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Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 5:07:05 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		I am interested in hearing from those that actively practice or have a desire to implement elements of the Geisha lifestyle or other facets of Asian culture in their service. In your opinion, what lessons can we learn that may be of benefit for those that are service oriented submissives? Please feel free to share your experiences, training, and ideas. Responses are most welcome from dominant and submissive persons. Thank you.

porcelaine




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His will; my fate.
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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 5:10:05 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Peach has been looking for a suitable female for nyotaimori, but every time I suggest someone, she objects that the woman doesn't have the right shape for it...

(in reply to porcelaine)
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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 5:33:32 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

I am interested in hearing from those that actively practice or have a desire to implement elements of the Geisha lifestyle or other facets of Asian culture in their service. In your opinion, what lessons can we learn that may be of benefit for those that are service oriented submissives? Please feel free to share your experiences, training, and ideas. Responses are most welcome from dominant and submissive persons. Thank you.

porcelaine





Grace, beauty, and style. An emphasis on ritual and service.

A holding to tradition and high standards of performance, and artistic merit..Pretty much everything the banal and animalisitc bdsm scene has come to lack as a whole.

I think it is wonderful, and would gladly welcome it.

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 5:37:55 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Grace, beauty, and style. An emphasis on ritual and service.

A holding to tradition and high standards of performance, and artistic merit..Pretty much everything the banal and animalisitc bdsm scene has come to lack as a whole.

I think it is wonderful, and would gladly welcome it.


Do you feel there's a lack of interest in these things or merely a low supply of persons willing to perform in this manner?

porcelaine

< Message edited by porcelaine -- 9/2/2006 5:38:25 PM >

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 5:39:03 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Grace, beauty, and style. An emphasis on ritual and service.

A holding to tradition and high standards of performance, and artistic merit..Pretty much everything the banal and animalisitc bdsm scene has come to lack as a whole.

I think it is wonderful, and would gladly welcome it.


Do you feel there's a lack of interest in these things or merely a low supply of persons willing to perform in this manner?

porcelaine?


There is a low supply of dedication, in contrast to lust.

Few worship in the temple of the first, many in the latter.

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 5:47:29 PM   
MissTlTTYMilk


Posts: 142
Joined: 6/17/2006
Status: offline 		That world [Geisha and other* Asian cultures] holds so much mystery and awe for me.  i wish i had something to offer besides my limited knowledge of the book and movie Memoirs of a Geisha. i am anxious to see what others may have to offer in this topic as far as experience. i would gladly welcome it as Homestead has most eloquently stated and agree with His posts above. (no brown nosing--a genuine interest)

*edited to add other

< Message edited by MissTlTTYMilk -- 9/2/2006 6:36:51 PM >

_____________________________

"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. "
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. "
--Bertrand Russell

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 5:58:53 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Porcelaine:  Do you want authenticity, or just fun and games with a phony "Asian" flare?  Are you seeking to incorporate a Japanese ritual into WIIWD (and by the way, the lumping of "Geisha" with "Asian" is a serious error in understanding any of the wildly diverse and totally unrelated cultures of Asia)?  Perhaps one could have their submissive study the Tea Service.  Of course, the Dominant would have to take part, as the audience/patrons in the way of Tea are as important as the server.  And it is totally non sexual, meditative and thoughtful service with a deep tradition that I as a Western non Japanese male (even with years of study) do not pretend to understand.  But it could be a start. 

I wouldn't do it however because were I a Tea Master, or a Geisha teacher, or any of the myriad of "living treasures" that teach Japanese ways in Japan, I might find your question at least amusing, and at worst, insulting. 

And LaM, while nyotamori sounds fun and looks lovely, it is of course virtually unknown in traditional Japanese culture, except as an amusing practice that Westerners think has any roots in Japan.  It is a modern concept, almost unknown in Japan. 

Sorry to sprinkle rain on everyone's fun, but in fact I find this cultural imperialism of Americans insulting...that we can borrow from 5000 year old traditions to make our B/D/S/M games more fun smacks of arrogance.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 6:08:06 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		I knew a service submissive that wanted to learn the tea ceremony from an actual Japanese tea mistress. The woman didn't take her seriously, and the girl had to prove her dedication before she would even consider taking her on as a student. And the course was not FREE.

