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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 6:25:41 AM

WhipTheHip

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I don't know the particulars, but the croc in question might just have
eaten a big meal, it might have been semi-tame. Steve might have
had a lot of experience with this particular croc.

I trust Steve's judgment with crocs. It is probably not a good idea
to swim with sting rays in shallow water. Steve's expertise was not with
stingrays. Even so, it was a really freak accident. It is very, very
unlikely that Steve would have died from a croc, a snake or spider.

The alligator I fed out of my hand, had been fed by many people for
twenty years, lived in a public park, and had never threatened anyone.
When I fed it, alligators were a protected species. At the time, I didn't
know it was against the law, or that it could be harmful to the alligator.

Alligators that are fed lose their fear of man. So do stray cats.
But I really wonder if alligators that were fed really become more
dangerous and more aggressive to humans. It seemed to me
that the alligator that I fed became tame. It would get out of
water and stand on its hind legs and tail and beg for food, at
which point it stood as tall as me. It never made a threatening
move. It let me pet its hard snout, and squish its back. It
was ten feet long.

A mother alligator carries its young in its mouth.

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 6:31:06 AM

gooddogbenji

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quote:

Even so, it was a really freak accident. It is very, very unlikely that Steve would have died from a croc, a snake or spider.

So both were really really unlikely. Making them equally unlikely.

Yours,

benji

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 6:37:16 AM

MistressWolfen

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Apologies to the OP, but this is driving me crazy. Whip? your signature line (Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.--Calvin) is actually one of Einstiens' thoughts....Calvin did however say;

I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels.
John Calvin
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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 6:37:30 AM

WhipTheHip

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> the skewers might break and the cantaloupe might fall.

The heads of babies don't fall off this easily.

> Some crocs are so old and placid that it's unusual for them to
> react strongly to anything, but a small plump young mammal,
> eg, a "human pinky", could be a tempting enough morsel to
> provoke a feeding response even in a pretty quiet animal.

Maybe this croc had just been fed?   Maybe, Steve knew its
temperment.   Maybe, this croc was semi-tame. It is wrong
to judge without knowing all the particulars. I would give
Steve the benefit of the doubt.   The fact is nothing happened.
He could have done what he did a million times, and nothing
ever would have happpened. Everytime you get in a car
you can be hit by another car and killed.   Everytime you
take a child in a car or an airplane you are endangering its
life.    The odds of Steve's baby being injured were
probably smaller than 100,000 to one.

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 6:42:44 AM

gooddogbenji

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Whip, if you had a baby, and it was crying, would you shake it?

In the same way, would you jerk it suddenly in one direction? Babies have GIANT heads compared to the rest of their bodies, and very little muscle built up around them. You jerk that baby, and while the head may stay on, you could quite well do damage. Not kill, but damage.

That's why we have baby seats in cars - to prevent permanent damage.

Yours,

benji

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 6:52:46 AM

WhipTheHip

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen
Apologies to the OP, but this is driving me crazy. Whip? your signature line (Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.--Calvin) is actually one of Einstiens' thoughts....Calvin did however say;
I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels.
John Calvin

Yeah, I noticed this quote attributed to Einstien in someone else's sig here,
but it sure sounds like something Calvin would have said. The Calvin from
Calvin & Hobbes . It sure is a lot funnier coming from Calvin, than Einstein.
On the other hand, John Calvin never said anything funny.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.”

Calvin: I'm a genius, but I'm a misunderstood genius.
Hobbes: What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin: Nobody understands my genius.

“Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.”

"Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.”

“Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words.”

“Well, remember what you said, because in a day or two, I'll have a witty and blistering retort! You'll be devastated THEN!”

Who was the first guy that look at a cow and said," I think that I'll drink whatever comes out of those things when I squeeze them?”

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 9/5/2006 6:58:04 AM >

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 7:01:16 AM

twicehappy

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I trade S&P 500 futures. Trading is a lot riskier than
dealing with most wild animals. And I trust wild animals
a lot more than I do humans.

ROFLMMFAO.........

If you're laughing at what I think you are, I'll agree!

Dear perverted peeing pup, i started foaming at the mouth, i think you gave me rabies, then i just started laughing like a hyena. Can you send me they name of your vet?

