore, in the way that my brain works, anything the dominant party does to/with the submissive party, even something that the submissive party doesnt want, has already been established as the choice of the submissive party.

So by virtue of the meaning of the word "Force", and the meaning of the word "want" in the OP's question, the hypothetical person wants to be forced, And given the fact that theyve already given their consent to be 'forced', I would have to say the answer to the OP's question is a resounding no.

Baseline for me...and I know I'll get jumped on for this, but this question gave birth to my theory, that at the end of the day, We aren't slaves to another's will, we're slaves to our own desires. We may love the person we submit to enough to submit to it all, but we are still submitting because we want to submit to anothers control, not because they want it.

Marie,

Bravo. I feel you summed up the no argument quite well. I'm personally on the fence about leaning so absolutely one way or another on the answer, however. My experience has shown me both answers to be true, in fact. The forms through which these conclusions were arrived upon would involve more detail than I'd like to reveal, suffice to say that though the concept is an animal with very rare and different stripes, I believe it does exist.

I answer your ending paragraph much the same way, too. On its strictly logical face, you present a winning argument. But desire is not a slave to logic. This is perhaps one of the most whimsical characteristics human beings possess; the ability to dream, to desire and be caught in that desire as surely as a spider tangled in its own web. In light of this and the well articulated facts you bring to the table, this is why, when speaking of slavery in the contemporary world of choice, I have always advocated a Master or Mistress make an art of discerning the validity and depth of authentic want and likewise hone the powers of capturing through the heart and mind. If so inspired, one will gladly enter by choice into bondage, and if the right tools are applied, they can be truly caught. For there is surely a place in the human mind where desire and choice and logic aren't so easily partitioned. This may not be the most scrupulous of ideas for many, but it is in fact a sleight of hand which is real and understood, but seldom discussed.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 11:40:08 AM

SusanofO

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Well - I think that your post above was very enlightening and thought-provoking to read, amayos.

It sounds like a murky depth that might be hard to explain, but having heard it explained, it sounds like a place that definitely exists and that also explains to me maybe why, even if forced scenes may not make perfect sense on a logical level, they remain an actuivity some want to try anyway, more than once, because they can seem real and also because the people involved desire it. If it was unappealing, who'd want to keep doing it?

P.S. - Wow - you just never run out of pics, do you?
- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/1/2006 11:42:37 AM >

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 11:43:47 AM

SusanofO

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amayos: I like this new pic best of all! Is there a message there?! Ha!

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/1/2006 11:46:11 AM >

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 11:45:35 AM

SusanofO

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Oops. Sometimes I seem to screw up these quote box things and then I have to write something in the post, because they won't just disappear even after I erase a comment. Please ignore that post that was just here. Sorry. Not trying to hi-jack this thread.

*Well - I know there are other people reading this thread (I can see you. You can run, but 'ya just can't hide.) I'd add something here, but I have nothing pithy or pertinent to add until I think on this further. It is indeed a good question, that leads to other questions. I know there are wise people out there who can and will contribute to it, though. My hope and faith remains eternal about this.

- Susan.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/1/2006 12:06:33 PM >

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 12:28:22 PM

Homestead

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Amayos made a very valid comment about the authenticity of desire. Most of what we do in this fails miserably to be explained by the higher thought processes. It is emotive and obsessive in nature. And trying to come to terms with it logically is a waste of time. You only chase your tail.

You may have noticed my usage of parables and stories here. I don't involve a lot of logic in them. What little commentary I use is strictly to support the tension I create. Tension, a pull, a draw, a binding.......it can be a subtle a a breeze, or as hard as a hammer blow. I look for effect.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 12:32:44 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

marie: Excuse me, but do you want to have any fun at all? Can't we just pretend, then, that despite the obvious "draw-backs" it might be interesting and fun anyway? Or, at least - stimulating? I was just starting to to look foward to a good forced-rape scenario! (yes, I am teasing you)...despite all of this - I remain committed to getting lost in the "fakery" of the moment entirely - I plan to enjoy it (or at least react with vigor) completely - every last false moment of it - when and if it happens to me. I will moan, and scream and kick, and resist so hard the other person may just call up the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and request I be put on next year's nominees list as best actress. I am going to try to be "into it" with every fiber of my being.

