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RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 12:39:21 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		Amayos, in the long run, I do not worry about the perceptions of others. What interests me is the inherent programming, and capablities of an intimate partner. If they mesh in a way we find to be mutually satisfying, it becomes our reality.

And the rest of the world can go merrily bugger itself, WE don't care.

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 1:22:09 PM   
NJSubGirl


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Joined: 4/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Amayos, in the long run, I do not worry about the perceptions of others. What interests me is the inherent programming, and capablities of an intimate partner. If they mesh in a way we find to be mutually satisfying, it becomes our reality.

And the rest of the world can go merrily bugger itself, WE don't care.


Amen!

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 2:12:34 PM   
NJSubGirl


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Joined: 4/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

But considering the matter of choice and force in a more general sense, I see many areas where choice to be forced applies. For an extreme and current event example, the suicide bomber in the middle east chooses to wrap explosives around himself and detonate his body—which will be destroyed by the force of the explosion.

Layn Steeley, despite a deep understanding of his path to self destruction, eventually died as a result of a heroin addiction. Anyone addicted to anything, at some point, makes a choice to submit to the force of that addiction and allow it to continue, though its continuance may have grave consequences. One need only read Steeley's moving lyrics to see he understood exactly where he was going.

Even considering masochism, can one not say a masochist makes a choice to be forced, even if that force is self-inflected? A bullwhip will certainly force your skin apart with enough throw—despite your skin's natural inclination to stay intact—and there are a majority of people in our world of six billion who could not possibly understand why anyone would ever choose to allow that, but some do, and a percentage choose it for no other reason than the sensation itself in the ambience of fetish clubs. Branding, cutting and other forms of force come to mind as well, but I will leave that to the imagination.

But you know, if you really want to take the idea to a macro philosophical level, with a little bit of thought on the matter you start to see how the argument that one cannot choose to be forced weakens, in the very least. A great percentage of the American public on average refuses to take part in elections. Their omission of choice is a passive decision to go with the flow, wherever that flow bodes for their social and economic wellbeing. They have, in a very real sense, elected to not elect, which is literally deciding to allow whatever powers may be decide for them. On its logical face, there is no excuse for not voting, or staying abreast of the goings-on in politics. Citing that the system is corrupt and it's a futile gesture is not an excuse, whatsoever. By bearing witness to the problem, you should, in good conscience and in the logical interest of your own wellbeing, try then to correct it. But many don't, despite their full understanding of the choice they're making.


I realize some of these examples (as well as those provided by others) fall outside the realm of the personal subjugation we're speaking of, though in considering the nature of their extremity, one cannot help but respect the human being for its capacity to willfully supercede logic or its natural prime biological directive of preservation. Be it conscription, addiction, masochism or the sacrifice of an acolyte or warrior, I believe choice to be forced can and does happen every single day on this planet.



Living under the benefit and not just the painful parts of force, i know it is real and happens.





(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 2:17:11 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I favored the one he had up earlier, all crouched down, nude and looking so innocent and vulnerable; I thought the dichotomy of that, to his otherwise stringent personality was kind of striking.


Sorry about that. When a friend of mine on CM suggested that her first impression of it was of weeing in the woods, I felt obligated to take it down.


It's clear in my memory, I can see it anytime I want.   

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 2:21:28 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Amayos: 


On my first read of your post, I saw a clear and valid argument that consent to "force" can (and does) exist, when its not "wanted", such as in the case of a junkie who wishes he could quit, yet he voluntarily submits to the force of the addiction.  I dont mean to lessen the value of your point, when I say if Lotus' question had been presented to recovering junkies on a recovering addict thread,  instead of in a bdsm forum,  maybe one of those recovering addicts would have seen what you saw.  I speak for myself when I say I went right into the bdsm application of the question.  It never even crossed my mind to carry it any further than that.  Theres nothing in your argument that submitting to unwanted force does indeed exist,  that I can counter.  Awesome illustration of expanding one's mind to endless possibilities rather than just one possible interpretation.

I can also see a kind of convoluted "consent to non consent" argument,  when it would involve involuntary instinctive reactions such as breathing.  One is consenting to breath play,  while their physical body is in a state of something that I guess we can loosely call "non-consent" because it has no choice, but to gasp for air.  Its probably the best argument one can give from the 'yes' camp.  But Im personally not still not feeling it,  because you're comparing a conscious mindful consent to an instinctive involuntary one.  I think this does however point out that there are differing types of consent.


<More that I wanted to respond to that time doesnt allow at the moment>

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RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 2:31:17 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NJSubGirl


Living under the benefit and not just the painful parts of force, i know it is real and happens.


~ Echoes your sentiment.  And those benefits are immeasureable.

