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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 1:12:45 AM   
seeksfemslave


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I cant defend Israel's military excess as we have just witnessed in Lebanon, I dont support the Arab's sending suicide "martyrs" into shopping malls and on buses in Israel but Northern Gent really, do you ever re read your posts after you have written them.

You ask... who are the terrorists... well, how about those who crashed aeroplanes into buildings killing 3000 odd mostly innocent people. Or those who bombed trains in Spain/ UK or bars in was it Indonesia.
Please dont post explanations as to why the perpetrators were driven to do this.

It is still TERRORISM

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 1:30:03 AM   
NorthernGent


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You may be lost in a can't see the woods for the trees scenario.

The issue is who are "those" you refer to and what makes them such a threat to act as a catalyst for a war on terror?

Regards

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 1:58:15 AM   
seeksfemslave


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The political problems that give rise to terrorism are there for anyone to at least see and then depending on their viewpoint support one side or the other.or neither.

If the Islamic fundemantalists were to apply a considered more logical approach they would realise that the methods of terrorism that they have chosen to use to support their cause will produce exactly the opposite of what they want.
In an ideal world negotiation should suffice, but in the real world it doesnt always work. Conflict is then  likely to follow. Deliberately targetting innocents can only make that conflict worse. Especially in the 24 hour visual news media saturated world we live in today.

In my opinion NG your solutions/opinions are stuck in the ideal world groove.

Incidently I am well aware that the US in particular, by support of authoritarian regimes and interfering in the results of elections where the result was not to their liking has definately helped  the downward spiral. to violence. The response to the recent Hamas party electoral victory shows that. If the US govnt. was genuinely as freedom loving as they proclaim they would note the victory and adjust their Foreign Policy accordingly.
Supply of OIL to the west is at the moment non negotiable !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/9/2006 2:11:00 AM >

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 2:11:22 AM   
NorthernGent


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So, reading between the lines, "those" (your term) have become the "Islamic fundamentalists".

1)  Islamic fundamentalists are not some sort of new invention - so why the "war on terror" in the last few years?

2) Are you saying that Islamic fundamentalists = terrorists?

3) Do you know anything about terrorist organisations which will support your view that they represent a threat serious enough to act as good reason to declare a war on terror?

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 3:40:29 AM   
seeksfemslave


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NorthenGent asks me
Do you know anything about terrorist organisations which will support your view that they represent a threat serious enough to act as good reason to declare a war on terror?

NG I am beginning to wonder if I am missing something in your posts or more likely you do not understand what you are actually saying. Considering what the Islamic fundamentalists have already done and what, if they can get their hands on nuclear or chemical weapons they might do,  your question just boggles my mind.

Regarding terrorist activity what is your opinion of the bombing, by the IRA , of the Arndale? shopping complex in Manchester.
Admittedly you might argue that given the capitulation to the nationist Irish cause it actually helped to achieve the desired purpose. The Irish question is not solved and in my opinion the next outburst will come from disgruntled Loyalists. We shall see.

Do you believe that Islamic Fundamentalism poses no future threat ?.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/9/2006 3:45:56 AM >

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 3:50:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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The Israeli war of independence effectively caused 750,000 refugees. The Balfour agreement wasn't implimented, the Zionist pre-empted any agreement with the local Arabs, who I admit, were not happy with the proposals.

However, my problem is not with Israel's existence but that the way it reacts, which has and does create the terrorists it fights, just like the West does as a whole. Israel effectively created Hezzbollah when it occupied lebanon the first time, it has strengthened Hezzbollah with its recent over reaction when it targeted civilian infrastructure in an obvious aim to terrorize the civilian population. Look at what Israel does in Gaza, is there any wonder there are suicide attacks? If you are going to be killed by the Israeli army lobbing in shells or as collateral damage in an Israeli extra-judicial assissination by air to ground missile, why not take a few Israelis with you?

You really need to stand back and look at the big picture. You will see while individual terrorist acts appear to be irrational, terrorism isn't irrational, it is plain to see why it exists.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/9/2006 3:56:43 AM >

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 3:56:28 AM   
NorthernGent


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your question just boggles my mind

It certainly appears that way, Seeks.