I actually can picture this working. I've read about it happening and where everyone involved seemed satisfied with the outcome. I think that it could be set up to be extremely surprising and realistic as well. I think maybe imagination would be required for this and to execute it, and yes, maybe even to react to it. But - I think imagination is sometimes what makes the world go 'round.

- Susan

Oh, I agree Susan. Im sure for alot of people it works. I think it would take a certain ability to "let go" completely and just let the 'play out' take place free of concious thoughts that you're getting lost in a part. I actually think it would take an incredible amount of mind control, that I simply do not have. (not in that area anyway). I cant even say that I know with certainty that I wouldnt get something out of it myself, because Ive never tried it. But its hard for me to get lost in "scenerio'....and thats more of an 'inability' on my part, than a statement of negativity about the notion of play rape.

Yes, I got your humor, but not before my stomach dropped for a second! lol

marie.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 12:53:01 PM

DoctorDubious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

(I know the answer to this but just presenting the topic for discussion)

How can you say you want to be "forced" to do a certain activity... I mean, if you are ASKING for it.... who ya trying to kid?

Dear LotusSong.... and gentle readers longing for force....

#1. While I have occasionally played "there"
I personally interested in willing, intelligent, ever-deepening surrender ....

Force/non-consensual play is... for me... not esthetically pleasing in the least.

Besides, in this crude and violent world,
there are enough advocates of force without me joining their ranks, eh?

#2.>>How can you say you want to be "forced" to do a certain activity... I mean, if you are ASKING for it.... who ya trying to kid?

Imagine a naive young soldier
who, in a burst of bravado, signs up for paratrooper training.
He completes all the "ground work"
with growing fear and apprehension about his first jump.
In the plane, he clips his parachite release to the line overhead....
.... slowly moves forward as his mates each jump from the plane

And when he's at the front of the line,
he freezes.... totally still and muscle-locked,
clinging with all his strength to the edges of the door

The two experienced jump-masters at the door
need all their strength and experience to push him through and down!

Was he forced to jump? I say yes.

#3. Have you seen the movies where the junkie
checks into detox.... and needs to be restrained to the bed
for days and days as he thrashes through the throes of withdrawl?
Where... if released in those critical days... it's sure he would go back to
the siren call of the exhilerating intoxication...

Was he forced to go drugless for those days when strapped to the bed?

I say yes.

#4. Consider this, we all have "parts" of ourselves
that long for an experience, or a change, for example
... to quite smoking, drinking, lose weight, exercise every day...

And other "parts" of ourselves that don't quite manage the change.... right?

My point is, people's desires and motivations are complex,
and are generally NOT single-minded, clear, nor fully congruent thru our whole self.

The fearful paratrooper, and the reluctant junkie
both consented... in a way .... and were forced, when looked at in another way.
It kinda depends if you are looking "micro" or "macro" at the situation.

So, in the what I suspect is the most common fantasy of force..
... a woman who dreams of being forced into sexual acts her "normal self" wouldn't do....

A part, or aspect of herself is being forced,
and another part, or aspect..... has given consent, in a "macro" way.

One of America's greatest poets,
(who, by the way, was also a genuine pervert!)
said....

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well, then I contradict myself.
I am large. I contain multitudes."

To be forced into something that you long for...
... but also dread with all your heart ....
Yes, I say that is possible,
if you consider that you do, indeed, contain multitudes.

DD
PS... the quote is from Whitman's Song of Myself.
He spend his entire life writing his great work,
Leaves of Grass. And you know what?
He changed the entire meaning of important passages
many many times in the decades that he wrote and re-wrote that work.

