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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 7:45:18 AM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"how else were they supposed to fight? they had no other weapons that would have been effective. They were fighting for independence, and targeted legitimate targets in that effort. They did not kill target innocent people "


...there were innocents killed and maimed, possibly as collateral damage, but hurt nonetheless.......everything you have typed about 'how else were they to fight' applies to early PLO activities......years and years of struggle against Israel, years of how many palestinian civilians hurt and we are where we are now....because Israel does not learn the lesson from its past...and people like you don't see the irony.....

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 7:52:04 AM   
NavyDDG54


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Status: offline 		the big difference is again the nature of the targets, the PLO from it's beginning targeted civilians, and made no effort to do otherwise

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:09:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Mr Meatcleaver. I have never read your interpretation of the American Revolution and I'm not clear I understand what you are saying. Do you have a source where I could have a look/read. Maybe I see what you are getting at, the Brits. wanted to stop expansion into Indian Territory ?



Yes. The Proclaimation line set out by the British was to stop enroachment onto Indian lands and so keep the peace. The mistake the British made was that they moved troops down from Canada that had been fighting in the seven year war to place along the Proclaimation line and asked for the colonies to pay for them. The British government thinking that it had more or less bankrupted itself protecting the colonies from the French and that the colonies should pay for something and imposed stamp duty which was so ruthlessly exploited for propaganda.

To be honest, I can't think of a revolution that was truely about the freedom of the masses, they are all by the middle classes exploiting political situations. If the American revolution was so different, why didn't the new state give universal sufferage to its citizens and why did it immediately raise tax to form a standing army, given that it had no immediate enemies and the only purpose of the army was to protect the revolution and the new political elite. If you compare the rights of the new US citizens, they didn't have as many as their compatriots that fled to Canada where British subjects had more rights.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:17:06 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"the big difference is again the nature of the targets, the PLO from it's beginning targeted civilians, and made no effort to do otherwise "

..........how many palestinian civilians are being held without trial by israel even as we type? How many israeli and palestinian civilians have been killed in the last 5 years, say?
To count just the casualties on one side is to put a nationality or a religion above humanity.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:23:04 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


Posts: 412
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had.
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty fuckin' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom.
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little pussy
'Cause the only reason that you're here.
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a have to hook'in fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five___Trey Parker, Freedom Isn't Free, from the Team America : World Police soundtrack.
 
How could I resist?


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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:26:24 AM   
Tikkiee


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Status: offline 		Freedom isn't free.
 
I am surprised that you are just now realizing that.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:29:45 AM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
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Status: offline 		I am not just realizing it, I found that out a long time ago, i'm just helping others to
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

Freedom isn't free.
 
I am surprised that you are just now realizing that.

(in reply to Tikkiee)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:32:10 AM   
Tikkiee


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quote:

I am not just realizing it, I found that out a long time ago, i'm just helping others to

ahhh, I see. We are all blind and ignorant to what happens around us and the reasons why; therefore we need someone to point things like this out for us?

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:36:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Freedom isn't free but as Foucault pointed out, the jailor is as much a prisoner as the prisoner he guards which is Israel's plight and the plight the West has caused for itself. The west will only have true freedom when it stops meddling in the affairs of others, until then we will be the prisoners of fear which Bush and co. are ruthlessly exploiting.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:45:39 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I believe that it was your country that subjucated ours and the other 'WOG" collonies.



BULLSHIT. Read your history. Your country was never subjugated. If you learnt your own history you will realise the so called American Revolution was about elite power and not about freedom. Every state had democratic assemblies under Britain and Britain ran a massive trading deficit with the colonies and had more or less bankrupted itself defending the colonies from the French. The real contention that was exploited by people like Washingtomn was the Proclaimation line which was to protect Indian lands from the encroachment from the land hungry colonists. This was to be policed by the troops that came down from Canada having fought to defend the colonies and paid for by a stamp duty which was widely exploited for propaganda purposes, hence no tax without representation. However, 99% of the colonists never paid any tax to the British.
 
You see the American tax fixation is based on a myth. It was a propaganda ploy by colonist elites to provoke discontent and it is the reason Americans now have a visceral reaction to tax. Most Americans obviously prefer to believe in myth rather than seeking out the truth. Your elite were laughing back then and they are still laughing now. Except they aren't laughing at the Brits anymore they are laughing at the poor idiots who deny themselves universal healthcare and a minimum wage thinking it is for their own good when it is for the good of the American rich ie. latter day Washingtons.

EDITED TO ADD. There were written laws that when read would seem a bone of contention like the ban of smelting of steel. Yet the colonies smelted more steel than Britain. Look what actually was happening in the colonies and not at so called laws that were not enforced and barely known about by British governors. There were many of them that have were exploited that were never enforced, that was were the stupidity of the British came in, naivety.
 
Actually, losing the colonies was the best thing that happened to Britain so we Brits shouldn't really complain because it was that that freed Britain up to become an Empire.