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 4:05:21 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

Israel effectively created Hezzbollah when it occupied lebanon the first time, it has strengthened Hezzbollah with its recent over reaction when it targeted civilian infrastructure in an obvious aim to terrorize the civilian population. Look at what Israelk does in Gaza, is there any wonder there is suicide attacks. If you are going to be killed by the Israeli army lobbing in shells or as collateral damage in an Israeli extra-judicial assissination by air to ground missile, why not take a few Israelis with you.


Extremely well said..... I couldn't agree more. Israel effectively destroyed a semi pro-western government that's now sympathetic to the positions held by a band of militants that want to revert back to the idealism of the twelfth century.


 - R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 4:37:22 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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Just FYI: In case anyone cares, beyond the simplistic "they hate us because we are free and own big cars."
quote:

the relationship of the American empire and the Israeli state is a special one. It was not always so. Nor will it likely forever be so. Most American political elites supported the Arab states in the late 1940s and early 1950s owing to oil. In 1956 President Eisenhower ordered Israel to withdraw from the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula, which it had invaded and occupied, along with oil-hungry Britain and Nasser-hating France. Israel complied. The present U.S.-Israeli alliance did not emerge until the mid-i960s.. Soviet ties to Egypt and Syria pushed President Johnson closer to Israel. Meanwhile, Israel's fear of Arab threats to eliminate the Jewish state made it eager for U.S. support. The first U.S. offensive weapons systems sale to Israel-the A4 Skyhawk jet deal-was approved in 1965. When, in 1967, Egypt's Nasser closed the Strait of Tiran, the waterway that gave access to Israel's only port on the fled Sea, Israel launched its historic preemptive attack on Egypt and Syria-an attack that was approved by the CIA and the Pentagon during the visit of Meir Amit (Israel's chief of Mossad) on the eve of the action which led to the Six Days' War. The next fall the United States sold Phantom jets to Israel, making this weapon available for the first time to an ally outside of NATO, even before giving it to South Vietnamese forces who were fighting a war in which U.S. soldiers were dying daily. U.S. military sales to Israel were $140 million between 1968 and 1970. This jumped to $1.2 billion from 1971 to 1973. After the Israeli defeat of the Soviet client states of Egypt and Syria in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, U.S. military aid increased still further. In 1974 it totaled $2.57 billion. This massive shift to support for Israel took place not because U.S. officials were drawn to the just cause of the Israeli state but for cold war political and geostrategic reasons. Israel, a small and fragile state under siege, began to look like an important ally to the American empire because of U. S. dependency on foreign oil and fear of Soviet influence in Arab states.
Today Israel-a country of 6.5 million people-receives 33 percent of the entire foreign-aid budget of the American empire ($3 billion a year).
An excerpt from the book "Democracy matters." http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Cornel_West/NewJewishIslamicIdentities.html.
quote:

Both Arab and Jewish extremists are today recklessly pushing Palestine into a futile war. While believing in the defense of legitimate claims, these extremists on each side play into each other's hands. In this reign of terror, the needs and desires of the common man in Palestine are ignored .... We believe that any constructive solution is possible only if it is based on the concern for the welfare and cooperation of both Jews and Arabs in Palestine.
They knew that a new democratic Jewish identity must be forged in the Diaspora that shatters all imperial mentalities and unleashes the prophetic energies of decent, justice-loving Jews and non-Jews.
    M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 9/9/2006 4:40:38 AM >


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(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 4:38:19 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Can someone please explain how a thread "freedom isn't free" about the war on terror (whatever that is) is turned around to Israel?

Intsead of disguising what you really wanted to talk about you should have been honest at the start and just asked people their views on Israel.

Regards


The expression "Freedom isn't Free" refers to my brothers and sisters that have fallen in defense of the freedoms we so much enjoy.  It cost their very life's blood.

I believe that it was your country that subjucated ours and the other 'WOG" collonies.

I believe that it was your contry that caused the split in Ireland.

I believe that it was your country that was given Palestine in trust and didn't protect the Jews but armed the Arabs against them.

I believe that it was your country that supported the taking of the independent nation of Eritreia and gave them to Ethiopia   (we weren't a part of the League of Nations).  This caused a war that still hasn't ended.

The list goes on and on. 