PSS>>I know the answer to this

So, Dear LotusSong,
if you do have the ultimate answer to this question,
I'd love for you to share it with us.
Am I correct in assuming that you say
the paratrooper was NOT forced from the plane on that fateful day
because he consensually signed up for jump training six months earlier?

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 1:07:13 PM

DoctorDubious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Bravo. I feel you summed up the no argument quite well. I'm personally on the fence about leaning so absolutely one way or another on the answer, however. My experience has shown me both answers to be true, in fact. The forms through which these conclusions were arrived upon would involve more detail than I'd like to reveal, suffice to say that though the concept is an animal with very rare and different stripes, I believe it does exist.

I answer your ending paragraph much the same way, too. On its strictly logical face, you present a winning argument. But desire is not a slave to logic. This is perhaps one of the most whimsical characteristics human beings possess; the ability to dream, to desire and be caught in that desire as surely as a spider tangled in its own web. In light of this and the well articulated facts you bring to the table, this is why, when speaking of slavery in the contemporary world of choice, I have always advocated a Master or Mistress make an art of discerning the validity and depth of authentic want and likewise hone the powers of capturing through the heart and mind.

If so inspired, one will gladly enter by choice into bondage, and if the right tools are applied, they can be truly caught. For there is surely a place in the human mind where desire and choice and logic aren't so easily partitioned. This may not be the most scrupulous of ideas for many, but it is in fact a sleight of hand which is real and understood, but seldom discussed.

Dear Amayos, and others who see the world as complex and multifacted...

I agree with almost every word you write above,
and am particularly struck by those words I bolded into red.

DD
PS.... I too like your new pics.
I was always amused the the previous strong black and white pic....
when you are one of the least black-and-white thinkers around.

I appreciate incongruity and paradox.

Now you have a halo, which I find mordantly ironic, and fitting....

edited to add the PS about the pic

< Message edited by DoctorDubious -- 9/1/2006 1:09:43 PM >

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 2:28:53 PM

marieToo

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Amayos:
I think the reason that I see the term (consentual non consent) in an absoloute form of impossiblity, is because I am taking the words in a purely literal sense. I can however, understand a slave making the general basic commitment to consent to anything Master wants., which means of course if he wants to slice her thigh open, but she hates the idea of it, she still remains as a consenting partner in order to remain true to her commitment to consent . Either way, theres still zero non consent happening in this case. Theres only something happening that she doesnt like/enjoy. Im really not trying to pull a semantics number here, or even change anyone's opinion. Im really thinking that some of us are talking about the exact same thing, but not in agreement on what term makes the most sense. I think people sometimes confuse "non-consent" to mean the same thing as the endurance of "non-desire". Though your cage analogy sort of throws a slight monkey wrench into my neatly filing this away. But the person did consent to getting in the cage knowing that something might occur that is "non-desired", but that still doesnt make it "non-consent". I think if we called it "consent to non-desirable", It would make more sense literally (to me at least), than to call it consent to non consent. I think if I beat this issue any longer its going to use its safeword.
Your statement that desire isnt always a slave to logical, I agree with. Id go even further to say that desire sometimes defies more than logic. Desire is sometimes a slave to corruption and evil. but they are desires nonetheless; desires that we cant make logical sense of. The "spider" who wants to become tangled in its own web. --- Its desire to be a tangled, helpless spider captured in a web that should be rather it's safety net and not his trap--- Its a good example of illogical desire. Maybe trying to make rational sense of our desires is part of what keeps us from realizing them at times. Your quote: <<<<I have always advocated a Master or Mistress make an art of discerning the validity and depth of authentic want and likewise hone the powers of capturing through the heart and mind. If so inspired, one will gladly enter by choice into bondage, and if the right tools are applied, they can be truly caught. For there is surely a place in the human mind where desire and choice and logic aren't so easily partitioned. This may not be the most scrupulous of ideas for many, but it is in fact a sleight of hand which is real and understood, but seldom discussed. >>>> You are right. And I equate this to laying in wait for your prey, in a sense. Which seems and feels so wrong..... But what if the prey desires capture? As was eluded to earlier, Sometimes a desire that feels so strong, remains in complete incongruency with our beliefs of right/wrong, moral/immoral, evil/pure. This is where conflict comes in ....for me anyway. I hope the context of your tangled spider analogy didnt escape me. Your response to my post felt like a gift. Not even so much that there was an agreeance of sorts, but because it was a response...from you. Thank you. < The halo perhaps is fitting, for today, at least> : ) marie.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 2:41:33 PM

