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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/9/2006 5:04:53 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: evyy

i think that was proved when he was killed by a sting ray, which is one of the least aggresive animals around.

I used to spearfish for stingrays off the coast of California. A stingray buries itself in the sand, leaving it's two eyes up to watch what is going on. Should it sense a dead fish floating nearby, it will rise out of the sand and gum the dead fish with it's mouth full of what feels like the hard side of Velcro. They will sometimes eat fish that are alive, but they dont really corner very effectively, have a relatively low top end, and rely on either surprise or the prey is sick or wounded.

The tail on the ones we have here, which range up to 4 feet wide or so, in my experience, are about 3 feet long. I presume it is similar with Australian ones in terms of the mechanics of their stinger. The tails here are about 2-3 feet long, the stinger is about six inches away from the part of the stingray the tail sticks out of. The stinger itself ratchets up suddenly and pokes things over the top of the stingray. The most common sting against humans results when they step on one and get the venom (painfully, generally non-toxic) covered (in its own breakable membrane) stinger (about 4 inches long) stabbing them in the ankle. The stingray then swims off.

From what I have read, Steve Irwin was snorkelling in shallow water, and got a stingray stinger in the center of his chest, which pierced his heart. A tragic death, and I would refer to it as freakish based on what I know about the fearsome danger posed by stingrays.

I saw his show a few times, and I was generally impressed with his work. He introduced aspects of our world which most people either do not know about or fear, and showed them that with the proper safety techniques there is relatively little to fear. There is, however, no safe way to do a dangerous thing. His death demonstrates the truth of this maxim.

My condolences go out to his family.

Sinergy

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(in reply to evyy)

Post #: 101

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/9/2006 6:57:59 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

Are you aware that you may be condemning these animals to death with your actions?

Truly wild alligators tend to be "live and let live" animals that don't get into too much trouble with humans because they tend to avoid them. But crocodilians are very capable of learning, and if they become human habituated and learn to associate human contact with food they evince behavior patterns that get them into very deep trouble very quickly. Basically they lose their natural wariness of people and begin to approach people for food. That's the point at which these habituated animals are reported to the local wildlife agency because they scare somebody with their approach.

This is a fact of animal behavior not alot of people understand. A couple weeks ago I took the family on a camping trip to the national parks. Because of that visit, it was reinforced to my little ones the effects of feeding the wildlife. It seems so cute to feed the chipmunks or squirrels. But as you say... doing that causes the animal to associate human's as a giver of food... and instead of going about collecting their natural food and storing it... they get this human food and try to store it. Winter comes and this so called stash is spoiled and the animal could very likely starve in the harsh winter of the mountains.

Of course there is also other issues that such activity causes. Sometimes good intentions have the worse of consequences.

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Post #: 102

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/9/2006 7:01:44 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
He just likes blowing a lot of smoke out his ass.

If he is ... I suspect you are the smoke.

editted to add...

Or would that be Gas?!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 9/9/2006 7:02:12 PM >

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Post #: 103

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/9/2006 7:41:05 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
This is a fact of animal behavior not alot of people understand. A couple weeks ago I took the family on a camping trip to the national parks. Because of that visit, it was reinforced to my little ones the effects of feeding the wildlife. It seems so cute to feed the chipmunks or squirrels. But as you say... doing that causes the animal to associate human's as a giver of food... and instead of going about collecting their natural food and storing it... they get this human food and try to store it. Winter comes and this so called stash is spoiled and the animal could very likely starve in the harsh winter of the mountains.

Of course there is also other issues that such activity causes. Sometimes good intentions have the worse of consequences.