Both the UK and the US have made political mistakes.

As I understand it the War on Terror is exactly that  A war on terror wherever it exists, whest it is a nation state or a political subdivision or a gang of people collected together.

It is easy to blame the US.  We are the "rich guys".  We provided arms and training to countries all over the world.   Hmmmmmm so did the French, British and especially the Russians and Chinese.

This isn't a war about Isreal or our support.  This is a war against a group of religious zealots with extreme views.   Look at the Koran.   It has as its roots the events outlined in the Old Testament and some of the New Testament.   In the Koran Mohammed isn't God, he is a profet, just like Jeasus was (only to a lesser extent).   The Koran outlines a religion of peace.  the zealots have perverted that, just like those of other religions, have perverted that.   In order to pervert it, they had to pick an enemy and they chose the US.

this war has been going on for nearly 3 decades?  Through more than one Democratic or Republican Administration.   We poor dumb Americans have failed to see it.  To attempt to understand it.   Now, since they attacked on our shores, it has woke up this country.  And what is our response?  It must be the fault of a given President or Administration.

Oh and what our esteemed young sailor forgot was events like the Bader - Mainhoff's of the world that were politically Anti-American and killed our troops as well.  Or the Anti-occupation attacks against us following WWII.  It goes on and on.   Now we have a title for it - War on Terror

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:06:48 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Yeah, how did our oil get under their land? What's up with that?


Julia.  What does this have to do with the post?    Oh   you are from California   sorry

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:18:23 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedicat

Read some real news and history. Are you being paid by someone to spout this? Governments are obligated to defend their people you say? So then the people and governments who's countries were given away to Israel are doing just that. Write them a letter of support. If the UN and some other countries decided to give all of north america back in full to the native peoples, would you happily move out?



I wonder if you are being paid by your inbread Queen to spout this?

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:21:39 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Good post Blkfullfig., I referred to terrorism having the opposite effects to those intended earlier. I am no blind supporter of Israel, and I definately think the Arabs have had a raw deal. Unfortunately given recent US governments attitudes the problem in my opinion is  insoluble. It all depends on the determination of the Arabs and changes in US Foreign Policy.
You cant expect Israel to lay down and comply in their own destruction tho' Can you ?

How and if a compromise can be negotiated I do not know.

Mr MeatCleaver I know why terrorism exists
You see it as counterproductive when Israel indulges, you did not post that the same applies when the Arabs  indulge. Why is that ?
In both cases it is wrong and wicked. I do not apply this to armed struggle to right perceived wrongs. Why even our US "allies" may have had a point when they rebelled against we Brits.

I must say Mr Ken your photo looks like a patriotic Brit. who would be only too happy to liberate the US. back to our control.   lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/9/2006 5:40:51 AM >

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:27:01 AM   
peterK50


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"One Man's Terrorist Is Another Man's Freedom Fighter"
                                                                                      .....Ronald Reagan

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Religion Is About Seeking Knowledge, Not Knowing All The Answers.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:32:43 AM   
NavyDDG54


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Operation Iraqi Freedom is the name of the military operation in Iraq. It was not a political statement or statement of belief, it is simply the name of the operationm[

quote]ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In that case I think you have misunderstood what was being said. The point was/is that the problems in the Middle East are partly a result of European imperialism. I doubt anyone was saying that the Balfour declaration = terrorists hate the US.

Also, when you include the phrase "Operation Iraqi Freedom" I think it's fair to say people will question this and thus fair to expect a session to develop.

Regards
[/quote]

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:36:33 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I must say Mr Ken your photo looks like a patriotic Brit. who would be only too happy to liberate the US. back to our control.   lol



Naw   but thanks   But I do like to wear costumes   LOL   Oh the blades are real fighting blades (not wall hangers)   I do use them in battle.   Oh and I have never been to the UK.   But I was Sargeant of the Guard at a Tutonic Castle on the Rhien once.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:36:36 AM   
ScooterTrash


