marieToo
Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SusanofO
It would also maybe help if we could revive a member of the Jim Jones religious cult that suicided by drinking the poisonous Kool-Aid, which he ordered them to do, under the pretense they would enter heaven (really). Were they forced to do that, because they wanted so badly to believe him? Much of the rest of the world came to the conclusion they were forced, as I recall reading. I think the term they used was brainwashed - even though the emmebrs of that cult voluntarily joined it to begin with. But then there is another example - does anyone besides me remember when heiress Patricia Hearsy was kidnapped by the 'Symbionese Liberation Army'? She was fighting for their side, even though she was their kidnapping victim, and some experts decided she was suffering from "Stockholm syndrome" (identifying with her captors as means of psychological survival). But, she was prosecuted anyway. So - amayos is right - I think the answer to this question will ultimately go either way, depending on who you ask, and the specific circumstances surrounding the question, which always seem to color the view.
- Susan
Wow. These above situations are actually addressed in a book that Im reading.. I tend to read slowly, but Ive been working my way through this book for a couple months now. This is going to be a dry read, so you neednt bother if you dont want, but I just have to elaborate on this before I burst.
The mass suicide....its not so much brainwashing as it is this thing called 'social order or social proof". I cant think of the exact name the author calls it. ...but Its so basic really...one lady drinks the stuff feeds it to her little one...they go sit in a meadow and die...the others watch....and another one goes and does the same thing....before you know it, theyre all doing it. Its a form of conformism in a way,but its caused by a social impact or a social influence that we dont even realize we are under. They were 'followers'. Its all over the place (in less extreme examples) if you really think about it.
Its so weird that you mentioned the Stockholm syndrome, I was thinking this very thing myself over this thread...though I cant remember what triggered it. I think the stockholm syndrome has more to do with 'laws of reciprocation' than brainwashing. That type of thing is touched on in the book Im reading also. Its about two things...contrast and reciprocation. You are captured and treated like shit...youre scared, youre kept in the dark, hungry or whatever....After a couple hours of this sheer terror, your captor now comes in and brings you food and offers you comfort, telling you that you will not be harmed...wow what a relief huh? You have now just seen your enemy as your new friend, because he did something nice for you. Theres the contrast...scared and helpless now relieved and comforted. Now since he did something nice for you, we as human beings have to reciprocate, its just something innate to us...so you do something nice for him....you cooperate with him, in order to pay him back for doing such a lovely thing as to bring you food and turn the lights on, maybe let you use the bathroom. Im not so smart enough to come up with this; its all in the book and it makes SO much sense. Think about reciprocation; Someone gives you a compliment, you give one back. Someone gives you a gift, you feel obligated to give something back. Go to the grocery store and some lady offers you a 'free sample' of cheese....good lord, how can you walk past her now without purchasing a pound of it? Someone invites you to their house for dinner, whats the last thing you say before you leave? "hey next time we'll do it at my place"...and you know what? You wont feel comfortable until you've returned the favor of offering dinner. This shit is so strong that not only will you need to reciprocate, but you will most likely do it in a more extravagant way. You will pay back and then some.
Hell, I dont like to think that I ever give something to get something back, and I know I dont. But when someone gives something to me.....I have begun to notice that I give it back. Not neccesarily right away, but it gets placed into the "I owe you one file". I dont even mean something materialistic. I mean someone just says....'hey good points in your post" and what do you do? " You say "Thanks and you brought up some good stuff too".
I noticed this reciprocation thing once with a girlfriend of mine. She asked me to watch her son for about an hour because she had an appointment. Of course I did it, it was nothing for me to do this. But it was like she couldnt wait to 'repay' me somehow. It was nuts, cuz we're friends. I didnt want repayment, but she wasnt comfortable until she could do something for me. Then one day a couple months later, I needed her to watch my child....but for a much longer stretch of time than I watched hers. It was like for an 8 hour day. She doesnt have or make alot of money, and I wanted to pay her for this. She wouldnt even consider it, which I guess is cool, because Id never want money for helping a friend either, but she was in need of $$ and it was for a whole day. But no she wouldnt consider it. Well, when I got home at the end of this 8 hour stretch, it wasnt enough that she had watched my kid for WAY longer than I had babysat hers, but she had taken my daughter out for lunch, and bought her a craft kit at a local Five and Ten (again, this girl can barely pay her bills) but she bought my child lunch (even though I had food in the house) and a craft kit and came back to the house and made crafts with her all day. This was the first time I really saw the perfect example of this in such a vivid form.
Not only will we reciprocate, but we will reciprocate and then some. btw, after she did this for me, her demeanor was different, she somehow felt better, as if a weight had been lifted. Now, mind you, Id watch her kid any time she wants and never want or expect anything in return, but next time she wants me to do it, I am going to ask her to pick me up a gallon of milk on her way back. Why? So I can give her relief from feeling like she "owes me one". And yes, even that little gesture of stopping in the store and dropping 2 bucks will be all she needs to feel like she can pick her child up and go home without this little weight on her shoulders that makes her feel like she has to pay me back. Look and think and look and think some more....this IS human nature. Hence the Stockholm syndrome (in my opinion anyway). Youre in a scared place, and your captor offers you comfort...No matter that they put you there in the first place; they just did something nice for you....and guess what? You now feel indebted. You cant help but feel indebted. Its the way we're built. And if handled correctly, you will continue to return whatever favor they need and then when theyre caught, you'll even defend them.
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RE: Forced! - 
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