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 7:02:40 AM

JohnSteed1967

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From: Columbia SC
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Steve Irwin.....Hmmmm...what to say.....I feell really bad for his wife and kids....but for him I have to say DUMB ASS.

    I mean look at Marlin Perkins from Wild Kingdom, Did old Marlin get out there and wrestle the tigers and lions and such to the ground? Hell No, He sent Jim out or in years later Steve. Marlin was always safe in the truck or back at command central.

   Come on look at Zigfriend and Roy, You have a wild animal, its dangerous, it feels threatened and ZAP some body is bleeding or dead.

   Maybe if nothing else Steve Irwin's life will serve as a warning to others. Hell no one else has died of a stingray attack since 1945!

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 28

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 7:04:23 AM

gooddogbenji

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From: Toronto
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So why not attribute it to Bill Watterson, the writer of Calvin and Hobbes?

Calvin is, after all, a fictional character, so you did not really even try to give legitimate credit.

Yours

benji

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 7:06:24 AM

gooddogbenji

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From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

Dear perverted peeing pup, i started foaming at the mouth, i think you gave me rabies, then i just started laughing like a hyena. Can you send me they name of your vet?

I would, but he told me that my reaction was normal, and that anything else would indicate insanity. Really, there's nothing that he wants to do about it anyway, as that would only encourage it.

Yours,

benji

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Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 7:07:37 AM

twicehappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

So what does that have to do with the price of carrots in Calcutta?

Price of Vegetables in Calcutta

Hyderabad, April 6: “Even carrots and ladies’ fingers were sold at Rs 4 per kg, driving farmers to nervous breakdown,” said Gopal Kumar Shetty, a vegetable wholesaler at Monda market.

By G.S. RADHAKRISHNA

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Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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Post #: 31

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 7:11:06 AM

gooddogbenji

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And Hyderabad has what to do with Calcutta? I was asking a specific question, Twice, and if you can't answer that, please be kind enough to stay out of a serious discussion.

Now, does anyone know today's market prices on carrots in Calcutta?????

Yours,

benji

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Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

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Post #: 32

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 8:10:34 AM

MistressWolfen

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I love the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon, you did realise the characters' were named after two philosophers; John Calvin and Thomas Hobbes? This was deliberate and if you know these philsopher's works you will appreciate Watterson's creation even more.

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Post #: 33

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 12:47:46 PM

Lordandmaster

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Whip, "precise" and "roughly" don't belong in the same statement. As a physicist, you should know that.

Anyway, what's your point? I was AGREEING with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Actually, I was being quite precise. Roughly 50 people have been
killed in Florida by alligators in the last 100 hundred years.

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Post #: 34

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 1:09:48 PM

LaTigresse

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Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

And Hyderabad has what to do with Calcutta? I was asking a specific question, Twice, and if you can't answer that, please be kind enough to stay out of a serious discussion.

Now, does anyone know today's market prices on carrots in Calcutta?????

Yours,

benji

$12.95 for a 10# bag.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 1:11:26 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Maybe this croc had just been fed? Maybe, Steve knew its
temperment. Maybe, this croc was semi-tame.

Even if all those things were true, which they mostly were, it is still possible for a feeding response to be provoked in such an animal. Feeding response is completely different from defensive behavior. A completely tame crocodilian may still evince a feeding response and mistake a human hand for a food item if it is improperly presented. Avery well fed crocodilian may do the same thing, though it may abandon the prey once it is secured. Crocs like their food, and even a lazy, well fed one is going to be potentially quite interested in what its handler is carrying.

quote:

It is wrong to judge without knowing all the particulars.

I've been working with crocodilians for a long time, and I did know the particulars in this case. Croc research is a pretty small field, and we have global meetings. The overwhelming consensus of professional opinion in this field on the subject of baby plus croc is that it was a very unwise and unprofessional act no matter how experienced the handler is and how tame/placid the croc is.

