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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 5:50:20 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		The very fact you have different politics to me and see different solutions to different problems is evidence of a conflict even if we can be relatively civil about it. You might win me over by the power of your arguments but I doubt it because we have fundemental different beliefs
 
I don't think there is much of a gap in our politics/beliefs. It appears that way because we have a different view on the practicalities of some issues e.g. the current EU. However, that is only the practicality rather than the belief. From where I'm standing both of us want to see Britain as part of a democractically elected EU that governs in the interests of all Europeans.

I did think we had a major disagreement in the solution to realising these beliefs because when I came to this board the first posts of yours I read were vehemently against the principle of Government (and particularly left-wing Government). But then, you started quoting The Guardian and ex-prominent left wing politicians to support your arguments :-) Finally, you made many posts stating clearly your support for the principles of an EU Government. Thus, I can't help but think your not as anti-Government or as anti-left-wing as your posts appeared a while ago. I would hazard a guess that you once held strong left-wing beliefs but felt let down by people on the left who didn't practice what they preached.

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 6:00:12 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		We have started on the slippery road to inter communal strife. What a disaster the influx of committed fundamenalist puritanical Muslims in particualar is going to be.
The wheel of conflict  is starting to accelerate.
 
Nonsense.

The conflict in the world today is not Muslims v Christians or Muslims v Jews it is moderates v extremists.

Regards



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 6:02:36 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		With regard to social philosophy
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen
I would argue that historical examples exist of women excelling and leading in each of those areas. On a biological note it is interesting (well I suppose obvious really) that these women were removed (by choice or nature) from the biological task of child bearing and/or had the societally designated gender task of child rearing removed or alleviated. *sighs* bloody reproductive imperative rears it's ugly head again.


You said it Ms W.
Certainly  since the 15th/16th century in Europe there has been no shortage of privileged women to supply a pool,of creative excellence. Today we see women capable of doing what has traditionally been men's work. But as I said before the general trends across the sexes , especially at the high mental capacity end,are clear enough.
Since there are clear differences in physical strength, why not intellectual strength ?

PC thinkers must face up to things as they are, not as they believe would be preferable.

When I went to school MsW I was forced to read Silas Marner by G Elliot. What a drudge, what a chore...never did read it. GE was a woman. I expect you know that , but just in case. Proves nothing really since I also had to read Kipps by HG Wells. Just as bad. never read that either. Come to think of it I never read any assigned Big Bill Shakespeare either. I did have a crush on a female teacher at my primary school. lol

Scooter if that catfight was over you , you ought to be ashamed of yourself !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/10/2006 6:11:38 AM >

(in reply to MistressWolfen)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 6:22:37 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"One profession that women do dominate in the UK state schools, at the primary and secondary levels, is teaching. It is being noticed that the feminine approach to things is have a negative effect on the education of boys."

.......given you have made this statement i look forward to your citing some proof of it. As opposed to a Daily Mail headline, shortly underneath the one about house prices dropping.

"When I went to school MsW I was forced to read Silas Marner by G Elliot. What a drudge, what a chore...never did read it. GE was a woman. I expect you know that , but just in case. Proves nothing really since I also had to read Kipps by HG Wells. Just as bad. never read that either. Come to think of it I never read any assigned Big Bill Shakespeare either."

....proves quite a lot actually. Proves that you dont bother reading or understanding anything you don't like. Makes sense.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 6:25:22 AM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Granted, the history of international relations is one of power struggles/war. Yet, this really is a discussion about our natural state i.e. have we been conditioned to fight over resources or is this inherent to humans (see anthrosub's thread)?


Yes I did, and yes I concur.

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Quoth the raven

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 6:41:39 AM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

With regard to social philosophy
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen
I would argue that historical examples exist of women excelling and leading in each of those areas. On a biological note it is interesting (well I suppose obvious really) that these women were removed (by choice or nature) from the biological task of child bearing and/or had the societally designated gender task of child rearing removed or alleviated. *sighs* bloody reproductive imperative rears it's ugly head again.


You said it Ms W.
Certainly  since the 15th/16th century in Europe there has been no shortage of privileged women to supply a pool,of creative excellence. Today we see women capable of doing what has traditionally been men's work. But as I said before the general trends across the sexes , especially at the high mental capacity end,are clear enough.
Since there are clear differences in physical strength, why not intellectual strength ?