(in reply to NJSubGirl)
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RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 3:26:25 PM   
amayos


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Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I dont mean to lessen the value of your point, when I say if Lotus' question had been presented to recovering junkies on a recovering addict thread, instead of in a bdsm forum, maybe one of those recovering addicts would have seen what you saw. I speak for myself when I say I went right into the bdsm application of the question. It never even crossed my mind to carry it any further than that. Theres nothing in your argument that submitting to unwanted force does indeed exist, that I can counter. Awesome illustration of expanding one's mind to endless possibilities rather than just one possible interpretation.

I can also see a kind of convoluted "consent to non consent" argument, when it would involve involuntary instinctive reactions such as breathing. One is consenting to breath play, while their physical body is in a state of something that I guess we can loosely call "non-consent" because it has no choice, but to gasp for air. Its probably the best argument one can give from the 'yes' camp. But Im personally not still not feeling it, because you're comparing a conscious mindful consent to an instinctive involuntary one. I think this does however point out that there are differing types of consent.


<More that I wanted to respond to that time doesnt allow at the moment>


Good points, Marie. My aim is to continue focusing as best I may on the original question, which was basically, how can you say you want to be "forced" to do something? My examples were intended to show that desire and negative force—even if that force is deadly and detrimental to you—do coincide in some cases and can be asked, sought out and executed wantingly, even if you are refusing on a very real level.

I certainly read you about the addiction portion and how one could illustrate that it doesn't apply, but I thought it was an interesting parallel with a process that becomes rooted in a slave's mind when existing for her Master—mind body and soul. One could certainly look at her love and desire to serve him as a very powerful addiction with all the same trappings, and I have seen this to be the case in my world, at least. A Master or Mistress may encourage those addictions and dependencies, too, for what greater slave is the humbled addict? Evil, perhaps, and I will not venture to argue a point made there. I am guilty as charged.

The last part of your response touches upon the different "brains" we possess in the same skull, and of the incongruence that can occur sometimes therein. I wanted to show that the cerebral, cognitive parts of the brain can desire to force the reptilian into alarm, whereupon the reptilian then takes over in resistance, and lo: you have a living, breathing contradiction. Mechanical in nature, I know, but I feel it offers a valid nuts and bolts example.




< Message edited by amayos -- 9/2/2006 3:35:42 PM >

(in reply to marieToo)
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RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 10:56:16 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Some things are very odd around this place.   I had some stuff to do in real life, and figured by the time I got back here, people would be still tossing this around.   Its funny how a thread about chubby ladies will go on for days and days.  But when something of substance gets rolling, everyone retreats.   Its not just on this thread.  Ive seen in on many threads when the content starts to get too serious. I wonder why that is.   

At any rate......I wanted to finish responding to your stuff,  amayos.  Going back and forth I guess is alot like what Homestead said about a dog chasing its tail.  But it sure brings to light alot of things that just never entered my mind.....  Theres something I pick up from just about every poster that sends me off thinking about something. (Some more than others of course)  And I dont mind chasing my tail, because I find this stuff interesting. This discourse of....I dont know what....theories?  Philosophies?  

A line in your post amayos....(Im going to quote you in bold black, because I suck at quote boxes)

<<< and my slave hated and loved the asphyxiation resulting from my sitting upon her face. Her loyalty was such, however, that she would do literally anything to please me,>>>
 
Did she "hate and love"?  Or did she only love;  love to hate?   Which I guess can be construed as loving one thing while hating another at the exact same time.  I related to this because it immediately brought to mind a way that I have always described my masochistic aspects to people who dont quite get it.  In an effort to help someone understand my particular masochism...I tell them "I enjoy having to endure something I dont enjoy".  I mean hows that for an even worse question than the consentual non consent? .  How can I possibly enjoy something I dont enjoy.  Well, the thing about this dynamic is that we hate a specific act, but we love some other aspect of it...such as pleasing the dominant, or being at another's mercy or whatever your thing is.  So...its like a pyramid...On top is the fundamental question.....Do you desire 'non consent"?  If the answer is yes, then the next question down the pyramind is.  So would you consent to a non-consentual act?  Consent is one thing. then the specific non consentual act in and of itself, can be viewed as a different level (or layer) of the pyramid.  

Same thing with how can it be possible to enjoy something you dont enjoy.  Again it makes no sense if we apply the true meaning of the words...But I am living breathing proof of that being true.  When we break it down to a base enjoyment (submitting to our dominants pleasure), then the secondary non enjoyable act, which we may hate having done to us,  but love the fact (not the act) of delivering satisfaction and pride to our dominant.  A very simple example:  I abhor physical pain, but it brings me enjoyment on other levels;  Im pleasing my dominant, Im feeling my submission more strongly,  Im being reminded that he is in control, Im providing him with the pleasure that he gets when the sting hits my body etc etc. Even though Im seeing red from the pain and I wish it would stop, Im enjoying the aspects that the hated act represents .  I realize that was kind of off the question of the OP, but I think a pretty good similar type of analogy.  Can you enjoy something you dont enjoy?  Most would say no, (I think).  I would have to say yes. 


marie.


