RE: Are there any feminists out there? (Full Version)

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TypeAsub1 -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:05:03 PM)

I acknowledge that there are radicals.. there are always radicals.  To make negative associations based on radicals is foolish.   There are radical feminists, radical liberals, radical republicans, radical environmentalists, radical BDSM people... They are all radical individuals..  And those radicals should be judged on the basis of their actions. 

Those who view the group as a whole in a negative manner based on the actions of radical individuals or even a minority group of radical individuals who use that term and bastardize it are not using logic.   One of the advantages of growth and maturity is that we can look beyond our immediate experience and know that it isn't representative or necessarily true.

I know that the earth is not flat - even though it doesn't appear to be round.  I know that even though the news highlights criminals who are black men - most black men are not criminals.  This same logic extends to everything.  People seem to lose that logic where feminism is concerned... and more recently where terrorism is concerned. 

I think it's fascinating... what is it about Race and Feminism that seems to make this kind of logic so difficult for people? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan

With all fairness to Winged Snake, I don't believe she negatively judged an activist movement, simply certain "fanatical feminists." I have also encountered these feminists and I would also have walked out of the above meeting. Using feminist to exclude males is a misuse of the word, no matter how its couched, and it is no excuse for some of the vitriol that is splattered on those who disagree with their definition of feminism. Especially since it changes all the time.

If I count myself as a feminist--and I hopped on that label very early in life, unaware that some thought it was derogatory--then I have been one for about 20-odd years. I have been extremely appreciative of the larger movement and equally disgusted with it  at various times during those years, sometimes at the same time. That meeting might have been the last straw on WingedSnake's back, and it's a shame if she decided to be less politically active, but it is certainly her choice--especially since the movement itself is not exactly "all-embracing." How can it be? We can't even agree here! :)






Sinergy -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:08:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WingedSnake

For me the problem is so complex, that my english language abilities are not good enough, to write in depth. Even in my mothertongue it would be difficult, because of the complexity.

Your bus analogy is fitting.*g


WingedSnake,

In anybodies mother tongue it is difficult.  It is one of those things that 20000 years from new people can examine it in the lab and determine what the best approach would be.  We live in the situation at hand.  We are given the problem and how we choose to deal with it will determine the outcome for people 100s or 1000s of years in the future.

I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Sinergy





slave2feet07 -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:14:12 PM)

I relate to what juliaoceania says. I think men are expected to act like how a woman likes it these days instead of a man acting how he wants to act.
 
I also look at it this way. Through childhood women are taught not to trust men but are men taught not to trust women? Women are taught to believe that a man is guilty until proven innocent while most men believe that a woman is innocent until proven guilty. Men are constantly walking on broken glass to qualify a womans trust in most situations like dating. This is what I would define as male oppression.
 
Men are constantly put down and seen as people who will use you or betray you in some way. Men constantly have to prove to women that we are not all these bad things that women are thinking in the back of their minds. If a male thought not to trust any woman until she proves otherwise, he would be seen as a misogynist or a man who is too bitter for a woman to handle.
 
The way many women perceive men is not a positive view at all but men are expected to be positive towards women or else it means we don't respect women. 



novicecourtesan -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:19:26 PM)

quote:

If a male thought not to trust any woman until she proves otherwise, he would be seen as a misogynist or a man who is too bitter for a woman to handle.


deservedly so. anyone viewing the opposite gender with such mistrust without "other proof"  is too bitter for anyone to handle. A little caution may be wise, but I think any man with that attitude is downright chauvanist unless he's been given personal reasons to feel that suspicious.

I cannot address the rest of your posts, or most of your posts on this subject. The chasm between us is insurmountable.



Zonk -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:21:54 PM)

quote:

I acknowledge that there are radicals.. there are always radicals.  To make negative associations based on radicals is foolish. 

The problem is that the feminist movement is losing PR momentum with the population at large because the radicals are getting the face time in the media.

That being said, every feminist organization that I've tried to participate in has been subtly unwelcoming to males. I support equality in all forms, but I sometimes find it very difficult to identify with feminism.



juliaoceania -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:24:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan

quote:

If a male thought not to trust any woman until she proves otherwise, he would be seen as a misogynist or a man who is too bitter for a woman to handle.


deservedly so. anyone viewing the opposite gender with such mistrust without "other proof"  is too bitter for anyone to handle. A little caution may be wise, but I think any man with that attitude is downright chauvanist unless he's been given personal reasons to feel that suspicious.