I believe that it was your contry that caused the split in Ireland.

Yes. Ireland was part of Britain then so Britain was dividing its own country. Of course the Irish will be incensed with that view and I can understand it. Partition to me was a mistake and Britain would have been better off dumping the whole lt.

I believe that it was your country that was given Palestine in trust and didn't protect the Jews but armed the Arabs against them.

BULLSHIT!!!

Britain is far from innocent and done quite enough but don't burden us with things we haven't done.




So if you doin't enforce a law as you indicated then it is ok

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:50:23 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		You said the colonies were subjugated. I just pointed out the colonies weren't subjugated, they had free assemblies and Britain had a massive trade deficit with the colonies. The implication of your statement was that Britain ruthlessly exploited the colonies when the facts bear out the opposite, the colonies cost Britain a fortune and just about nil tax was collected from the colonies, in fact teh average colonist was richer than the average Briton. Hardly subjugation.

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:54:27 AM   
onmykneesforhim


Posts: 112
Joined: 6/18/2006
Status: offline 		<>about elite power and not about freedom.<>

   Isnt this freedom in itself? omk

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 8:58:46 AM   
enigmaslave


Posts: 146
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline 		RE: Freedom Isn’t Free.
In this day and age freedom does not exist. It is a dangling carrot, an illusion. Period.
If you think other wise, you are very naive.

Proof. You buy your food. You buy water. You pay to have clean air. And you pay to move about.

We have been conditioned to be clothed and we have been conditioned to what constitutes pleasure and pain.

Religion was one of the largest organizations to take freedom away. In the name of saving your soul; the rebellious preached a different religion, in order to reclaim power.

The Kings and Queens toke the power next, in the name of protection.
Then the rebellious claimed knowledge is the key to retaking power

Lastly the Corporations acquired the control.
They bombarded you with products and services, and miss-information.

Ionic, some would call it a fight for freedom; others will call it Anti Semitism. The reality is you fighting to protect the status quo. It’s tragic and ironic that this is all about "Power and Control", of Gold and Oil. Something that society has assigned a value too. The day that ITEMS loose value and HUMANITY gains value is the day of a true Power [ex]Change

Lastly I find it;
: Ironic that every one thinks war is about oil.
: Ironic, that Hitler was Jewish.
: Ironic, that others cultures have suffered far greater casualties then the Jews, but we hear hourly and daily of the Jewish problem. (The Africa’s have suffered 20 x's The Jews.)

There is a power struggle amongst the elite right now. They know the power is coming to and end.

This is not the time to fight. Attacking several opponents is poor strategy. Wait until they have completed their battles. Then like Killer Bees you can bring down the one opponent.

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 9:04:47 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You said the colonies were subjugated. I just pointed out the colonies weren't subjugated, they had free assemblies and Britain had a massive trade deficit with the colonies. The implication of your statement was that Britain ruthlessly exploited the colonies when the facts bear out the opposite, the colonies cost Britain a fortune and just about nil tax was collected from the colonies, in fact teh average colonist was richer than the average Briton. Hardly subjugation.


To me if you don't have a say in what is going on (the vote) then it is subjugation. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 9:16:54 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Then the founding fathers subjugated 90% of the citizens of the new USA and exploited and murdered native Americans and happily kept black people in slavery for decades after Britain was fighting a war against slavery. So much for your founding fathers and subjugation.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/9/2006 9:19:01 AM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 9:24:27 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Then the founding fathers subjugated 90% of the citizens of the new USA and exploited and murdered native Americans and happily kept black people in slavery for decades after Britain was fighting a war against slavery. So much for your founding fathers and subjugation.


I won't argue that.  Wrong is wrong

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 9:26:50 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: enigmaslave

: Ironic, that Hitler was Jewish.


It is extremely unlikely that Hitler was a Jew.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitlerjew.html

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to enigmaslave)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 9:30:45 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Level, although I very seldom disagree with you, I can't take the source you used too seriously.  Self hate...self loathing are relatively common themes.  Maybe he wasn't, but that source wouldn't convince me.

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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 9:33:40 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Then the founding fathers subjugated 90% of the citizens of the new USA and exploited and murdered native Americans and happily kept black people in slavery for decades after Britain was fighting a war against slavery. So much for your founding fathers and subjugation.


I won't argue that.  Wrong is wrong


You can't argue with it. I'm not saying Britain was great, hell it has done enough harm in the world.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/9/2006 9:34:38 AM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Freedom Isnt Free - 9/9/2006 9:36:19 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Then the founding fathers subjugated 90% of the citizens of the new USA and exploited and murdered native Americans and happily kept black people in slavery for decades after Britain was fighting a war against slavery. So much for your founding fathers and subjugation.


I won't argue that.  Wrong is wrong


You can't argue with it. I'm not saying Britain was great, hell it has done enough harm in the world.


I wouldn't argue with that either.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 80
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