RE: Are there any feminists out there? (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 8:15:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

The question for me is: why do you perceive that there are conflicts? 



Because boys coming in to puberty are taught to feel they are to blame for centuries of injustice visited upon women?

Dont get me wrong, TypeAsub1, I studied feminist theory in college, I teach full-contact women's self defense professionally.  The point I am making is that Feminism is expanding people's awareness of human interaction, but young males have not been included as a positive aspect of this movement.

But then, I am one of those weird people that thinks that nobody gets out of here (wherever here is) unless we all do. 

Sinergy



TypeAsub1 -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 8:37:27 PM)

I think you're experience is limited.  20% of the student enrollment in the womens studies program at York University (3rd largest University in Canada) are male.  Now clearly that's not the 49% that they represent in our overall population, but clearly a good number of young men feel quite comfortable with feminism AND feel as though they are part of it and can make a meaningful contribution within womens issues and feminism.

I have also spent a number of years volunteering at a local womens shelter.  We have several young men there who also volunteer... they are fantastic rolemodels for the children in the shelter who are in need of positive males in their lives.

I can't speak to the USA - but given that my involvement with the York University program is based on 2004 stats.. I feel quite confident that young men today are evolving to be very comfortable with womens issues and the history and future of feminism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Because boys coming in to puberty are taught to feel they are to blame for centuries of injustice visited upon women?

Dont get me wrong, TypeAsub1, I studied feminist theory in college, I teach full-contact women's self defense professionally.  The point I am making is that Feminism is expanding people's awareness of human interaction, but young males have not been included as a positive aspect of this movement.

But then, I am one of those weird people that thinks that nobody gets out of here (wherever here is) unless we all do. 

Sinergy




Sinergy -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 8:50:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

I think you're experience is limited.  20% of the student enrollment in the womens studies program at York University (3rd largest University in Canada) are male.  Now clearly that's not the 49% that they represent in our overall population, but clearly a good number of young men feel quite comfortable with feminism AND feel as though they are part of it and can make a meaningful contribution within womens issues and feminism.

I have also spent a number of years volunteering at a local womens shelter.  We have several young men there who also volunteer... they are fantastic rolemodels for the children in the shelter who are in need of positive males in their lives.

I can't speak to the USA - but given that my involvement with the York University program is based on 2004 stats.. I feel quite confident that young men today are evolving to be very comfortable with womens issues and the history and future of feminism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Because boys coming in to puberty are taught to feel they are to blame for centuries of injustice visited upon women?

Dont get me wrong, TypeAsub1, I studied feminist theory in college, I teach full-contact women's self defense professionally.  The point I am making is that Feminism is expanding people's awareness of human interaction, but young males have not been included as a positive aspect of this movement.

But then, I am one of those weird people that thinks that nobody gets out of here (wherever here is) unless we all do. 

Sinergy




I could list the men and women I have interacted with as anecdotal evidence to support my position.

But I am not going to.

You win.

Peace out.

Sinergy



WingedSnake -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:08:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

Just curious if anyone on this site identifies as a feminist and, if so, how you square that with your D/s principles.


I am a feminist. My SadoMasochism and feminism were always in happpy coexistence, but i read Simone Beauvoir, not Andrea Dworkin.



WingedSnake -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:14:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Snip

Dont get me wrong, TypeAsub1, I studied feminist theory in college, I teach full-contact women's self defense professionally.  The point I am making is that Feminism is expanding people's awareness of human interaction, but young males have not been included as a positive aspect of this movement.

But then, I am one of those weird people that thinks that nobody gets out of here (wherever here is) unless we all do. 

Sinergy




This is exactly my position. Over the years, i had some very unpleasant discussions with *how should i call them?* fanatic feminists about the way men in general and boys especially should be seen and treated. I reached my personal point not-longer-able-to-understand as some 20 years ago a boy of three years was forced and with him his mother to leave the room, where we held a meeting, because he is one of them, a men, the living evil. I stopped attending the meeting after making my point of view clear. As in all other aspects we have to reach a better situation together, not against each other.



TypeAsub1 -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:21:54 PM)

Well... a single experience 20 years ago is a good basis upon which to negatively judge an activist movement which has afforded women the ability to work, fuck and live a life of equality...

Not surprising really... like I said, we have a growing number of people who watch the news and listen to Fox soundbites and believe that all Muslims are terrorists.  At some point one has to be a grown up and understand that anywhere you have large groups of people you are going to also have variation within that group and some of it is probably going to be unpleasant. 

Judging an entire group based on limited experiences or news clips is not tremendously good use of the complex functions of the human brain.



novicecourtesan -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:31:33 PM)

With all fairness to Winged Snake, I don't believe she negatively judged an activist movement, simply certain "fanatical feminists." I have also encountered these feminists and I would also have walked out of the above meeting. Using feminist to exclude males is a misuse of the word, no matter how its couched, and it is no excuse for some of the vitriol that is splattered on those who disagree with their definition of feminism. Especially since it changes all the time.