I cannot address the rest of your posts, or most of your posts on this subject. The chasm between us is insurmountable.



I think you took that one line out of context, he was stating that women view men with distrust and this is seen as understandable, but when it is reversed men are seen as "bad". Your response to him kinda proved his point actually.



novicecourtesan -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:32:18 PM)

actually, I did not. I've been wanting to respond to many of his posts on this subject in other threads and find them outrageous, but I do think we're on total opposite sides of the fence and am trying to stay out of a flame war. I won't get into further analysis, but regarding that particular statement, I think some consideration should be given for the physical: women are taught to view men with distrust for fear of physical violence and rape. Many take that too far, and were the genders in the statement reversed, I would agree that such a woman is probably equally too bitter to handle. But whatever the odds, in the case of distrust, women are entitled to just a little more, if only for the *general* physical differences. What you decide is a little more is up to you as a person, and yes, this too can be manipulated by clever individuals, male or female, for their own purposes

So I stand by my post.



juliaoceania -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:45:06 PM)

quote:

But whatever the odds, in the case of distrust, women are entitled to just a little more, if only for the *general* physical differences. What you decide is a little more is up to you as a person, and yes, this too can be manipulated by clever individuals, male or female, for their own purposes



I took his post to be about relationship structures between men and women.. not if a woman should distrust a man in a dark alley.

There is a definite double standard in the level of acceptance women get when ranting about a man in a negative way compared to men. If a woman calls a man a name it is more acceptable than calling a woman a name... it is something  I have noticed.



juliaoceania -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 10:57:21 PM)

I wanted to add something just to be clear, I have read his other posts, and I understand your resistance to them. But it would be wise to note that many men feel this underlying tension about feminism... and whether that is justified in your mind or not is really not the issue. The issue is the future and everyone feeling valued, and it really is not a good idea to have 50 percent of the population feeling devalued and unable to even express those feelings because they think (in some cases rightly so) that they will be set upon for doing so.



novicecourtesan -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 11:20:27 PM)

I understand 50% of the population is men, but not all are resistant to feminism. Even assuming that is the case, I understand their resistance, I've felt it for reasons that men can understand, and I've posted here. And I did agree with your original post. So, sticking with the post and subject at hand:

I cannot agree with comments that make generalizations about all men thinking positively of women and all women using double standards or demanding proof of trust, frankly, letting the idea that any of this is some form "male oppression" go by without some comment. Of course there are some double standards...but look at the double standards? And there are double standards for name calling...but look at the names! I think there is a dividing line between personal experiences and making sweeping generalizations every time the word feminism is mentioned.

Feminism is a complicated subject and there should be some resistance to it. But if we focus on the double standards and inequalities and see them as some sort of conspiracy of oppression--for either gender--then I just think we're going to get too damn bitter to fuck anymore.

That is, you see, my first concern. :P



TypeAsub1 -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 11:29:33 PM)

I agree on the PR front.  The media is problematic for me on sooo many levels.  The media is just big-business these days.  They act with too little regard for the amount of influence they bring to our world.  Today Obama is a saint... soon they'll trash him.  When the Iraq war started, you couldn't find a popular media outlet to speak up in opposition.  Today, it's popular to question the Iraq war.  They are simply catering to what will pad their pockets as oppossed to presenting critical thought and opinion.

If the media were to portray boring, standard feminist women, there wouldn't be much attention or grandstanding to pull out of it.  They'll say "it's not newsworthy".  And if popular attention is newsworthy - then it's not.  We're all subject to so much media influence and in the end it's all driven by the need/desire to sell us on something.  Even textbook publishers are now considering adding "product placement" into their textbooks.  Soon Johnny and Suzie may be reading a History textbook.. and they'll see references to fox news.. or Cocacola.. or CNN.  Not because it's really terribly relevant to the text, but because those companies paid to be mentioned by name in that textbook.  

I'm not sure how we stop these things from having such drastic influence over our perceptions, thoughts and beliefs, but it's more important than ever that we learn to question the news, question generalizations and singular experiences...