Edited because once again, there are certain things that are better off kept buried.  :)    


< Message edited by marieToo -- 9/2/2006 11:48:28 PM >

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 11:05:05 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		What you said will only make sense to a select few here marie. No need to trot it out for those who will not understand.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Forced! - 9/2/2006 11:26:28 PM   
marieToo


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From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

What you said will only make sense to a select few here marie. No need to trot it out for those who will not understand.


I know.   But in some ways Im still in that stage of 'conflict'.  you know what I mean.   I have to find a place to keep it , i guess

(in reply to Homestead)
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RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 1:30:23 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		marie: Yes, you can enjoy something you don't enjoy (where are the married CM members? joke). Seriously, I think the example of addictions serves very well to illustrate this - although I've read some things (mostly by former drug and booze addicts) that do point out that for some, usually at the far end of their addiction's life, the joy of experiencing the addicted substance goes out the window, and it's merely the feeding of a compulsion due to physical and psychologoical addiction that is being serviced when it's indulged in. As amayos stated earlier, the addict knows where things are headed, but feels powerless to stop. Footnote: The longer post a few posts ago by amayos was really great at getting to the heart of the question of this thread, I thought.

I don't recall ever reading much by present or former addicts stating their addiction was an overall UNpleasant experience at its end stages, and I do think that possibly has to do as much with social mores (re: booze and drugs) as much as anything else - who would promote such reading matierial in 2006? But I think such experiences might  indeed be in existence (and no, I am not promoting drug addiction or booze addiction - at all, by saying this. I am just pointing out the people who would come forward to promote it have thinned a lot since the late 1960's).

But, there is one thing I was thinking...addiction to a person, that is slightly different. A drug can't talk to you and get inside your head. A drug or booze, it might be argued, can't affect your existence is such myriad ways. A drug doesn't volunteer to put itself inside your mind or self - you have to seek it out, every single time you invite it in. If you're living with someone, though, or they've become a part of your life in a major way, they are there in your life, alongside you - affecting your life in all sorts of ways that can influence, probably sometimes almost imperceptibly (but at the same time very definitely), which way the wind blows, so to speak, in terms of you needing them more and more - every day. Or not.

At least, that's what I imagine happens. The addicted one may claim, rightly, that they are in the grip of something they are powerless to affect or overcome, but they in fact made the initial choice (depending on the circumstances, I suppose) to be in the relationship, and are thus equally responsible, with the other person in it, for the ramifications of what happens after that choice was made. Or are they? This is an interesting thread. Where are all of the CM members who are attorneys? They'd love this thread - they'd have a field day with it, I think.

It would also maybe help if we could revive a member of the Jim Jones religious cult that suicided by drinking the poisonous Kool-Aid, which he ordered them to do, under the pretense they would enter heaven (really). Were they forced to do that, because they wanted so badly to believe him? Much of the rest of the world came to the conclusion they were forced, as I recall reading. I think the term they used was brainwashed - even though the emmebrs of that cult voluntarily joined it to begin with. But then there is another example - does anyone besides me remember when heiress Patricia Hearsy was kidnapped by the 'Symbionese Liberation Army'? She was fighting for their side, even though she was their kidnapping victim, and some experts decided she was suffering from "Stockholm syndrome" (identifying with her captors as means of psychological survival). But, she was prosecuted anyway. So - amayos is right - I think the answer to this question will ultimately go either way, depending on who you ask, and the specific circumstances surrounding the question, which always seem to color the view.   

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/3/2006 2:35:43 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to marieToo)
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RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 3:48:42 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		 Maybe one underlying principle with being a dedicated submissive, and certainly a slave, is the willingness to experience delayed gratification because long-term gain, for the submissive or slave, or the relationship, seems more fulfilling then fulfulling short-term desires. Maybe this is why some people sometimes compare the feelings resulting from it as "spiritual" in nature? I've even heard some people compare bdsm it to a religion. I am sure this experience is not limited to submissives or slaves, and that Dominants probably can feel the pleasurable effects of delayed gratification in a bdsm relationship as well. I am kind of going out on an intellectual limb, here, though - and this may not make as much sense to others as it does to me.  

As a very mundane example - some people hate dieting, but love the results. Do they "enjoy" dieting? Not usually (maybe some do, but many do not).  Yet, do they like what happens to their body when they diet? Yes. They forced themsleves to do something they didn't like, because they wanted what they knew (or hoped) would be the end result.  