If I count myself as a feminist--and I hopped on that label very early in life, unaware that some thought it was derogatory--then I have been one for about 20-odd years. I have been extremely appreciative of the larger movement and equally disgusted with it  at various times during those years, sometimes at the same time. That meeting might have been the last straw on WingedSnake's back, and it's a shame if she decided to be less politically active, but it is certainly her choice--especially since the movement itself is not exactly "all-embracing." How can it be? We can't even agree here! :)





Sinergy -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:35:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WingedSnake


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapphirepleasure

Just curious if anyone on this site identifies as a feminist and, if so, how you square that with your D/s principles.


I am a feminist. My SadoMasochism and feminism were always in happpy coexistence, but i read Simone Beauvoir, not Andrea Dworkin.


Who didnt.

Sinergy

p.s.  I read both...



WingedSnake -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:38:12 PM)

I will not flame back.

Again i am a feminist and my view of the world is broad.



WingedSnake -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:40:20 PM)

Me too.

But i prefrered (attention chauvinistic female comment ahead) not only by her looks Simone de Beauvoir by far.



Sinergy -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:40:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WingedSnake

I will not flame back.

Again i am a feminist and my view of the world is broad.


I did not intend to get into a flame war with you, WingedSnake, so I apologize if I have upset you.

Studying Feminist Theory altered my worldview in ways I find both profoundly odd and extremely life-affirming.

Just me, probably wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



WingedSnake -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:43:39 PM)

Thank you for understanding me and elaborating on what i meant with more elegance than me.-), my use of the english language is still limited.

Surely i choose a special horrible and typical for the closed mindedness although exhibited in this thread example. I never ceased to work and fight, i am a political being at heart.




juliaoceania -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:45:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Well... a single experience 20 years ago is a good basis upon which to negatively judge an activist movement which has afforded women the ability to work, fuck and live a life of equality...

Not surprising really... like I said, we have a growing number of people who watch the news and listen to Fox soundbites and believe that all Muslims are terrorists.  At some point one has to be a grown up and understand that anywhere you have large groups of people you are going to also have variation within that group and some of it is probably going to be unpleasant. 

Judging an entire group based on limited experiences or news clips is not tremendously good use of the complex functions of the human brain.


I am the mother of a teenage boy with many teenage friends. I have to say that finding that out that boys are beginning to lag behind girls in many ways academically was disappointing to me. You know I do not blame the feminist movement for this, but I have to say that we as mothers need to care about and show as much interest in our sons as we have our daughters in recent years.

I think that boys are growing up more and more without strong male rite of passage and strong male role models that they can identify with, and this is a crying shame. I think Sinergy makes a valid point, especially when it comes to GenX and younger, because they are men often raised by women without strong male influences. We need to understand that we are not a gender neutral species, and that boys should be proud of their maleness, just as women need to be proud of their femaleness.

I remember when the Lifetime Movie was on one day, and my son said "Oh, it is the channel with the movies that show how evil all men are".. and you know what, there was something to that comment out of a 12 year old mouth.. that is often the images and messages young men get

So you can think that men do not get the message they are "bad", but that one comment from my son had a huge impact on how I viewed the messages he was getting about himself and his gender... and as a mother it troubled me.



WingedSnake -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:45:53 PM)

Sinergy, i did not talked to you, but to so and so type sub.

I did not felt flamed by you in any form, just the opposite, i think our points of view are very near to each other.



WingedSnake -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:50:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

snip


We need to understand that we are not a gender neutral species, and that boys should be proud of their maleness, just as women need to be proud of their femaleness.

snip


Juliaoceania, a resounding yes to your statement. That was the point i tried to make. And to teach one gender to look down on the other is the wrong way, about that i am very sure and there are enough examples around the world, where such wrong teachings are leading.



Sinergy -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:53:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WingedSnake

Sinergy, i did not talked to you, but to so and so type sub.

I did not felt flamed by you in any form, just the opposite, i think our points of view are very near to each other.


Fair enough, and thank you for clarifying it for me.

I see a multifaceted problem and I have uncertainty about what will solve it.

It is one of those situations where I feel I am helping drive the bus from point A, which is a bad place.  While I know it needs to go to point B, I am a bit fuzzy on where point B actually is.

Sinergy



FukinTroll -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:53:37 PM)

I think the neatest trick in the universe was making people think that men and women were the same species.



azzmaster -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:55:05 PM)

i define feminism quite simply as women and men being equal. no conflict with BDSM, except for goreans perhaps there is nothing different between bein a dom or a domme. either sex can be dominant submissive or vanilla. its just what is in ur nature. a strong woman tends to want a stronger man is she is a sub. i top men all the time. D/d and sexual equality are perfectly compatable in azzmasters world



Sinergy -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:56:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

I think the neatest trick in the universe was making people think that men and women were the same species.


I was not aware that anybody had really done this, FukinTroll.

There was an attempt a few years ago but it died.  I tend to think it died because women and men did not want to be the same.

My personal view on it is that people should be treated fairly.  Which is not the same as equally.

Sinergy



WingedSnake -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 9:58:30 PM)

For me the problem is so complex, that my english language abilities are not good enough, to write in depth. Even in my mothertongue it would be difficult, because of the complexity.

Your bus analogy is fitting.*g



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