As to your personal experience.  I can only say that I'm sorry you've found that to be the case.  I know that within my very active feminist acquaintances, there is a genuine effort to be inclusive - but I do recognize that it's not always prevalent everywhere.  It really does behoove all of us to be overt in pointing out those issues when they arise if we are to continue our efforts for equality for everyone... all people, all genders, all races, all sexual orientations...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonk

The problem is that the feminist movement is losing PR momentum with the population at large because the radicals are getting the face time in the media.

That being said, every feminist organization that I've tried to participate in has been subtly unwelcoming to males. I support equality in all forms, but I sometimes find it very difficult to identify with feminism.




juliaoceania -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/19/2007 11:40:02 PM)

quote:

I cannot agree with comments that make generalizations about all men thinking positively of women and all women using double standards or demanding proof of trust, frankly, letting the idea that any of this is some form "male oppression" go by without some comment. Of course there are some double standards...but look at the double standards? And there are double standards for name calling...but look at the names


Yes, look at the names, asshole (bitch), dick (twat), prick (cunt)... I think that is looks like the same sorta thing to me, just your idea of it that makes it seem different.

If you think that I am making generalizations (I did not know if that was pointed at me), this entire thread is full of them so I thought it was commonly understood that we are speaking of trends as we expereince them as individuals, not in absolutes. I am not speaking in absolutes because I do not know absolutely everyone.

I am one of those 50% that is tense about feminism because of my discipline (anthropology). I am humanist. If you thought that I think that every man is tense about feminism on some level, well I think the vast majority are.. .on some level... and then there are a small number of women like me that are uncomfortable with it too. I am not uncomfortable with the gains of feminism.. I am GRATEFUL for them, but I am uneasy about the future of it. The reason why? Because there is this subtle undermining of male/female relationships that it has spawned in someways.. feminism is defensive about some of these things instead of acknowledging that it should address it.

I love love love men. I just do. I think they often get treated unfairly by women. I do not mean that they are economically or politically "oppressed", I am talking on a relationship level. They are often treated like they feel less than we feel. They are often unappreciated for what they give us as women. They live with the fear and distrust they engender just by their maleness... just imagine going through life with that head trip on you? How would it feel? I am becoming more sensitive to that because I have these two guys in my life that have expressed how it feels... it doesn't feel good for them.

Sometimes when we step out of our own skin just to try to get a view from another set of footprints it can be extremely illuminating after that feeling of threat wears off. I do not find slave3feet offensive, I hear genuine issues he is trying to express about how he feels as a man. Now I totally disagree with some of what he has said, but that is his honest feelings. Those feelings are just as valid as yours and mine are when a man invades our space and makes us feel "small"... these are feelings, they are not rational.

Until we try to really understand each other we are just going to keep talking at each other.






puella -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/20/2007 4:02:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

I think the neatest trick in the universe was making people think that men and women were the same species.



Men and women are the same species; they are different genders of the same species. 

I think that there is a vast difference in acknowledging and embracing the differences inherent (in most cases) in each sex, and trying to maintain that, because of those differences, one sex is better or more superior than the other... which is were all our sex related issues spring from, I would suggest.

This need to find strength in a bonded team of 'similars' versus finding strength as an individual, in general makes me uncomfortable.  Certainly, there are benefits to subscribing to and learning from focused groups, but the potential for those groups to vet aggressive and adversarial 'proponents' for the 'cause', also seems to be a recurring problem.

I think that the feminist movement has grown up lot in the past 15 years or so... I think even some of its most feral leaders have mellowed with age.  The true nature of the movement, as I understand it (or perhaps choose to understand it) and apply it is simply this:

That the characteristics of the feminine do not and should not allow for any individual (including yourself) to limit who you are or how much you can and should try to achieve as a human being.  Embracing them and utilizing them to their fullest potential however, is the responsibility of that individual, and empowerment of any kind is something that can really only be achieved when you start with yourself. 

I really think the days of man hating are long gone (and very passe.... sort of like leg warmers,  or teen-age angst).  One (and sometimes a movement as a whole) simply evolves past that and grows up at some point.  I also think that the need (for both men and women) to cling to the idea that that clichéd meme is what feminism is actually about, has more to do with their on need to attempt to dis-empower something which feels threatening to them, without fully understanding it.




ravenairsprite -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/20/2007 5:04:51 AM)

quote:

What Feminist Say


Sadly I'd have to say I agree. I've seen this all too often. I have a male friend who was sexually abused as a child. He was accused of lying until the situation was caught redhanded as it were.

