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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/10/2006 4:56:56 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Is it not true  Zensee  that throughout the ages, philosophical, polititical, analytical, literary and poetic creative thinking,  especially with regard to the organisation of society , has mostly been the province of men ?

Though there was opposition to women doing such things, so there was to men, depending on the point of view they expressed.

The sexes are complementary, not equal.


All the achievements you list are the results civilisation or culture, not it's cause and, given the opportunity to participate, women are every bit as capable as men in their creation. The opposition to women's participation is not of the same nature or on the same scale as the internal squabbles within philisophies or disclipines. Women were not excluded because their views were heretical but because their views were simply ignored as invalid.

The founding behaviours of culture are responses to the need of female humans to form and maintain cohesive social groups that can preserve, refine and distribute knowledge. A man's minimum contribution to reproduction is measured in minutes - the woman's in years. Who has the greater motive to form complex societies? Who has the greater need to share and preserve knowledge? Women do.

Being raised with culture, men are full participants and have an inate understanding of the mechanisms. Not being capable of bearing children themselves, men have a clear motive to control both the mechanisms of culture and women as a group. Being larger, more agressive and less empathetic, they have the means and nature to take and keep that control. But just because they hog the remote doesn't mean they make better choices than women. Opportunity NOT capability.

In complimentary pairs neither is superior to the other.


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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 4:17:16 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Seeks said...
it not true  Zensee  that throughout the ages, philosophical, polititical, analytical, literary and poetic creative thinking,  especially with regard to the organisation of society , has mostly been the province of men ?

Zensee responded...
All the achievements you list are the results civilisation or culture, not it's cause
Getting the cart before the horse there Zensee lol

It seems to me that the female role in the procreative and nurture process is probably the cause of the difference in the high level intellectual abilities between the sexes.
Just as it is quite clear that body types shade from ultra masculine through androgynous to ultra feminine, so mental capability will vary. Thus there have been and will continue to be highly intelligent women but the bias will favour men in that respect and in some areas will totally predominate..

Zensee do not be bamboozled by feminist propaganda.....it is mistaken in its extreme form and many women realise that and have recently stepped forward and expressed that opinion.

We have both said that the social roles of men and woman are complementary.

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 4:49:15 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

What makes you think those nine months are a picnic for a man anywhere near a pregnant woman? Men have to endure nine months of hearing "this is all your fault, you bastard!"


Go pull your lower lip slowly over your head until it touches the back of your neck and get back to me.

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 4:55:39 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave


Twicehappy, since Scooter and me agree on everything I shall have to get him to have a quiet word with you.  Or not fix your bike when it breaks down. lol


Ask him who worked on HIS  bike last, me or him?
 
Or who plugged the last tire with a nail in it, or who did the last tune up on the truck or changed the oil in the car last for that matter.
 
My rides do not break down as i am much better at preventative maintenance on bikes or cars than any man, Scooter included, that i know, and FYI, i am a damn fine wrench!

< Message edited by twicehappy -- 9/11/2006 5:41:49 AM >

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 5:22:25 AM   
ShiftedJewel


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quote:

Twicehappy, since Scooter and me agree on everything I shall have to get him to have a quiet word with you.  Or not fix your bike when it breaks down. lol


I seriously doubt that.... and I would know.
 
Jewel

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 6:53:05 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Twicehappy you may be one of the exceptions that I admit exist but answer me this....
Who frees off the  rusted or chemically bonded bolts when the liquids designed to break the bonds just wont work and the bolt is virtually inaccessable ? 
Be honest now ? I've got to trust you !

It strikes me that Scooter has got it far too good. Whats his secret. I know...he's a man lol

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 7:24:17 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Twicehappy you may be one of the exceptions that I admit exist but answer me this....
Who frees off the  rusted or chemically bonded bolts when the liquids designed to break the bonds just wont work and the bolt is virtually inaccessable ? 
Be honest now ? I've got to trust you !


I  use an impact wrench or i put a regular wrench to them and pound them with a hammer or i heat them a little with a torch first.
 
I spent 6 years single, who do you think broke a bolt free for me then?
 
quote:

It strikes me that Scooter has got it far too good. Whats his secret. I know...he's a man lol  


I know lots of men who would not qualify for Scooter's position.
 
He is a biker  with all that statement entails , he has honor , he is exceptionally intelligent , he has a great sense of humor , he sings to me in Chinese , he is trust worthy , he handles me well and that is not easy,  he knows i prefer bike parts to jewelry, he is loving and kind , he accepts me as i am , he pets me and lest i forget to mention it , he is hung like a horse and has a magnificent ass.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 7:36:46 AM   
Lashra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

If it were not for men I dread to think what the level of our civilisation would be. Admittedly some men like a rumble now and then, with disastrous results, but by and large I think the male of the species can be quite pleased with itself.

Just think what we would not have if it were left to women.! No roads, buildings, cars, aeroplanes, ships, computors, telecomms.classical music, literature... the list is endless. 

Sorry Ladies but thats the truth and you know it.