Oh dear Seeks, you really should have paid more attention in class ya naughty man. Just a very very brief list for ya to read through (I know it is boring to read, and pretty shiney objects are very distracting) but here are a few wee examples for ya. Laid out carefully by subject matter, I think if you read some of their biographies you would be very thankful as you sit at your PC using that nice interface instead of typing code (we are speaking firsts are we not? not referring to the gentlemen that came along after the woman and tidied up?) *weg*

Founder of Red Cross (need I say more?)
Clara Barton
University Founder
Elizabeth Blackwell
World Leader and Politician Extraordinaire
Cleopatra
Nobel Prize Winner and Scholar
Marie Curie
Pilot and Adventurer
Amelia Earhart
Religious Leader
Mary Baker Eddy:
World Leader
Elizabeth I
Margaret Thatcher  (proves that women are just as idiotic as men when exposed to power)
Musician
Ella Fitzgerald
World Leader
Indira Gandhi
Organizer and Activist
LaDonna Harris
Military Leader, Inventor and Mathematician
Grace Hopper  
Union and Labour
Dolores Huerta
Leadership in education, science, and public policy
Shirley Jackson
Religious Leadership
Joan of Arc
Mother Theresa
Fine Art
Frida Kahlo
Architect and Environmentalist
Maya Lin
Academic and Explorer
Margaret Mead
Astronaut and Research Scientist
Ellen Ochoa  
Leader in Civil Rights
Rosa Parks
Nation Developer (think this sister should have left the critters on the shores personally)
Sacagawea
Leader of Social Reform
Margaret Sanger
Poet, Musician and Inventor
Sappho
Economics and World Economy
Muriel F. Siebert
Ann Rand
International Voice and National Advocate
Lillian Smith
Moved an Entire Group of People to Freedom
Harriet Tubman
Union and Labour Leader
Esther Peterson
Philosophers
Simone Beauvoir
Ann Rand
Themistoclea
Theano of Crotona
Diotima of Mantinea
Aspasia of Miletus (influential politician as well)
Aesara of Lucania
Hypatia of Alexandria (brilliant mathematician also)







< Message edited by MistressWolfen -- 9/10/2006 6:57:19 AM >

_____________________________

Quoth the raven

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 7:01:35 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Margaret Thatcher  (proves that women are just as idiotic as men when exposed to power)

Undeniably the most accurate statement posted anywhere in the world by any person.

Takes hat off to the good lady.

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to MistressWolfen)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 7:08:45 AM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		*bows and doesn't smile smugly at all at all* thankee NorthernGent, the woman was just so wrong on so many levels.

_____________________________

Quoth the raven

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 8:16:05 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		What a lovely post MistressWolfen, I mean that most sincerely, I really do. lol or is it rofl.If you wanted to enter the numbers game I could produce say 10 men of international eminence/excellence for every woman that you have listed sowwy

Lets just take one entry that stuck out and made me stagger in amazement Music: Ella Fitzgerald.
OK here I go 1.... 2..wait for it 3
Beethoven Mozart Chopin Schumann Rachmaninov Tchaikovsky Wagner Bruckner Mahler All the Bachs I dont mean the US country singer either.  I think there was one wasnt there ?
Debussy Ravel Stravinsky Khachaturian Shostokovitch..I'm laughing so loud MsW and bouncing up and down on my seat I am amazed I can spell these odd names.
All creative geniuses...and you say Ella. I  like you MsW, I really really do. 

In earlier pre internet times I believe she was known as a scat singer, so heaven knows what she got up to.
When NG supports you , you must have got something wrong. Big lols to me.

Come to think of it what about Dolly Parton,   now she is good.

(in reply to MistressWolfen)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 8:21:48 AM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		*lol* I agree Seeks, but my post was not to illustrate numbers. As I said this was just a very short list, as a humanist I could give a rats arse which sex or gender developed, invented, supported or concieved something that benefits humankind. I was just forwarding examples to refute your comment that biological designation plays a significant role in cognition or cognitive capablity in any sphere.

*peers at Seek...did you vote for Thatcher?? hmmmm?*

and nothin' the matter with NG posts, he states his opinion soundly, articulates them carefully and backs them with reputable sources, we all do not have to agree to enjoy a discussion...come to think of it not much of a discussion if we all sit in a circle and nods our heads yup yup I agree with the learned colleague stuff.

< Message edited by MistressWolfen -- 9/10/2006 8:25:26 AM >

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Quoth the raven

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 9:18:54 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		MistressWolfen said.......in desperation I think.
we all do not have to agree to enjoy a discussion...

Spot on MsW........thats what I love about this section of collarme
and meeting you of course.!

(in reply to MistressWolfen)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 9:59:29 AM   
MistressWolfen


Posts: 578
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		Ya are a cheeky git Seeks *shakes head* I was not desperate, although your excellent spelling of really long foreign names was a tad intimidating (I suspect spell-check and google but will not insist on verification, cause I am gracious to a fault) *smirks*

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 10:28:50 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		""One profession that women do dominate in the UK state schools, at the primary and secondary levels, is teaching. It is being noticed that the feminine approach to things is have a negative effect on the education of boys."