I've also seen complaints that men get all the jobs but I kinda have to laugh at that. I've walked into a McDonalds and about 95% of the staff were women. Oh wait I thought men got all the jobs.

Better pay? Not really. It's pretty much dependant on skills. You get the pay you earn. At least as far as I've seen.

A women gets pregnant while unwed (I've been here). Who gets the blame? The guy for not wearing a condom. A woman has the responsibility to say no I don't want to have sex if not on birth control.

Another thing I don't get.....why on earth would you complain about not being equal on military issues? Does it seem like a good idea to have everyone from the age of 18 to 30 being drafted to you? Not only that but having substandard military is a good way to get more killed. If you can't hack it don't chance it.

I've some extremely abusive women in my life and yet if defended against the guy goes to jail for 5 years. Meanwhile the women who started beating the heck outta the guy is sitting at home watching TV. Yes it does happen.

Ahhhhh the PTA issue. How many fathers you see who go to those things? Not many right? Well it isn't so much about them not being interested as them feeling like they would be looked at oddly by the women there. It's also that the women will complain that the man is overly aggresive about some things. Unless the father is gay then of course he is just acting on instinct. That one just kinda confuses me.

Not everyone can get a job. I don't care if your a man or woman. Their field may not have enough open spaces. They may not have finished high school and so are discriminated against because of that. (Yes it's discrimination. I'm a highly intelligent individual and can pick things up fairly quickly but even just trying to get a job at Arbys seems like an impossible task. Not because I'm a woman but because I dropped out and have been unable to go back for one reason or another) My sons father joined the military soon after I got pregnant. The reason for this? Job security. Doesn't gaurantee it to you though. Even military personnell have issues getting jobs.

I know some wonderful fathers and would LOVE to have their kids full time but there is gender issues there too. They will never get that chance because it's all too easy to make a man look bad and besides the woman should have the child. She's a better caretaker. Sometimes that's questionable at best, at worst downright horrifying.

Just some of my thoughts. I believe in equality at least as far as rules and regulations in every day life goes. As far as being a sub. Well I have the right to choose to leave the situation if I'm not comfortable with it don't I? So I guess I'm not really a feminist just an equalist.



novicecourtesan -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/20/2007 8:05:15 AM)

julieoceania: my comments about generalizations were not directed at you.

There is no questions that men don't have it easy in modern society. It's equally clear that many men use little inequalities and double standards to belittle feminism and feminists. Last night, I was watching television and saw a man who filed complaint against "ladies night" in nightclubs because it was discriminatory against men. He's taking it to any cour that will hear him. That's a double standard, of course...is it justified?

I'm not sure what's expected of women when they hear sweeping generalizations about  how men are routinely discriminated against. There is a part of me that is simply impatient with that--I admit it--until I hear something more. These double standards and inequalities are often used by men and women to shout down feminism as "manhating." I do hear genuine issues in some of these posts, but I'm not sure that I'm required to sit quietly by so that men feel safe to vent against feminism.

There is absolutely some truth in the discrimination against men--custody cases, as it's been pointed out, are routinely discriminated against in court. If I'm impatient, it's because I balance that against the thousand inequalities I see and hear about women every day.

As I said, I did not want to start a flame war. I have always been open to new viewpoints. But when I think that someone is using the inequalities and double standards to dismiss feminism and women at large, am I supposed to keep quiet be sensitive to his view point? What about my right to disagree, vehemently, the right to challenge, to ask for more details? Not every challenging or critical post is totally dismissive. There is obviously some truth to the inequalities that men face, but, personally, I think they pale in comparison to the challenges the women have and will face.

I agree with everything you said about men not being treated fairly in relationships. But I am not willing to throw the blame on feminism or anything else, and I really don't have to ignore belittling generalizations about women. We are willing to step back and allow different viewpoints; that does not mean we have to silently accept them to make the other person feel valued. I am happy to disagree--vehemently--with slave2feet7's original post--without being accused of being a feminist who is trying to crush a man's spirit. I am as entitled to my opinion, and my problems were not the spirit of the post, but, again, the sweeping generalizations against women.