I realize quite well, that this is an ancient art, and should be given the respect it deserves. And it is PURELY about art and service, not about being a "pillow girl".

Which is why I find it so attractive. It's extraordinary.

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 6:11:19 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Please don't condescend to lecture me about Japan.  It's not a 5,000-year-old tradition.

And nyotaimori is known in Japan.  Maybe you just haven't found it.

Edited to add:

http://www.kornerson.com/media/qplay2.asp?m=200606/special-table.flv

http://umemiya.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mori.html

http://www.ax.misty.ne.jp/~land/column/nyotaimori/nyotaimori.htm

What are those?  Pictures and articles about nyotaimori in Japan.  Oh, but it can't be; nyotaimori is unknown in Japan...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

And LaM, while nyotamori sounds fun and looks lovely, it is of course virtually unknown in traditional Japanese culture, except as an amusing practice that Westerners think has any roots in Japan.  It is a modern concept, almost unknown in Japan.

Sorry to sprinkle rain on everyone's fun, but in fact I find this cultural imperialism of Americans insulting...that we can borrow from 5000 year old traditions to make our B/D/S/M games more fun smacks of arrogance.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/2/2006 6:44:14 PM >

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 6:16:00 PM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		I must that I have always been overawed by rites and rituals of all kinds.  My Dominant and I share that interest.  It would be lovely to find a place(s) where this kind of ritual training was offered.  There would be one submissive here who would happily sign up for classes.

In the meantime, we have established quite a number of rituals in our own home.  After waking and taking care of his needs (ahem!), I rise first, run his shower and go to get him when it is ready.  I make breakfast while he is in the shower and then up to the bedroom to meet him and help him dress, even putting on his socks and shoes for him.  Since I never eat breakfast (only coffee, by my own choice), I bring him his food in the DR, lay the napkin in his lap and fix his coffee while he starts to eat.  Only after he is out the door, do I get myself ready for work.  Our evenings have their rituals as well.

It is funny how I just thought about this subject this morning.  On Saturday (or Sunday) morning, he often will take me out for breakfast.  This is a tightly packed neighborhood restaurant where everyone knows everyone else and it is common to talk to the people at the next table (10" away from yours).  As he and the gentleman were chatting about baseball and his wife and I were sharing jokes about both of their obsessions with the sport, she noticed that I poured his coffee from the karafe placed on our table, added the sugar and creamer and stirred....then watched for it to get low again in order to do this again.  I only "noticed" I was doing it because her husband "noticed" and suggested that it would be awfully nice if his wife treated him as well.  My dominant beamed and told him I'd give her lessons and she cut a joke that let us know it wasn't happening over ANYbody's dead body....lol.

Sunshine


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 6:20:49 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Porcelaine:  Do you want authenticity, or just fun and games with a phony "Asian" flare?  Are you seeking to incorporate a Japanese ritual into WIIWD (and by the way, the lumping of "Geisha" with "Asian" is a serious error in understanding any of the wildly diverse and totally unrelated cultures of Asia)?  Perhaps one could have their submissive study the Tea Service.  Of course, the Dominant would have to take part, as the audience/patrons in the way of Tea are as important as the server.  And it is totally non sexual, meditative and thoughtful service with a deep tradition that I as a Western non Japanese male (even with years of study) do not pretend to understand.  But it could be a start. 

I wouldn't do it however because were I a Tea Master, or a Geisha teacher, or any of the myriad of "living treasures" that teach Japanese ways in Japan, I might find your question at least amusing, and at worst, insulting. 

And LaM, while nyotamori sounds fun and looks lovely, it is of course virtually unknown in traditional Japanese culture, except as an amusing practice that Westerners think has any roots in Japan.  It is a modern concept, almost unknown in Japan. 

Sorry to sprinkle rain on everyone's fun, but in fact I find this cultural imperialism of Americans insulting...that we can borrow from 5000 year old traditions to make our B/D/S/M games more fun smacks of arrogance.