.......given you have made this statement i look forward to your citing some proof of it. As opposed to a Daily Mail headline, shortly underneath the one about house prices dropping."

.....still waiting on that proof, seeks.....or are you one of those people who replace fact with mere opinion? 

(in reply to MistressWolfen)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 11:03:07 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Philo....I do not have a specific reference, but it is a point of view that I have read and heard discussed on current affairs programmes, and one that I am inclined to believe. The decline in educational standards in the UK is so obvious that I should think that almost any thing that is done in schools is suspect.. Similary, one female parent households are held to be having disastrous effects on boys. My sources are as above !

Now as for man the go getter, I believe that that tendency exists also.ie more men are that way inclined. I believe that women should be free to compete wherever they feel they can. In fact increases in behaviour patterns in women, attributable  to the stress  their new roles have imposed ,has also been reported. Drunkeness, smoking, stress illness, neuroses, violence. etc. 

I still firmly hold to my OP that men have shaped, in many very positive ways, the world we live in, in a way that women never will ! So obvious I cant believe anyone would even consider denying it.

Bit of a ramble this, but there it is.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/10/2006 11:07:37 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 11:10:46 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave


Just think what we would not have if it were left to women.!


Just think what we would not have if it were left up to men; any more human beings.
 
Not because it is physically impossible simply because men are just not strong enough to go through what a woman does to produce one single human life.
 
Come on seeksfemslave do you volunteer to give birth?
 

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 11:57:52 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"One profession that women do dominate in the UK state schools, at the primary and secondary levels, is teaching. It is being noticed that the feminine approach to things is have a negative effect on the education of boys."

.......given you have made this statement i look forward to your citing some proof of it. As opposed to a Daily Mail headline, shortly underneath the one about house prices dropping.



When I worked in the Probation Service I remember a report doing the rounds about the problem of the feminizing (is that a word?) of primary education and its exaggerated detrimental effect on young males that don't have a male role model at home. I can no longer remember what it was called and it was something of a long turgid affair commissioned by the government from one of the London Universities I believe. I have neither the will nor the inclination to do a search on it. I left that life behind sometime ago.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 12:34:58 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		How fortunate for all these wondrous male contributors to civilisation, that for the first few years of their lives they were able to feed themselves, clean themselves of their poor toilet manners, keep themselves from accident and incident, teach themselves how to speak and understand language and nurse themselves back to health when illness struck.

Maybe men are better suited to banding together for conflict, and better able to pursue war. Maybe this is a good thing, to keep us weaker sorts protected from other men hellbent on the same intentions........ but to whom do they turn to soothe their wounds I wonder? To whom do they scream for help, when their pain exceeds the bearing?

Much as I hate to do so, I agree with seeks; men and women are not equal. However, men and women are equitable and complementary partners in life, and gender roles apart they each have demonstrated ability and the lack thereof, they each have achieved the heights and the lows in every form of human endeavour, and they each are as capable of good and evil as the other.

This is where these debates about male vs female always fall down; that so very few seem to understand that physical sex and gender role are two different things. It is only as gender roles have blurred in more recent times that such debates have even arisen. Men are still men, women are still women, but women especially have been permitted a wider gender role, moving into what was the male gender role. At the same time, the technologies whereby we live have moved on, so that women are now able to not only cross into the male gender role, but also to exceed the men within it. Its only because men feel threatened about this, whilst at the same time they have enjoyed a far reduced increase in scope of gender role than women, that such debates occur.
E

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 12:38:19 PM   
NastyDaddy


Posts: 957
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

...  men are just not strong enough to go through what a woman does to produce one single human life.
  

What makes you think those nine months are a picnic for a man anywhere near a pregnant woman?

Men have to endure nine months of hearing "this is all your fault, you bastard!"

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 1:10:20 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Lols to Nasty Daddy.
Also Lady E, speaking for myself I dont feel threatened by strong women at all, I much prefer them to ultra feminine types despite the name I chose when I joined collarme. But we are not discussing relationships we are discussing manly types, which over the last few years have been unfairly traduced. Sorry about the word but it popped into my mind.  ie blamed as responsible for  many social problems.

I have posted somewhere that stable heterosexual relationships work best in bringing up well adjusted children. Again so obvious to my mind that only the feminist trendsetters and I expect NG could possibly deny it. I have not denigrated women I have tried to point to  the fantastic achievements of many men. Statisically and of a level that is of a different order of magnitude that women have so far achieved.

Maybe things will change in the future, but I doubt it.

Twicehappy, since Scooter and me agree on everything I shall have to get him to have a quiet word with you.  Or not fix your bike when it breaks down. lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/10/2006 1:17:57 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 1:26:57 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I thought we were discussing whether long term gender roles have had an evolutionary effect on psychology, but then I always seem to misunderstand....

E

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 60
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