Feminism has its problems, but I am wary when it used used to globally criticize women, portray men as hapless victims (are women allowed to sleep around as men? how many wives support their lovers by renting nice apartment...vs. husbands doing the same for mistresses?) or blame a movement for bad personal expereiences. Let's not forget that we're just crawling out of centuries of inequality. Not every man is onboard with that. I respect that people may have differing views, but I'm not the only one who feels threatened here.....



juliaoceania -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/20/2007 8:31:30 AM)

My mom was a young woman when the second wave of feminism struck. She has 4 kids. There were feminists that looked down on her for being a stay at home mom, I think this part of the movement is what sticks out in people's minds today...

I was raised in a traditional family, but there was nothing that I felt I could not be or do because of my gender and I was shocked when I found out that others were not reared with this idea... I have had some hard places in the road because of my gender, no doubt about it! But at the basic core of myself, I have never felt an ounce of inferiority or superiority due to my gender.

I am not a feminist, I am a humanist. I have had people argue with me and tell me I am a feminist because I do not understand what feminism is (my Daddy is one of these people..lol).I just support human rights for all. I want to transcend the feminist movement in the way I view the world.

As far as men litigating against "Lady's Night", well that is a small price to pay for women to get the complete experience of living in a fair and equal society. You know men have had their institutions, like all men's clubs and training academies, infiltrated by women. I DO see something wrong with all female gyms, lady's nights, and this sort of thing, when men are not allowed to have their special spaces.

At the time women were suing for the right to join men's clubs I saw the repercussions, which would be that genders would be forced to have their spaces they share with each other held in common. I do not think this is right, but, women started this trend. I cannot fault men for showing there is a basic inequality about it.

I do not think you and I "get" things about being men. There is no rite of passage to manhood. We had  our rite of passage when we started menstruating, men do not get this landmark to tell them that they are grown. I respect people that label themselves "feminist", but there is power in words, and when one labels their entire worldview with the heading of one gender, well that kinda emotionally disconnects the other from their movement. It was something that often happened in the 60s and 70s, people identifying with their minority and oppressed status, embracing it, and defining themselves by it to empower themselves... but that tact is also exclusionary.

The male and the female are both aspects of us, they are parts of a whole, personally I think that the problem with feminism is the word feminism... where is the man in that word? Why should he embrace your vision? I am not talking logic here, I am talking about power relationships inherent in society, and when one excludes 50% of the population in the label they choose I wonder how they cannot understand the power and the disempowerment of this?

And btw, I do not believe what we are engaging in is a flamewar, I am just expressing my views and not upset at all.



novicecourtesan -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/20/2007 9:20:48 AM)

Hi julieoceania...

No, I don't think we're engaged in a flame war at all, I think this is an interesting discussion, and I don't think we're actually that far apart. If it starts dominating the thread too much, feel free to contact me by email to continue.

The ladies night/gentlemen's club issue is interesting, but they're not exactly parallel. One of the many reasons that women have been inflitrating old boy's clubs, etc., is because in many fields, the clubs and backrooms are where negotiations and introductions and networking are done, often for centuries. It's been proven in court that these clubs provide professional and economic advantage to men over women--not in all cases, but many. This is the same argument against exclusionary golf course that had long histories of not including Jews or minorities. There are still many, many institutions which are legally allowed to discriminate against women, and lots of boys-only clubs around. The ladies night example is weak legally because the only benefit this man is being denied is getting into one club for one night. Unlike private gentlemen's or old boy's clubs, there are many alternatives for Mr. Ladies Night, and his rights are not being violated (he has no right to enter a private establishment). This is different than, say, the first female cadet at the Citadel, which was getting government funding and had larger issues of women in the military.

I hate the idea of men becoming nervous, overly sensitive, fearful, or antagonistic against strong women. I hate that feminism has become the buzzword for manhater. It's not an ideal word, but the reason it evolved is largely because women have traditionally been the oppression minority. The majority ususally does not concern itself with rights as much as the minority does--the majority has all the power, after all. Feminism is probably a way to identify a particular minority and its place in the larger space. "Humanist" does not imply women's issues in particular--nor does it imply gay rights, or race rights. I can see how the word can be exclusionary, but that can be context as much as anything else, a need to identify the community involved.

