RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (Full Version)

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Noah -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 2:37:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You could make a similar argument against Christians, Jews and Budhists, whatever. Examen the history of western Empires. Examen the current American Empire. Though no doubt you probably watch sanitized news and dare I say, avidly consume propaganda that reinforces the vision of your world view.


I think one would be hard-pressed to "make the same claim" against Buddhists.


The case is easily made.

One sturdy set of components for this can be found here: http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.htm but these sources deal primarily with the various traditions of Zen Buddhism which by no means have been the beginning or the end of Buddhist war, murder and corruption.

In the Dalai Lama's homeland, Buddhists were at war with Shamanists for centuries once the Buddhist evangelists came over the mountains from India. The brand of Buddhism the Dalai Lama promotes, quite different from other brands, includes much doctrine and ritual inheirited from the indigenous Shamanistic religions when the push to convert all of Nepal to Buddhism at swordpoints eventually resolved itself into roughly the polyglot, compromise religion we see associated with that famous homophobic man today. Much more recently, when the Dalai Lama was fleeing Nepal through the mountain passes to India, numerous Chinese officials were murdered in cold blood by Buddhists close and loyal to the Dalai Lama, all in the name of the fleeing incarnate Buddha.

Like the Sikhs with their turbans and daggars, the Buddhist Nu people of China go about with turbans on their heads and machetes in their belts. Neither group would have us believe that the hardware represents a tradition of diligent fingernail cleaning. The very fact of the prevalance of Buddhism among the Nu can be seen as poignant in view of the fact that the Tibetans who brought Buddha's truth to the region quickly enslaved the traditionally animist Nu people.

Those more taken with Japanese Buddhism must account for pre-eminent leaders of both the Soto and Renzai sects whose teachings are still revered today, some of whom helped whip up war frenzy among the Japanese in WWII. But this should not be a surprise since the Bushido culture of the Samurai was basically the disciplined practice of the Zen way of killing.

D.T. Suzuki, broadly creditted with popularizing Buddhism in the West, was the student of the great Zen master Shaku Soen who taught that war as well as peace reflected the glory of the Buddha. He is quoted as describing Japan's imperialistic encroachment on the Asian mainland as a "holy war".
Suzuki himself wrote: "... religion should, first of all, seek to preserve the existence of the state," and described fighting in such a war as religious conduct.

The great 20th century master Harada, credited with finding unity between the Soto and Renzai traditions, wrote: "Without plunging into the war arena, one cannot know the Buddha Dharma. It is impermissible to forget war even for an instant," and lest you imagine he was speaking metaphorically, he said elsewhere: "The Japanese are a chosen people whose mission is to control the world. The sword that kills is also the sword that gives life. Comments opposing the war are the foolish opinions of those who can only see one aspect of things and not the whole."

I don't think his full name was George W. Harada but you could be forgiven for thinking so.

Another great Zen master, Seki Seisetsu, decried members of the Communist party as "red devils" and called for their extermination. He said in a radio speech: "Showing the utmost loyalty to the emperor is identical with engaging in the religious practice of Mahayana Buddhism. This is because Mahayana Buddhism is identical with the law of the sovereign."

Or how about this quote from Soto sect Zen master Sawaki Kodo, also in contemporary times: "It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing prevails. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb."

But never mind ancient times or the century which recently ended. The awful civil war between the minority Tamils in Sri Lanka and the majority Buddhist Sinhala community grinds on. Last summer a group of pro-war Buddhist monks there broke up an interfaith anti-war rally (which also featured Buddhists,) the disruption ending in fistfights and chaos.

Just as with Jesus and Mohamed, the Buddha's teachings can be perverted. History shows that they frequently are and with horrifying effect.

We can note that this is true just as well of the teachings of Nietzsche, Darwin, Marx, Engels, John Locke, Thomas Paine and so many others whose ideas stand free and clear of any religion. The a-religious teachings of these great thinkers have been invoked to justify as much killing as any scriptures have in the relatively brief time since their rationalistic masterpieces were written.