Pretty much, yeah. Learned dependency on human handouts is not specifically an issue with gators. The problem with wild gators that become human habituated is that they become a potential danger to people and pets because they lose their fear of humans and associate people with food. The sight and sound of a person approaching becomes a dinner bell as far as the gator is concerned. A gator that is conditioned this way may approach humans quite enthusiastically for food. Crocodilians don't differentiate well between the food and hand that holds the food, and what may be cute in a puppy dog that jumps up and knocks you down if you're carrying a sandwich is not cute from an adult alligator. They're not hugely difficult to outmaneuver even when they do approach you with dinner in mind, but such encounters between wildlife and people are not healthy for either.

It's a similar story with bears that are fed by people in a park. Except that gators do not have their natural food gathering strategies altered or interrupted by human feeding as mammals sometimes can. The harm you're doing to the gator by feeding it is a likely death sentence that must be carried out either by Fish and Wildlife officers or licensed trappers, the vast majority of which are hide hunters and not relocators or rescuers. A gator that is fed by humans won't forget how to find food in the wild, but it will remember that people equals food and its subsequent habituated behavior will probably get it killed.

There are designated legal procedures that go into effect when any citizen files a complaint with F&W about an "aggressive" alligator that is over four feet long. The most common outcome is a death sentence for the animal. As you can imagine, a "begging" gator that approaches people enthusiastically for food is going to inspire such a complaint.

Do not feed the gators.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 104

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/9/2006 7:51:31 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

Do not feed the gators.

I would say that applies to Wild Life in general..... just don't feed them! keep well away from them as well. Respect their personal space...

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Post #: 105

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/9/2006 8:04:58 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I would say that applies to Wild Life in general..... just don't feed them! keep well away from them as well. Respect their personal space...

That is a tremendously fine idea.

Unfortunately, in order to educate people about animals and to make people care about them, Steve Irwin constantly approached, poked, prodded, grabbed, jumped on, handled and otherwise harrassed the wildlife. He definitely succeeded in making people care about them and in achieving positive goals for their conservation. That's good. Whether he meant to or not, he also created the cult of the animal handler as superhero, and got the idea firmly entrenched in American culture that it's okay and even "cool" to mess with the wildlife. That's not so good. So the rest of us in the wildlife field have our jobs cut out for us to continue the good things that he did as well as to try to undo some of the harm.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 106

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/9/2006 9:24:47 PM

NastyDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I would say that applies to Wild Life in general..... just don't feed them! keep well away from them as well. Respect their personal space...

That is a tremendously fine idea.

Steve Irwin was an adventuresome charismatic and loveable nature enthusiast and it is most unfortunate his life tragically ended doing what he loved, being among wild undomesticated animals.

I agree in a good wildlife management philosophy of not feeding them by human hand, discarded human food, or in any other way that will impact their own abilities to feed. They are part of the food chain and changing their food sources would likely result in overpopulations of other species within the same ecosystems, and result is a spiral effect.

Steve was not feeding the stingray from what I understand and simply got too close to it. If the ray was flat on the bottom then Steve would have had to be within a foot or so of it, and above it. It was certainly a freak incident, out of the norm, but indeed very possible as we have witnessed.

I personally had issues with Steve having his one year old son in close proximity to a crocodile's food in his other hand... it was very Houdini'ish behavior from this remarkable man. I've seen a movie clip put together of various croc bites on Steve, snakes biting Steve, and wild hogs biting Steve... so this was an acceptable risk in Steve's mind apparently. Many would argue that if Steve was operating with less concern or was complacent in any way, that he deserved what happened.

This is not true, nobody deserves to die that way, nor did the fisherman in Florida who was speared through the chest by a spearfish that jumped out of the water across the bow of his boat. As long as humans mingle with wildlife in their natural habitats, there will always be incidents of injury and death to humans.

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Post #: 107

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/10/2006 4:20:34 AM

wingie

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Thank You. I love Qld, the sea, and the bush. i have travelled, seen America, see different things, but remain always an Aussie. I grew up with the bush as my backyard. Though ‘unorthodox’, Steve did teach M/many about nature.