I was raised in a traditional Indian culture which is not always supportive of the strong woman. But my father and mother treated me and my brother as total equals, and I too was shocked to realize that not everyone agreed I could do anything I wanted, and that I had limits because I was a woman (and because I was Indian, incidentally, which I also didn't realize). The feminist movement was my first step in identifying what I respected and what I rejected about my upbringing and others' reactions to it.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to transcend the feminist movement, but I don't think that gives it the full credit. There are a lot  of bad apples on both sides, but feminism is the reason you and I can argue freely about these issues online as women and still assert my right to be submissive or to break against tradition. It seems like these things have always been there, but really, these freedoms have been around for only about 40 years--and the vote only about 100. So I give the feminist movement a little credit and a little leeway even when things get ridiculous.



thetammyjo -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/20/2007 9:23:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not think you and I "get" things about being men. There is no rite of passage to manhood. We had our rite of passage when we started menstruating, men do not get this landmark to tell them that they are grown. I respect people that label themselves "feminist", but there is power in words, and when one labels their entire worldview with the heading of one gender, well that kinda emotionally disconnects the other from their movement. It was something that often happened in the 60s and 70s, people identifying with their minority and oppressed status, embracing it, and defining themselves by it to empower themselves... but that tact is also exclusionary.

The male and the female are both aspects of us, they are parts of a whole, personally I think that the problem with feminism is the word feminism... where is the man in that word? Why should he embrace your vision? I am not talking logic here, I am talking about power relationships inherent in society, and when one excludes 50% of the population in the label they choose I wonder how they cannot understand the power and the disempowerment of this?

And btw, I do not believe what we are engaging in is a flamewar, I am just expressing my views and not upset at all.


I think we would do a good deal better if we had rites of passage again for both males and females and others. Getting your period does not equal being treated as an adult and usually it just happens with little fanfare and you are taught to "hide it" in some fashion (wear loose clothes, dark colors, don't talk about it, etc).

I taught a course on being a male citizen in ancient Athens, particularly during the classical period. What I hoped and seemed to have succeeded in doing was to demonstrate that much of what we consider natural is really social and trained, it varies across time and culture.

So when feminist say they want equality they don't mean turning males into females or some unidentifiable sex, they are talking about the social and trained inequalities that do not allow the individual female to become what she may have the natural abilities to become. It isn't about who has it easier or harder, it's about not limiting people because of some natural condition so that they are prevented or discouraged from becoming al she can be.

One can be an advocate for both men and women in this matter but traditionally humanists ignored anything that didn't relate to men or males and thus feminism had to develop to look at women's position in society.



juliaoceania -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/20/2007 9:49:51 AM)

Let me say that I used to call myself a humanitarian, but that caused arguments too.

I still do not feel right about labeling something so utterly wonderful with my gender (meaning a movement about acceptance for everyone). I see it as exclusionary. I am not in ancient Athens, I am not a student of Western Civilization in that model. I do not feel right about empowering one sex by labeling an entire movement for all human beings after them. I do not think women are superior or inferior. It does not feel right in my heart to identify with that word "feminism". I think there will always be a gut reaction based upon that word.

I am thankful for the historical feminist movement. I have said this before, I know full well what that movement means to me in my life, as well as the progresssive movement.

Perhaps menstruating was not introduced to you the way it was introduced me ... it meant that I was a physical woman capable of becoming with child... in my reality that was a huge rite of passage, but I in no way speak for other women about the impact it had on them.

I do not see why women insist on stereotypical male chauvenistic things like "Lady's Nights" and keeping them in place. I do not understand why the insistence on allowing some forms of gender discrimination to exist. If one wants no gender discrimination they cannot call foul when someone points out it works both ways. I do not understand why feminists would care about that, I mean basically it is offering women low priced drinks as bait for men. I know this, I used to work in bars, Lady's Night is not about female empowerment.  I do not understand why for the life of me women would care if they stopped that tradition since they gain so much by being allowed into all male institutions.

I guess my view has changed because I am the mother of a son. Therefore I do not want to identify myself in a movement that excludes him by its very label...



Sinergy -> RE: Are there any feminists out there? (2/21/2007 2:52:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you think that I am making generalizations (I did not know if that was pointed at me), this entire thread is full of them so I thought it was commonly understood that we are speaking of trends as we expereince them as individuals, not in absolutes. I am not speaking in absolutes because I do not know absolutely everyone.



On a related note...

Women's faults are many.
Men have but two:
Everything they say,
and everything they do.

Clear as mud?

Sinergy



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