One of the messages I've tried to convey in my educational efforts is that television does it wrong. Animal handlers are *not* Superman or Jungle Jane. We are professionals with a specific skill set that includes safety protocols and a deep understanding of animal behavior and body language that lets us do our work at close quarters because we have to. Anyone can learn this skill set. The image that handlers like to hype of themselves is that they are special people for having "mastery" of these animals. The reality is that it isn't even that exciting. Behavioral management of crocodilians is a science as much as an art, and any zookeeper can learn it. In fact any zookeeper had better learn it, because croc cages need cleaning and it's completely impractical to physically move them on a regular basis.

The problems happen when animal handlers start believing their own hype. Sure, we can do stuff with wild animals that makes the crowd gasp. Big whoopee. That doesn't make us superpowered beings who are immune to getting hurt, or worse, to getting other people hurt, if something goes wrong and an animal does something unexpected, perhaps in response to stimuli you don't know about or an environmental factor that isn't under your control. Shit happens. Overconfidence equals injury and death in this profession, and that's an equation you can count on.

I've been in situations where I've been handling some critter or other that could kill me, or standing as backup to another handler, and shit happened. In one case it was an unexpected thunderclap that set some male gators off. In a few more cases it was mechanical noises or vibrations caused by a car wreck outside or heavy machinery being started up that upset the animals. I've had the power fail and leave me in pitch darkness with a rattlesnake in my hands. I've seen long term captive animals go bugfuck nuts on their handlers for no apparent reason. Sometimes you can identify the stimulus that triggered the behaviior, especially when it's obvious (like the car crash outside) and sometimes you just don't know. Sometimes you find out on vet exam or on necropsy that the animal was in pain from a condition that wasn't initially obvious. An animal that you sincerely believe will remain placid and calm around you may not always do so if something happens to trigger another aspect of its behavior.

Professionals who respect safety protocol understand clearly that no matter what you are doing with an animal, sometimes shit happens. If you are doing something stupid at the time that shit happens and the animal reacts to something you didn't expect, or in a way that is behaviorally uncharacteristic for the species but well within its physical capability, somebody's going to get hurt. There's just no way around that.

We have the right to risk ourselves. But we don't have the right to put other people at risk. Especially very little people who can't make those decisions for themselves.

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 9/5/2006 1:12:56 PM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 1:25:06 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Alligators that are fed lose their fear of man. So do stray cats.
But I really wonder if alligators that were fed really become more
dangerous and more aggressive to humans.

Yes and no. A gator doesn't differentiate between a human hand and the food that's in the hand. It's all made of meat, it all smells like warm mammal, and a hungry animal is likely to explore potential food with its mouth. That's cute in a puppy, less so in a 10' gator. A hungry gator that has been taught that humans feed it will approach a human and "ask" to be fed with open mouth. If it does not get fed, it may charge or rush the human to get at the food that it believes to be there, depending on its confidence level and how closely the human has approached.

quote:

It seemed to me that the alligator that I fed became tame. It would get out of
water and stand on its hind legs and tail and beg for food, at
which point it stood as tall as me. It never made a threatening
move. It let me pet its hard snout, and squish its back. It
was ten feet long.

The gator stood up on its hind legs like Godzilla? Er, their morphology doesn't quite support that. They can raise themselves up from the water a ways, but it's not exactly a stand.

Gators are fun to interact with and do readily become habituated to this extent, but a wild gator that approaches humans for food is legally condemned to death. The fact is that this animal is not a danger to anyone who behaves in a knowledgeable way around it, but most people are utter idiots and will panic at its approach. So yes, they are in danger when they behave foolishly around a habituated wild animal. So your local wildlife officers will shoot the animal the moment they become aware that it has approached humans or human habitation without fear.

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 1:50:54 PM

gooddogbenji

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

And Hyderabad has what to do with Calcutta? I was asking a specific question, Twice, and if you can't answer that, please be kind enough to stay out of a serious discussion.

Now, does anyone know today's market prices on carrots in Calcutta?????

Yours,

benji

$12.95 for a 10# bag.

LaT,

Could you reference that for me, please?

Yours,

benji

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Post #: 38

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 2:01:38 PM

LaTigresse

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Dear benji,

Most certainly.

LaT

http://www.collarchat.com/m_572249/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#572249

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 39

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/5/2006 2:15:37 PM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

Wow. Very impressive research!

Yours,

benji

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Post #: 40

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