To think years ago, it was a known practise to ‘cull’ crocodiles up Far North, and if a few were killed for the sake of sport, well, a blind eye was often used. Now, even most everyday P/people would find the thought appalling.

i grew up with a snake’s skin on my wall, after my grandpa found it in scrubland. It would set my imagination alight knowing an animal that was the size of my bedroom wall once had that skin. Strangely, i don’t fear snakes, i believe knowing what they are capable of makes O/one more respecting of a species.

i just saw an interview Steve once did, and some of the initiatives he started, definitely make me think. i may have cringed at times how other’s may have perceived Aussies, but i did/do respect his legacy. i think that will be the most telling.

One more thing i did gain from my grandpa was to respect the dead and to speak no ill. Enough said.

wingie

my condolences also go out to Peter Brock's family.

Edited to add - "It matters not how a man dies, but how he lives. The act of dying is not of importance, it last so short a time." - Samual Johnson - A rather fitting quote, and one of my favourites

< Message edited by wingie -- 9/10/2006 5:06:08 AM >

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Post #: 108

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/10/2006 11:36:06 AM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy
Steve was not feeding the stingray from what I understand and simply got too close to it. If the ray was flat on the bottom then Steve would have had to be within a foot or so of it, and above it. It was certainly a freak incident, out of the norm, but indeed very possible as we have witnessed.

The ray was in shallow water, cited as 1.5 meters (less than 5 feet) and he was swimming directly over it while the camera was in front. The fact that it reacted defensively was a bit unusual for this normally placid species, but well within their range of normal and expected reaction when they feel "boxed in" or trapped. The combination of the shallow water, the person in front and the person right on top were contributing factors to triggering the behavior.

The freak part of this incident wasn't that the ray reacted defensively, but that Irwin's body was positioned in such a way that the barb pierced his heart. Just a few inches to either side and the outcome wouldn't have been quite so grim. A ray spine to the leg or shoulder is no fun, and there's been at least one death recorded from a femoral artery puncture and subsequent bleed-out, but it's survivable.

(in reply to NastyDaddy)

Post #: 109

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/10/2006 12:01:58 PM

Najakcharmer

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Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
The tail on the ones we have here, which range up to 4 feet wide or so, in my experience, are about 3 feet long. I presume it is similar with Australian ones in terms of the mechanics of their stinger. The tails here are about 2-3 feet long, the stinger is about six inches away from the part of the stingray the tail sticks out of. The stinger itself ratchets up suddenly and pokes things over the top of the stingray. The most common sting against humans results when they step on one and get the venom (painfully, generally non-toxic) covered (in its own breakable membrane) stinger (about 4 inches long) stabbing them in the ankle. The stingray then swims off.

The species that Irwin was diving with at the time were bull rays. Those suckers are a lot bigger than 4 feet. http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=5011

Venom is by definition toxic, but ray venom isn't usually fatal to humans. Nasty and incredibly painful, but survivable. http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic556.htm Fish toxin (or its domiant element) is a large, globular protein that tends to unfold rapidly when exposed to heat, so one of the most effective treatment for marine envenomation is hot water.

My guess for mechanism of death would parallel this case: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2593906&dopt=Abstract

From http://www.potamotrygon.de/fremdes/stingray%20article.htm

"All stingray venoms are very similar. They contain serotonin, 5-nucleotidase, and phosphodiesterase. The latter two enzymes are responsible for the
necrosis and tissue breakdown seen in stingray envenomations; serotonin is the cause of inexorable pain in the region of the injury. These actions will continue unabated if left untreated. Minor, untreated stings, particularly among hobbyists, often result in lesions resembling bacterial cellulitis. Since the serotonin in stingray venoms produces severe and immediate onset of local pain, any sting that is relatively free of pain indicates that no actual envenomation occurred and the ``lucky" victim endured a ``dry" sting. This may be due to one or more of several reasons: the sheath was previously ruptured, releasing its venom store; the sheath failed to penetrate the wound; the sheath failed to rupture, so the venom remained contained; or, the spine had been broken off previously. But for those people who receive a dose of venom along with the physical trauma of being hit, the tissue necrosis and subsequent secondary bacterial infection that occurs as a result is extremely difficult to treat; and many months and several courses of intravenous antibiotics may be necessary."