LMAO how laughable, you obviously have not heard of  S.Jospehine Baker and what advances her research did for the medical field? Here's one you might know, Elisabeth Adams, the inventor of the corset? How about Marie Cunitz the astronomer?
Women are just as capable as men, however for so long we were not given access to education so that we could contribute as much as we should have. Why were women held back..FEAR.  Sorry hon but thats the truth and you know it.

Have a nice day,
~Lashra



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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 8:36:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

Women are just as capable as men, however for so long we were not given access to education so that we could contribute as much as we should have. Why were women held back..FEAR.  Sorry hon but thats the truth and you know it.



Not quite true. There have been many periods in history were women have had the same opportunities as men. In the middleages, contrary to popular belief women could own wealth and run businesses and did and were quite capable of abducting a young lover for themselves. There were women of wealth and education enough that had the same opportunities as men. Feminists have turned the social fashions of the Victorian age into the complete history of women. Even in the Victorian age there were women that wrote great literature but never produced great art despite many women artists of the time (Camille Claudel being an exception), nor did they as a sex excell in science although there were many female scientists. One should be asking why did women as a sex excell in writing and not in other areas when they had equal opportunity. My guess is a lack of competitiveness and a lack of willingness to fight their corner. Many male artists that lacked connections succeeded where women with connections failed.

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 9:20:10 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		MC - its not quite that simple to say that women had the opportunity but didnt make a mark. Any fame and even acknowledgement requires that the culture recognises the person as having achieved the exceptional. If the over riding culture, (notwithstanding greater opportunity for women) is one which says women belong in the home doing "women's work" etc, then it is not going to be too willing to recognise that a woman is somewhere else and doing otherwise, and succeeding?

Lets not forget that women didnt even have the vote in the UK until fairly recently in our history, and this was withheld on the same sorts of grounds as are being advanced here as reasons why women did not achieve fame in this or that field in the past. That women today are achieving in all manner of fields is evidence enough surely, that regardless of isolated episodes and individuals in the past, it is that women en masse have moved from being valued only as homemakers to being received as full citizens of an inclusive culture that explains why women in the past so rarely made it into the record books, rather than that they are somehow inherently bereft of what it takes to do so?

If only women had been permitted to engage in science in former times, do we seriously think that the odd male who got involved would have earned a mention as anything more than a curiosity, more than the odd female who actually did so has?
E

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 9:32:54 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"Philo....I do not have a specific reference, but it is a point of view that I have read and heard discussed on current affairs programmes, and one that I am inclined to believe. The decline in educational standards in the UK is so obvious that I should think that almost any thing that is done in schools is suspect.. Similary, one female parent households are held to be having disastrous effects on boys. My sources are as above !"

....so, the University of What-Some-Bloke-Said-On-Telly, and the College of Well-It's-Obvious-Innit.........'fraid they're not exactly reputable sources seeks........ mind you, they're the same sources that led in the past to things like pogroms aren't they.......still, never let a fact get in the way of a good opinion.

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 9:47:13 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Germaine Greer wrote a book on female artists, there is an abundance of their work, particularly in the provincial museums. In Sheffield Art College, there were female students in 1835 studying nudes. Things weren't as backward as often portrayed. One can compare the work they were doing to the best achievement of their time and it still doesn't stand up. Camille Claudel being the exception.

As for voting, all men over 21 got the vote in 1918 at the same time all women over 30 got the vote. While there wasn't voting equality, it was not the case that all men had been voting for years before women had the vote. I think it was something like 30% of men had the vote before 1918 (I really should check that figure). 

What feminists illustrate is the plight of the top couple of % of women who belonged to the landed classes where marriages were like business contracts as the norm for the whole society. Below that top social class, things were a lot more fluid and it is quite surprising the opportunites upper middle class women had. It was when you got to the lower classes there were no opportunities but there were no opportunities there for men either.

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 9:50:46 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I think it is pretty simple, if women had paved the course of history it would have been different, some technologies wouldn't exist maybe some others would. It's a useless exercise to say it would have been worse or better.


One thing women would have NEVER invented .. was a tampon applicator made of a dry, cardboard tube!   Not to mention "thongs" :)

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 9:57:36 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		MC -for goodness sake, dont drag Germaine Greer into all this - according to her version of extremist feminism 50% of XX females dont qualify as women, and that would really confuse a discussion like this! She's one antipodeian import we'd have done better to turn back at the port, but then I guess they sent her here 'cause they couldnt put up with her!?
E

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 10:02:13 AM   
leashlord35


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Status: offline 		Great discussion, particularly the debate about education and gender between Seeks and NG.  NG notes the undisputed fact of women's increasing success in education and uses this point to counter Seek's assertion of male superiority in the area of intellectual innovation.  Given my, admittedly cursory, study in this area; I would argue that this phenomenon actually reinforces Seeks argument.  Yes, women have higher enrollment, a better attitude, better grades, and higher graduation rates;  but are these not perfect expressions of the female drive to conform to the expectations of the society in which she lives?  Changing societal expectations may change visible results, yet the underlying biological drives remain the same.  Males tend to prefer to control their environment rather than conform to it, and it is this attempt to achieve an advantage that leads to innovation.  I disagree with Seeks that males are intellectually superior to females.  I think that in a static intellectual environment both sexes would probably perform fairly equally.  But I do believe that males are biologically driven to alter the status of that environment in order to achieve advantage.  Just my thoughts.