E.


It is a pity that you were unable to grasp the meaning behind the question and felt implored to gallop in on your moral high horse to denounce a sincere question. Perhaps while riding you failed to notice the small conjunction that was neatly placed between the word Geisha "and" Asian Culture. I am well aware that the two are not one in the same. Before you attempt to correct someone, be certain you are well versed in your audience. But since you felt compelled to do so, please allow me to state you are incorrect and if anyone has behaved in an arrogant manner it was most decidedly you.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 6:23:40 PM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		What a lovely field of study you have chosen porcelaine, the "tea ceremony" has arisen out of the Zen traditions of, Myoan Eisai (Senko Kokushi 1141-1215). This is the monk that brought tea (and also founded Zen) to Japan in 1191. So I am sure you can see from this that the ceremony is hardly 1000's of years old and varied in form and is indeed a vital practise today as well. I would recommend a thorough study of his life and teachings to help focus your sensibilities on the nature of the tea ceremony, from there I am sure you will find the right teacher for you. Best of luck.

*edited for spelling

< Message edited by MistressWolfen -- 9/2/2006 6:24:47 PM >

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Quoth the raven

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 6:23:41 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

I knew a service submissive that wanted to learn the tea ceremony from an actual Japanese tea mistress. The woman didn't take her seriously, and the girl had to prove her dedication before she would even consider taking her on as a student. And the course was not FREE.

I realize quite well, that this is an ancient art, and should be given the respect it deserves. And it is PURELY about art and service, not about being a "pillow girl".

Which is why I find it so attractive. It's extraordinary.


I recently discovered a number of Japanese organizations that do offer courses in tea ceremony and other areas that submissives may find of interest. This was one of the reasons the question was posed. It is wonderful when we are able to share information in an open environment where all parties benefit in some capacity.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Homestead)
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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 7:10:40 PM   
Domnumberone


Posts: 18
Joined: 8/31/2006
Status: offline 		Japan is a place i would love to visit, i have been to other asian countries but never had the pleasure of Japan. However i know the art of BDSM there is somewhat different to most peoples concept of it in the weastern world.
I have spoken with BDSM enthusiasts who have visited and hear amazing stories. I have seen movies produced from there and have to admire their beautiful photography and especialy their lighting techniques.
I think Asia is a much more spiritual place on the earth than the west so its no surprise that the art of BDSM is a much more mystical, spiritual and intence art.
Its quite strange really though, Japan is from what i understand alone in Asia with its understanding and exercise of BDSM. Why would that be do you think?

Mark

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 7:45:48 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

I must that I have always been overawed by rites and rituals of all kinds.  My Dominant and I share that interest.  It would be lovely to find a place(s) where this kind of ritual training was offered.  There would be one submissive here who would happily sign up for classes.



If you'd like me to see what I can find I don't mind. As I previously mentioned I've recently stumbled upon some resources. Please let me know where your interests rests and the preferred location for study. It sounds like your owner is most fortunate to have a dutiful and pleasant servant.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 7:55:20 PM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

If you'd like me to see what I can find I don't mind. As I previously mentioned I've recently stumbled upon some resources. Please let me know where your interests rests and the preferred location for study. It sounds like your owner is most fortunate to have a dutiful and pleasant servant.

porcelaine


Porcelaine,

If you know of anything in the NJ/NY/Philadelphia area, I'd be most grateful if you would share them with me.  As far as "dutiful and pleasant servant"....lol....I could only wish.  I'm more like a stubborn wench.  Just ask him!

Sunshine


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 8:07:23 PM   
bluerskies


Posts: 5
Joined: 10/14/2005
Status: offline 		Oh my goodness! I know this will just "smack of arrogance" and perhaps ignorance too--but maybe this explains why I'm so drawn to the Memiors of a Geisha movie-I think it's beautiful.  Can anyone suggest any links that directly speak of this kind of service?  In english would be nice as well. =o)

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 8:25:41 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

Porcelaine,

If you know of anything in the NJ/NY/Philadelphia area, I'd be most grateful if you would share them with me.  As far as "dutiful and pleasant servant"....lol....I could only wish.  I'm more like a stubborn wench.  Just ask him!