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 110

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 9/10/2006 12:05:01 PM

Cristalin

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i cryed for him as i did a few years ago for lady Di...such a waste...

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 111

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 10/7/2006 11:56:04 PM

enigmaticpoet

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Steve erwin was a wonderful man and i have had the priveledge of actually being freinds with him and he has taken in one of my most beloved pets when i moved to queensland, i think he is truly an icon of what a true greenpeace person should have been like and not like the ones you see today. Instead of chaining yourself to a tree or running into boats that would kill you, why not spend your time advertising your goal worldwide and MAKE people notice your cause much like he did. As for the risks well there is not a day that goes by when i think steve would have not died again if he could make the choice, he would have rather died doing what he done and beleived in then of old age and i truly hope his daughter will continue his cause and make this country remember the selfless man who captured many hearts.

(in reply to NastyDaddy)

Post #: 112

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 10/8/2006 9:05:22 AM

LTRsubNW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
You are hallucinating.    There were three people killed in Florida by alligator attacks this year.
They were all highly reported. It was a highly unusual year, and a total aberation. Under 60 people
have died from alligator attacks in the last 60 years.    Out of a very huge number of alligators in
the state of Florida, there are a few that can be dangerous.   That is the nature of the gene pool.
After you've verified that just three people were killed by alligators this year in Florida, check-out
how many Floridians were killed by homo sapiens.    You are much safer staying away from
humans than you are from staying away from alligators.

(Fascinating...it's actually difficult to respond appropriately to this)

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 10/8/2006 9:07:29 AM >

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 113

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 10/8/2006 2:39:21 PM

windchymes

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All I know is that there is a big empty hole in the world with him gone.

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RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 10/12/2006 7:44:53 PM

atropa7

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As a reptile enthusiast, I would rather not have herps in the public eye if they are showcased with a flagrant disregard for safety. This coupled with his disinformation (I've found factual errors in every single episode involving Irwin that I've ever watched) makes me despise his TV show and his rabid fans.

Was he a decent man? Sure
Am I sorry that his family lost him? Absolutely

Do I have any respect for him as a reptile enthusiast or professional? Absolutely not.

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Post #: 115

RE: Steve Irwin did not take much risk! - 10/12/2006 8:03:46 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
My guess is that he did not have that kind
of experience with stingrays. You can sometimes feel
a little overconfident and invincible.

I think the tiger attack on Roy in Las Vegas needs to be
understood, and the bear attack on two naturalists in
Alaska.

Hello A/all,

I am a trifle puzzled by this thread.

Steve Irwin had a dangerous career. He dealt extensively with wild animals which, by their very nature, are unpredictable.

Stingrays burrow themselves in the sand (I used to spearfish for them) and have one defense when attacked, which is to throw their stinger up over themselves. Steve Irwin happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I feel bad for his family as well.

I am not sure what bear attack you are referring to, but when I was up in Alaska in 2001, a 13.5 foot (standing) grizzly bear who had killed several people, including one man who put 4 .38 slugs into it. The grizzly bear was eventually killed by a seasoned hiker armed with a .44 automag who put 7 slugs into the bear before it stopped charging him. The partially digested remains of armed hiker #1 were found in it's stomach.

Tigers are wild animals. They kill their prey by grabbing it around the neck and breaking it's spine. Seigfriend and Roy trained a few inbred white ones, and eventually their lottery number got picked and the wildness came out. I am happy Roy was not killed, but would not be overly shocked if he had been.

There really is no safe way to do something that is dangerous.

"On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everybody drops to zero"
Tyler Durden, Fight Club.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 116

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