LotusSong

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To quote one of your countrymen, "Brevity is the soul of wit"- Shakespeare. And so, I shall be brief.

One can only be “forced” if the committing or outcome of an act was not pre-planned, agreed to, or expected.

Sorry folks- you cannot be willingly forced.
However, you can pretend your little ass off. :)

I would not allow anyone to put me in the position of having forced them. It could backfire, moreso for the men than the women. But then that is reality and we ARE talking fantasy here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DoctorDubious
So, Dear LotusSong,
if you do have the ultimate answer to this question,
I'd love for you to share it with us.
Am I correct in assuming that you say
the paratrooper was NOT forced from the plane on that fateful day
because he consensually signed up for jump training six months earlier?

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 2:44:48 PM

Homestead

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Fantasy is nicer though, the cops don't get called.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 3:09:51 PM

onestandingstill

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I think forced play serves two purposes pretty well myself. Yes it's consensual underneath. The role play allows you to live out fantasies that would not be hot if they were really forced on you. An example would be rape. It's way hot to be roughly taken role playing he's some bad man come to get you. Real rape is different because it's non-consensual, you do not know that no bodily permanent harm will come to you, and there's no safe word if the mind fu*k goes south. Real - not cool Pretend Forced - Mmmmmmore please Sir Purrrr.
Another example of a benefit of pretend forced play is say a heterosexual male has the desire to play with other males. A lot of men can not admit even to themselves they like that. In their own mind they are phobic of being bi-sexual. If his Domme makes him do the dirty deed in his own mind he sees that as OK and not a threat as he did it for her. This way timid, scared, damaged or confused people have a way to explore parts of themselves that scare the crap out of them safely. A woman who's naturally prudish & modest might not ever be able to be comfortable naked in a group of others etc.. If her Dom makes her do it then she's still a good girl in her own mind as she is alleviated of the responsibility of the choice too.

In this blurry area I think being fake & exploring things that are very real to you is a good thing.
Suzanne

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 3:16:26 PM

Homestead

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Yes, both force scenarios and bondage have been used by me to overcome the old catholic guilt thing. The ways in which minds work can be very amusing, I just go with what works best.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 3:17:00 PM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

But then that is reality and we ARE talking fantasy here.

Goodness, that's brevity and linear absolutism, all in one, I'd say.

So it's all fantasy? Huh. Well, I'm speechless, other than to say that I suppose an inability to comprehend something does not mean it cannot exist. While I nod to your personal experience, I will, for the sake of reciprocal brevity, respectfully disagree.

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RE: Forced! - 9/1/2006 3:17:20 PM

onestandingstill

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well, if one has a prettry good imagination, and also a deep desire to have something that's in fact been desired seem to be forced, that can work sometimes, to make the situation run a close second to "reality", can't it?

What other choice is there, here, except for the general consensual agreement to agree to whatever (anything), and then maybe have some particular desired scenario be a "surprise"?

I suppose I am asking -

What would the alternative be, for someone who likes "forced" scenarios? I don't really see that many. In fact, I don't see any.

- Susan

Homestead

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You force them to do something they really dislike.

They have to pick three, you do one. No safe words!

I really got hot over this suggestion. Lay down three outrageous, push your limit to the hilt, hard types of things you're willing to do. I love the evil twist of watch what you ask for you just might get it in this.
Very creative there Homestead.
Suzanne

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