I've read many posts by folks who say they don't enjoy an activity but do it because their Dominant or Master enjoys it. Non-masochists paired with a Sadist come to mind. I've also read posts from those who aren't in such a relationship say they don't enjoy some activity or other, but do it anyway, because it makes them feel "safe" somehow. So, I suppose, I am suggesting that "asking to be forced" being a legitimate, even major component of bdsm relationships might in fact go beyond the realm of in-your-face forced scenarios such as "forced" rape. They might, in fact, involve any bdsm activity a submissive or a slave doesn't relish, but does anyway, either because the entire basis of the D/s relationship requires it, or they "simply" want to please their Dominant or Master. Just because the "reality" of it being actually forced may be an "illusion" doesn't mean (to me) that it cannot, at the same time, be very soul-satisfying.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/3/2006 4:42:33 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 4:16:54 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		I read through this interesting thread and have come down to Susan's post which pretty much works out the answer. (She has done the work for me :)

The delayed gratification analogy seems to fit. I just told someone that I could make her do anything and she agreed because it would signify that our D/s relationship is strong. She will do what she doesnt' want to do because the delayed gratification results in a desireable D/s relationship for her.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 4:27:38 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks, ExSteel. I really do think willingness and desire to experience delayed gratification, as well as "asking to be forced" are the basis of a D/s (certainly a M/s) relationship, in many ways. But I didn't realize I thought this until I came back to this thread late this morning, and read some other new posts (amayos' and marie's in particular).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/3/2006 5:02:27 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 6:17:38 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

What you said will only make sense to a select few here marie. No need to trot it out for those who will not understand.

This is exaclty the way I feel in heavy scenes too. I think more people will get marie than you think.

(in reply to Homestead)
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RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 7:30:23 AM   
spankmepink11


Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline 		What a wonderful read this thread has been. Theres really nothing i could add that would explain my opinions on it that have not already been stated by Amayos, Homestead, and marie.  My thoughts on it correspond with a combination of their three views.  I do think for the most part, that we get hung up on terminology and tend to split hairs in that regard. 
I think it all hinges on desire as well.  While i may not desire to perform a certain activity, my desire to please the One who who commands it will overrule my aversion to the activity in general.. (unless of course it is a pre set  hard limit) Hence the feeling of being forced. 
I really cannot comment on the forced "rape" concept, because even though i've had  pretty dark fantasies in that regard, it is something i've yet to experience, so i cannot  give an informed opinion.

Thanks again for the great read!

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 7:47:24 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		Intensity is a key factor in this, being torn out of your comfort zone.

Waiting, bent over a bondage horse, gagged, after being given a humiliating enema a few hours before...........knowing you are going to be sodomized in an ass rape.....and it's going to hurt like hell. And he doesn't really care that it's painful-or difficult. He just gets off on it.

Or being out in the garden, hand pulling weeds for most of a day. Hating the work, the drudgery. The boredom. But you were told to, and so there you are.

(in reply to spankmepink11)
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RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 7:48:26 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

What you said will only make sense to a select few here marie. No need to trot it out for those who will not understand.

This is exaclty the way I feel in heavy scenes too. I think more people will get marie than you think.


I know that, I am respecting her wishes.

(in reply to onestandingstill)
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RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 8:32:30 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		Last night Slave joined us to watch football and some pizza.  The place we order pizza from includes a garlic butter dip .. which I just love.  While we were eating.. I asked slave if he had ever tried the dip.  He said no.  I then  held it up and said "Try it."  He hesitated   I added "NOW." He did so and quickly (like a good boy).  He didn't say anything afterward. I asked "Well?"  He said,  it didn't respond to his sweet tooth. (I dunno.. a ham and pinapple pizza with a garlic dip?.. sounds good to me.. but then I have a Hungarian background and we eat things like this)  But anyhow, my point is.. it was a spontaneous FORCED situation.  There was  no  aforehand knowledge of anything.  I didnt know he would not like it.  He did it for me regardless of what he liked or did not because I ordered him to.  Did he like it?  I don't know how ANYONE could NOT like pinapple with garlic dip!   (You guys do your torture.. I'll do mine :) 

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Forced! - 9/3/2006 8:37:45 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		LoutusSong: Wow, you're a truly evil Domme...hehe!

Like I used to tell my puppy dog, Oscar, when he whined because I only gave him a few spoonfuls of ice cream instead of two bowls like he wanted: "Call the Humane Society now, and ask for asylum. You're definitely being abused. Doggies should not have to even contemplate lives without Mac n' Cheese and Chef-Boy-ar-Dee ravioli ,or cookies. It's unthinkable!"
I am not comparing you slave to a pup, but you get my meaning (I hope).

But - If I didn't know he didn't like veggies, and gave them to him on the premise he'd eat just about anything (because he's rarely proven me wrong in presuming that), would I be forcing him to eat veggies? Hmmm.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/3/2006 8:58:24 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 120
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