RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 3:23:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I'd prefer that people not take Northern Ireland alone as a lens for Christianity.


.....by the same token, we should not take the actions of Israel in Lebanon as a lens for all Judaism. Extremists, of all stripes, generate situations which polarise opinion and in doing so, distort opinion.



dcnovice -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 3:29:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I'd prefer that people not take Northern Ireland alone as a lens for Christianity.


.....by the same token, we should not take the actions of Israel in Lebanon as a lens for all Judaism. Extremists, of all stripes, generate situations which polarise opinion and in doing so, distort opinion.


Agreed, particularly since I believe many in Israel object to their government's policies.



Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 4:44:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

Islam is no religion of peace never has been and never will be. For those that Believe in the Bible look up Genesis 16:12 God's prophecy concerning the Arab.

"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

These people are purely evil. There is no redemption for them


Fascinating.

So what you are saying is every person of Arabic descent is a follower of Islam?

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 4:52:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

dcnovice points out that religions are too multi facetted to summarise simply. This is clearly true but it represents  a somewhat ivory tower intellectual approach.

The people who are enthusiastically murdering one another in Iraq  at this very moment, mostly, are not intellectuals and are responding to the ethos inculcated by their religious experience. This behaviour therefore calls in to question whether Islam is a religion of Peace.



So what you are saying, in essence, is that people who are not intelligent are representative of the basic tenets of a religion?

I would tend to think that idiots who dont understand either their or other people's religions are the last people one should use as examples of a religious ethos.

If it works for you, go for it.  However I would like to point out that it was either Pat Robertson who made statements about Arabs that (if you switch Arab with United States) Osama Bin Laden made about the United States.

Sinergy





dcnovice -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 5:25:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."


Just looked up the passage in both the KJV and the NRSV and didn't see the word Arab in either one. Perhaps that interpretation came later? Also noted the singular he, which seems to suggest that the prophecy applies to Ishmael alone. There's no mention of its applying to his descendants.

quote:

These people are purely evil. There is no redemption for them


Isn't that the same thing Muslim extremists say about us?



Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 5:41:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

These people are purely evil. There is no redemption for them


Isn't that the same thing Muslim extremists say about us?


It is also the same thing that Pat Robertson says about Muslim extremists.

And so on, and so forth, and...

Sinergy



Level -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 5:47:51 PM)

Can we get Robertson (or Falwell) to sit on the floor, nose to nose with bin Ladin, until they promise to be good?



juliaoceania -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 7:53:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Can we get Robertson (or Falwell) to sit on the floor, nose to nose with bin Ladin, until they promise to be good?


If we can get Pat Robertson to call off the hit hurricanes he prayed to God for before they hit Osama... Pat likes to smite his enemies with hurricanes that God is so generous in supplying.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/24/2006 11:44:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
dcnovice points out that religions are too multi facetted to summarise simply. This is clearly true but it represents  a somewhat ivory tower intellectual approach.

The people who are enthusiastically murdering one another in Iraq  at this very moment, mostly, are not intellectuals and are responding to the ethos inculcated by their religious experience. This behaviour therefore calls in to question whether Islam is a religion of Peace.


So what you are saying, in essence, is that people who are not intelligent are representative of the basic tenets of a religion?

I would tend to think that idiots who dont understand either their or other people's religions are the last people one should use as examples of a religious ethos.

If it works for you, go for it.  However I would like to point out that it was either Pat Robertson who made statements about Arabs that (if you switch Arab with United States) Osama Bin Laden made about the United States.
Sinergy


No I am not saying any such thing. The texts of the major religions are highly sophisticated documents that can be studied in an intellectual way. The various and sometimes contradictory messages in those texts can be and are used and disseminated to the less intellectual. This is especially true of Islam where the Friday prayers will include , so I understand, a pep talk as to how the devout should behave on any particular current issue.

It was well known in the UK and Europe that firebrand Mullahs were preaching hatred and anti Western aggression , in the UK mosques,to the extent that London was jokingly referred to as Londonistan. Our "clever" secret services thought they had things under control. They were wrong and the London bombings followed.

What I was saying was that if significant numbers of devout followers of a religion behave violently then it follows to me that violent messages are somewhere in the religious texts.
To compare violent Christians is not the same because at least in secular Europe, religion does not have the "hold" that it does in many parts of the USA. Even in the USA Christians are not murdering one another on a large scale, minor exceptions being anti abortion violence. Tho' of course interdemoninational Christian violence has recently occured, N Ireland being the best example.



drbedlem -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 1:26:14 AM)