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True..freedom comes at a cost..usually human life. Ironic actually, that the very thing this "war" is supposedly about, protecting life, comes with the burdon of losing lives to win (or deter) it. I don't look at terrorism as something specifically locked to a particular faction or geographical area, it is the random killing solely for the sake of attacking people who represent ideals that are not the same as theirs. OK..yes it sounds like the definition of wars throughout history, from both sides. Sure...many on this planet have the mindset that they are willing to give their life for what they believe, many soldiers all over the world are instilled with this thought, but it appears to me that a terrorist by todays definition has no regard for their own life and are not only willing, but are hellbent on giving up what should be sacred to them. They kill others, randomly, who have no concept or understanding of what they are after, nor can they. When someone feels so strongly about "anything" that they are willing to be suicidal, I fail to see how it is something that is stoppable through force. We, as a civilized people, feel it necessary to kill the enemy (pick the enemy of the day) in an effort to thwart terrorist threats? I do not have the answer..but it really is an oxymoron of sorts, to kill suicidal people, to keep them from killing senselessly. It will slow down that particular person if that was their mission, but it isn't stopping the problem. No..freedom isn't free and comes at a cost....but what payment makes sense? I'm not sure we are using the proper currency.

< Message edited by ScooterTrash -- 9/9/2006 5:42:55 AM >


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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:40:49 AM   
NavyDDG54


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Those 'refugees' were urged to leave by their own leaders who promised them that they would quickly purge the land of Jews.  They were not forced to leave by any Jew, nor were they threatened by any Jew. Israel hasnt been in Gaza in over a year. Israel withdrew from Gaza on 1 conidition. that the PA disarm Hamas, Jihad, PFLP, and every other terrorist organization.  Not only did the PA refuse to do so, Hamas took power in Gaza, effectively turning Gaza into a hostile enemy territory on Israel's border(keep in mind that the UN mandate in 1947 ceded both the West bank and Gaza to Israel, and created a palestinian country on the other side of the Jordan river, guess what that country is...Jordan)

You blame Israel for killing civilians...how are they not supposed to? when the enemy hides among civilians, uses them as shields?
Israel took extremem measures in Lebanon to protect innocent life(such as warning areas before an attack took place, what other country lets the enemy know where it's going to attack?)
When Israel bombed the airport, they easily could have destroyed the control tower or the terminal, but they didnt, they bombed the runway, allowing for the airport to become functional again 1 month after the war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The Israeli war of independence effectively caused 750,000 refugees. The Balfour agreement wasn't implimented, the Zionist pre-empted any agreement with the local Arabs, who I admit, were not happy with the proposals.

However, my problem is not with Israel's existence but that the way it reacts, which has and does create the terrorists it fights, just like the West does as a whole. Israel effectively created Hezzbollah when it occupied lebanon the first time, it has strengthened Hezzbollah with its recent over reaction when it targeted civilian infrastructure in an obvious aim to terrorize the civilian population. Look at what Israel does in Gaza, is there any wonder there are suicide attacks? If you are going to be killed by the Israeli army lobbing in shells or as collateral damage in an Israeli extra-judicial assissination by air to ground missile, why not take a few Israelis with you?

You really need to stand back and look at the big picture. You will see while individual terrorist acts appear to be irrational, terrorism isn't irrational, it is plain to see why it exists.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:43:53 AM   
peterK50


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This method is straight out of the playbooks of every totalitarian regime ever. Find an outside enemy, make them the repository of all evil, accumulate power to "fight" them, attack everyone as "unpatriotic" who gets in you way. Simple, & familiar

_____________________________

Religion Is About Seeking Knowledge, Not Knowing All The Answers.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 5:46:25 AM   
NavyDDG54


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What choice did Israel have? Lebanon refused to disarm Hezbollah, Israel could not let Hezbollah keep massing on it's border, How long do you think it would take for America to invade Canada if the canucks allowed Al-Qaeda to mass along the US border? Or for France to if Germany allowed Al-Qaeda to mass on the French border? Israel is surrounded by enemies. They have to take extreme action.  And any concession made by Israel for peace is viewed by the arabs not as a gesture for peace, but instead as a victory.  The Arabs respect and understad only one thing- Strength. They see concessions as a sign of weakness and defeat.  How do you expect Israel to negotiate with that?

[Extremely well said..... I couldn't agree more. Israel effectively destroyed a semi pro-western government that's now sympathetic to the positions held by a band of militants that want to revert back to the idealism of the twelfth century.


- R

[/quote]

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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