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 10:05:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		MC - in more serious reply, surely my point must stand then - if c 30% of males only, had the vote pre 1918, and these were the same wealthy men who owned the land and everything else (newspapers especially), and who prevented for years universal male suffrage along with limited and later universal female suffrage, then we are looking at a culture where even if some more enlightened males did permit opportunity to their wives and daughters, the overriding influence is one of keeping women in their place. If one is part of this paternalistic old guard, and one reads newspapers, then one does not want to read that one's cherished views of life and society are being upset by some damned woman who is succeeding in "man's work"? And if one owns a newspaper and belongs to that privileged group of wealthy men able to vote - one is hardly likely to extol the virtue of any woman's achievements outside of the home and family?
E

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 10:12:31 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		LL - "Males tend to prefer to control their environment rather than conform to it, and it is this attempt to achieve an advantage that leads to innovation" - the only part I disagree with LL, in that women will also seek to change their environment in order to yield advantage, so its not a male thing particularly. Women just do things differently, and get you guys to do any heavy work thats involved!

Good first post LL - fair analysis of the discussion and the situation, without causing offence to anyone! Well done, though (trust me on this one) these threads rarely receive such balanced contributions!
E

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 10:46:46 AM   
NastyDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

What makes you think those nine months are a picnic for a man anywhere near a pregnant woman? Men have to endure nine months of hearing "this is all your fault, you bastard!"

Go pull your lower lip slowly over your head until it touches the back of your neck and get back to me.

Cumon th... I'm very disappointed, surely you have a better fallback than elementary schoolbus rhetoric when your button gets pushed?

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 11:00:10 AM   
NastyDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leashlord35

Great discussion, particularly the debate about education and gender between Seeks and NG.  NG notes the undisputed fact of women's increasing success in education and uses this point to counter Seek's assertion of male superiority in the area of intellectual innovation.  Given my, admittedly cursory, study in this area; I would argue that this phenomenon actually reinforces Seeks argument.  Yes, women have higher enrollment, a better attitude, better grades, and higher graduation rates;  but are these not perfect expressions of the female drive to conform to the expectations of the society in which she lives?  Changing societal expectations may change visible results, yet the underlying biological drives remain the same.  Males tend to prefer to control their environment rather than conform to it, and it is this attempt to achieve an advantage that leads to innovation.  I disagree with Seeks that males are intellectually superior to females.  I think that in a static intellectual environment both sexes would probably perform fairly equally.  But I do believe that males are biologically driven to alter the status of that environment in order to achieve advantage.  Just my thoughts.

Not sure there has actually been assertions that one gender is intellectually superior.  I saw references to achievements and factors affecting the ability to participate in achievements, and a few mostly good natured gender jabs. The vicious cycle of reproduction cannot be accomplished by either gender alone, so one could assert that it takes a man to make a woman or that it takes a woman to make a man.

One thing to note is the paper suggested in their research that the male and females under study were very similar in their thought processes and philosophy, until a competitive group or threat arrived. Basically that was considered the threshold where differences were then noted. This essentailly reinforces the fact that genders often respond to threats in different manners. I saw nothing in the paper to suggest one being superior over another. 

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RE: Researchers identify "male warrior effect" - 9/11/2006 11:05:38 AM   
leashlord35


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Status: offline 		Thanks LE for not being too hard on a first-timer!  To clarify my point; I do not assume that women just lay back and accept what is given to them.  But viewing things from the perspective that our highest need as organisms is to pass our genes on, it does produce different motivations.  Women are actively sought out by men, to the point where a woman does not need to do anything to acquire an endless supply of mates.  She may DESIRE to actively pursue specific mates and therefore be motivated to acquire advantage in that regard.  Men, generally, NEED to be active in their pursuit, if they wish to have mates at all.  Need is a vastly more powerful motivating force than desire.This is the most simplistic argument, of course, as it does not take into consideration any other of the myriad needs and desires which are part of human nature.  But I would argue that most, if not all of those needs and desires ultimately lead back to the beginning: our drive to procreate.  In modern society we have to some degree subjugated the fulfillment of this,  yet we still possess the drive and it consciously or unconcsiously guides our behavior.  It was in the past, always understood that women had a natural advantage in this regard.  And this knowledge quite likely was the origin of man subjugating woman.  Faced with a natural disadvantage, he innovated and created systems whereby he could regain the balance of power. To quote Thomas Jefferson: "Nature has given Woman power enough, It is good that the law gives her little." 

And yes, this one will probably offend someone!  Don't take this for Law, just my rambling thoughts on the nature of human behavior.

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