Islam has never been a religion of peace. During the height of the Ottoman Empire, jews and christians were allowed to live in moslem lands but were heavily taxed for the privilage,and that by Mohammedan decree. Whereever islam bordered on an infidel land, that border was soaked in blood. Wahhabiism, the most extreme of the islamic factions is only about 200 years old and has the bloodiest legacy of all islam. Notice that the followers of the Aga Khan do not follow jihad and they are the ideaological heirs of Hassan ibn Said,the Old Man of the Mountain and the head of the Hashassisin. The current crop of Islamics practice female genital mutilation,labor and sexual slavery, honor killings of women who do not keep "pure" islamic practices, beheading for "crimes" such as homosexuality and other barbaric practices. At best, most of the islamic world has not left the 12th centuary. The islamic nations of Africa that follow Shariia law are the most savage and barbaric nations on earth. Recently,a Niger prince wanted to free his slaves, publiclly. But,since the official policy is that slavery does not exist in Niger,the prince was kept under house arrest and his slaves were redistributed amoung his family members. Currently, a large amount of the sex slave trade runs through muslim lands with women of the Former Soviet Union being the current vogue.A lot of Russian women disappear into Turkey and points south, never to be heard from again.The islamic extremists have stated that they will own America within 100 years and that the entire world will be under shariia law.Personally, I am of the opinion that we should see what kind of good muslims they really are and saturation bomb their military bases and nuclear facilities with Spam.Not the cyber kind, the pork kind in the blue can. Better yet,let's load up a C-5 transport plane with poland china sows fitted out with tinsel halos and fairy wings and let the pork fly.The image of flying pigs coming in on the Grand Mosque in Mecca at just under mach one is rather humorous. And if we do it during Ramadan, maximum chaos with minimum damage to infrastructure.Remember that during the Iraq-Iran war,children were used as living mine detectors by sending them out into mine fields holding a plastic "Key to Paradise" and several different groups use human bombs to advance their agenda. The most recent was a grandmother suicide bomber.We can not negotiate with any group that uses such methods, we can only wipe them from the face of the earth.Islam must either change their dogma and join the modern world or learn to be tolerant of those who reject their brutal religion.But,as long as the religious police in Saudi can beat women for showing an ankle, when students in Pakistan can throw acid in the faces of women who do not wear the veil, and as long as ignorant imans who have read only the Koran can issue fatwas condeming infidels and apostates to death for imagined slights against the faith and the prophet, there is no hope of a negotiated peace.Afghanistan sentenced a man to death for converting to Christianity, he had to be smuggled out of his own country. Considering that Mohammed was a raider of pilgrim caravans,a wife killer and a child raper, I really see nothing in their gutter religion worth emulating.I have seen an honor killing in Algeria, a stoning in Nigeria, and an execution in Pakistan during my travels in the1980's.I would rather sit in a rattlesnake den during mating season then spend a minute with a moslem of any stripe.My chances of survival are much better with the sidewinders.



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 2:39:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Another sourced of Muslim pride...

quote:

Explosive device strapped to 57-year-old woman suicide bomber activated near IDF soldiers operating in Jabalya area in north Gaza; three soldiers sustain light injuries in incident; 'I offer myself as a sacrifice to God and to the homeland,' terrorist says on video prior to attack
"I am very proud of what she did. Allahu Akbar (God is greatest)," one of her sons, Fuad, 31, told Reuters. Source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3331878,00.html



For a strip of land that daily suffers incursions, shell and missile fire, where innocent people are killed on a daily basis, where people have their homes destroyed, where the population is systematically terrorised, why the hell would you expect a rational response?  All these activities by the Israelis are illegal under international law, yet the sanctimonious voices in the west cheer Israel on from the sidelines instead when indictments against Israeli leaders for war crimes and crimes against humanity would be more appropriate. 

It's laughable to condemn Islam as violent when people who just happen to be muslim are trapped in a concentration camp take up self destructive action. In many ways what they do is rational because they are not dealing with a rational government that wants a negotiated peace. Israel has undermined peace at every turn because it sees a greater Israel as its objective but I wouldn't expect an American to know that with the quality of objective journalism on this subject in America.

Now lets look at Chritians. An unprovoked invasion of Iraq causing over 600,000 deaths. (its irrelevent who killed them, without the invasion they wouldn't be dead.) A consistent undermining of governments in the middle east for over 60 years with no conscience as to how many muslims are killed. Material and moral support for oppressive murderous regimes with little regard for innocents killed. The west has used poison gas, assassinations, to outright military interference to fullfill their aims in the region.

Its absolutely laughable that after sixty years of interference the west somehow expects a rational respnse from people it has consistently undermined and exploited. If there is religious extremism in the middle east, it is the west that has caused it because every legitimate political expression by the people in the area has been snuffed out by the west until the only expression people have left is their religion!!!!



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 2:47:29 AM)

You could make a similar argument against Christians, Jews and Budhists, whatever. Examen the history of western Empires. Examen the current American Empire. Though no doubt you probably watch sanitized news and dare I say, avidly consume propaganda that reinforces the vision of your world view.



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 3:26:10 AM)

General point

We've had the age of 'Let's have us a nigger.' and the age of the less than human Jew. Both were proved in the minds of their denigrators through rational argument, that what they got is what they deserved. The same thing is happening on this thread.

For all those who have never traveled outside the western world, just try to step out of your shoes a moment and look at the west from the perspective of someone from another culture. You will probably see a violent, double dealing, stop at nothing, materialist culture, where human life is cheap or at least cheaper than a cheap tank of gas.



NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 3:44:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Another sourced of Muslim pride...

quote:

Explosive device strapped to 57-year-old woman suicide bomber activated near IDF soldiers operating in Jabalya area in north Gaza; three soldiers sustain light injuries in incident; 'I offer myself as a sacrifice to God and to the homeland,' terrorist says on video prior to attack
"I am very proud of what she did. Allahu Akbar (God is greatest)," one of her sons, Fuad, 31, told Reuters. Source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3331878,00.html



For a strip of land that daily suffers incursions, shell and missile fire, where innocent people are killed on a daily basis, where people have their homes destroyed, where the population is systematically terrorised, why the hell would you expect a rational response?  All these activities by the Israelis are illegal under international law, yet the sanctimonious voices in the west cheer Israel on from the sidelines instead when indictments against Israeli leaders for war crimes and crimes against humanity would be more appropriate. 

It's laughable to condemn Islam as violent when people who just happen to be muslim are trapped in a concentration camp take up self destructive action. In many ways what they do is rational because they are not dealing with a rational government that wants a negotiated peace. Israel has undermined peace at every turn because it sees a greater Israel as its objective but I wouldn't expect an American to know that with the quality of objective journalism on this subject in America.

Now lets look at Chritians. An unprovoked invasion of Iraq causing over 600,000 deaths. (its irrelevent who killed them, without the invasion they wouldn't be dead.) A consistent undermining of governments in the middle east for over 60 years with no conscience as to how many muslims are killed. Material and moral support for oppressive murderous regimes with little regard for innocents killed. The west has used poison gas, assassinations, to outright military interference to fullfill their aims in the region.

Its absolutely laughable that after sixty years of interference the west somehow expects a rational respnse from people it has consistently undermined and exploited. If there is religious extremism in the middle east, it is the west that has caused it because every legitimate political expression by the people in the area has been snuffed out by the west until the only expression people have left is their religion!!!!


Agreed 100%.



NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 3:45:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

General point

We've had the age of 'Let's have us a nigger.' and the age of the less than human Jew. Both were proved in the minds of their denigrators through rational argument, that what they got is what they deserved. The same thing is happening on this thread.

For all those who have never traveled outside the western world, just try to step out of your shoes a moment and look at the west from the perspective of someone from another culture. You will probably see a violent, double dealing, stop at nothing, materialist culture, where human life is cheap or at least cheaper than a cheap tank of gas.


and again.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 3:52:55 AM)

Meatcleaver presents his usual facts regarding the unjust treatment of Islamic Arabs, in particular by Israel, with American support. These facts cannot really be denied, certainly not by me.
BUT
It is well documented that many firebrand Mullahs in the UK in fact receive large Welfare benefits for both health reasons and the number of children they produce but cannot support. That does not stop them denouncing the West the UK and in some of the more obscure mosques setting up cells with the express intent of murdering innocent people. eg the shoe bomber who was caught before he could blow himself and an aeroplane to bits.
How do you explain that meatcleaver?

Also I have pointed out on other threads the virulent racism openly expressed by many Muslims. I dont mean Asian on White..I mean Asian on Black. Honor killings and general paternalistic family abuse are also well documented.
Houston...we have a problem...an effin major problem and the PC Liberals just dont know what to do !



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 4:55:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

It is well documented that many firebrand Mullahs in the UK in fact receive large Welfare benefits for both health reasons and the number of children they produce but cannot support. That does not stop them denouncing the West the UK and in some of the more obscure mosques setting up cells with the express intent of murdering innocent people. eg the shoe bomber who was caught before he could blow himself and an aeroplane to bits.
How do you explain that meatcleaver?

Also I have pointed out on other threads the virulent racism openly expressed by many Muslims. I dont mean Asian on White..I mean Asian on Black. Honor killings and general paternalistic family abuse are also well documented.
Houston...we have a problem...an effin major problem and the PC Liberals just dont know what to do !



If people break the law they should face the consequences and I'm not saying muslims are better than anyone else. What I am saying is that they AREN'T WORSE than anyone else and it is rather hypocritical of westerners to suggest they are when those westerners appear to be completely blind to their own behaviour and that of the west in general.



justheather -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 6:18:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You could make a similar argument against Christians, Jews and Budhists, whatever. Examen the history of western Empires. Examen the current American Empire. Though no doubt you probably watch sanitized news and dare I say, avidly consume propaganda that reinforces the vision of your world view.


I think one would be hard-pressed to "make the same claim" against Buddhists.



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 6:41:56 PM)

Er Japan? Cambodia? China? Hell, the whole south east Asia region, there has been enough masacres there throughout history and whether the pperpetrators were nominal Budhists or not is irrelevent. Muslims are being judged on being nominal muslims.



thompsonx -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/25/2006 8:13:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77

They don't police thier own so I see them as the same ilk!!!
I just choose to Not hide My head in the sand!!!



MasterRenagade:
Aren't you the same person who wanted to beat the hell out of anyone who disagreed with your brand of patriotism in another thread?

What did you do to police Pat Robertson when he called for the murder of Hugo Chavez?

thompson



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