Ask and you shall receive!

Your search should begin with the Consulate General of Japan. They have offices in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Anchorage, Honolulu, Houston, New Orleans, Chicago, Detroit, Boston, New York, Atlanta, and Miami.

Here's the url for the website:

http://www.us.emb-japan.go.jp/jicc/consulat.htm

Select your state and click on events. You will see a full schedule of events taking place in and around the city. Be sure to look at the links page.

Your second stop is The National Association of Japan-America Societies. They have offices in Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, Washington, Washington, D.C., Wisconsin, and Ontario.

Here's the url for the website:

http://www.us-japan.org/resources/societies.html

Click on your respective state and peruse the numerous educational offerings available. Both organizations provide instruction to the general public.

Lastly, I'm providing a list of well known Japanese Gardens in North America and Canada. You may view the full listing here:

http://www.a-japanese-garden.com/famous-japanese-gardens.php

I hope the information listed above will be of assistance for those that would like to learn more about Japanese culture and partake in certain aspects in your own private service. Thank you for the wonderful feedback.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 8:38:38 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		There was a scene about a tea ceremony in the mini series "Shogun" a number of years back. The strong D/s themes in that series are what really got me interested in this whole discipline.

The cinematography and story line was simply stunning.

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RE: Geisha and Asian Culture - 9/2/2006 8:54:50 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		I knew a little harsh truth would bring out the crybabies.  But first, Homestead:

quote:

  I realize quite well, that this is an ancient art, and should be given the respect it deserves. And it is PURELY about art and service, not about being a "pillow girl".

Which is why I find it so attractive. It's extraordinary.



We agree, Homestead, and I am sorry if I in error "lumped" you in the "Oh my girl is a Geisha that's so cool" crowd.

And I made a mistake, which I'll readily admit.  I meant to say 500 years of history and I typed and didn't catch the extra 0.  But my point stands -- 500 years or 5000, those of you who would borrow from another culture because its "cool" and it will make your bouncy bouncy games more exotic should think seriously about your lack of respect for other cultures.

Because apparently this board is filled with Japan scholars (and gee...I only live with one) let me give a brief summary of what I believe to be the history of Geisha.   Geisha have their roots in female entertainers such as the Saburuko of the 7th century and the Shirabyoshi of the early 13th century. These women singers and dancers would perform for the nobility and were accorded high rank and status.  This tradition, combined with the walled-in pleasure quarters of the Edo period, refined the culture of the Geisha.  Like so many aspects of Japanese culture, the pleasure worlds and the Geisha were modelled after the serving girls of the royal houses of the Ming Dynasty China.

Now, LaM, I stand by my comments.  First, don't twist my words.  I said that your fantasy of eating sushi off a naked girl was virtually unknown in Japan.  In fact, it is known:   as the stuff of modern yakuza legend and the fantasies of horny Americans. 

You sent us 3 websites to prove you right?  Lets look at those websites.  The first, in Spanish, has NO reference to where the video originated.  I see two Asian men (hard to tell if they are Japanese at all) and an Asian girl and a lot of seafood.  What does that prove?  By the way, this appears to be a stroke website for adolescent boys.  I'm sure that it is entirely reliable. 

I'm working on translating the two Japanese pages to see what they say (I'm sorry my Japanese is slow.  Perhaps you'll share your translations with us?)  It is pretty clear however that you cited as "fact" a website that is basically a sex fantasy store.  You might as well cite the Weekly World News for your facts.  See the page which you cited to prove your point?  It is labelled 女体盛り?  It says that it is basically a collection of sex fantasies.  I'm sure tho that you know better and will illuminate that this is in fact a respected Japanese historical cultural journal.

E.

(Edited to clean up font problems between Japanese and English.  By the way, in the post above I quote a few Japanese characters in addressing LaM.  If you can't read them, or if my post has a lot of boxes or ???? in it, I'm sorry.  You probably need to install MS Japanese if you want to see them. )
 

< Message edited by Emperor1956 -- 9/2/2006 9:14:15 PM >

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 20
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