Those who point to religion as "the problem" strike me as either willfully blind or pathetically naive.



Religion as madness is a madness springing from irreligiousness.L.W.








thompsonx -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 7:45:19 AM)

Noah:
I could not agree more with your assessment of buddhism as being co-equal with other religions in its ferocity.  I would ,however, consider your last paragraph a bit differently.  The thinkers you mentioned tend to operate from the position of "you have it, I want it, and if you wont share it I will take what I am able to."  This I find to be a more honest approach than those who say "god told me to do it." 

thompson




Mercnbeth -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 8:00:28 AM)

quote:

It's laughable to condemn Islam as violent when people who just happen to be muslim are trapped in a concentration camp take up self destructive action. In many ways what they do is rational because they are not dealing with a rational government that wants a negotiated peace. Israel has undermined peace at every turn because it sees a greater Israel as its objective but I wouldn't expect an American to know that with the quality of objective journalism on this subject in America.

Now lets look at Chritians. An unprovoked invasion of Iraq causing over 600,000 deaths. (its irrelevent who killed them, without the invasion they wouldn't be dead.) A consistent undermining of governments in the middle east for over 60 years with no conscience as to how many muslims are killed. Material and moral support for oppressive murderous regimes with little regard for innocents killed. The west has used poison gas, assassinations, to outright military interference to fullfill their aims in the region.


MC,
I condemn Islam not for its violence, but for its silence.

Your comparisons illustrate best the difference. Israel has a vocal and active, albeit minority that seeks some kind of peace with Islam and the Moslems. "Christians" attacked and invaded Iraq? I assume your position was an argumentative point, but it is a mistake. A cross wasn't the standard waved in front of the armed forces, neither was a Jewish Star, or any other religious icon.

Compare the Muslims situation in Europe and the US with the Christian situation in Lebanon and you'll have a clear illustration of Islamic intent. If it’s not the intent, or if it's only the result of a radical minority; all the more reason to condemn the majorities silence and lack of action to correct their erroneous(?) image.




NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 11:27:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

MC,
I condemn Islam not for its violence, but for its silence.

Your comparisons illustrate best the difference. Israel has a vocal and active, albeit minority that seeks some kind of peace with Islam and the Moslems.

Compare the Muslims situation in Europe and the US with the Christian situation in Lebanon and you'll have a clear illustration of Islamic intent. If it’s not the intent, or if it's only the result of a radical minority; all the more reason to condemn the majorities silence and lack of action to correct their erroneous(?) image.



Some reading would help you to arrive at the true position. Here's a helping hand:

The below is condemnation of the London bombings by a senior Egyptian Muslim.

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/special/london/london5.cfm

This one is a condemnation from senior British Muslims representing all areas of the British Muslim community.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1637522005

You should find this one an interesting read as this is ordinary Palestinians giving their opinion on what happened in New York. If you read all of it you'll see they do not support the killing of civilians. Take particular note of the Palestinian saying "Osama may have faith but he doesn't represent Islam".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,,790494,00.html

A speech from Tony Blair who says "The international coalition remains strong. I pay tribute to Arab and Moslem countries who have supported our action. I thank Saudi Arabia for its forthright condemnation and action" on the first anniversary of the New York bombings.

http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page1636.asp

This is one is a good article. It is from a Palestinian organisation calling for all terrorists to be brought to account.

http://www.aqsa.org.uk/page_detail.aspx?id=192

You're already one step there as in your own words you "don't condemn Islam for violence". The above will provide you with the evidence that Islam is not "silent" (your term). Based on the above, I trust you'll now take the extra step and arrive at the conclusion that the people who adhere to Islam can not be condemned by reasonable and fair minded people. There are extremists attached to Islam as there is Christianity and Judaism. The world is not a battleground for Muslims v Christians or Muslims v Jews, it is a clash of moderates and extremists.

Your Government needs to unite you behind a banner to justify their involvement in Iraq i.e. the so-called "evil Islamofascists". Do yourself a favour and don't fall for what is a tried and tested, centuries old line in Government propaganda.




jEnNy1982 -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 11:47:42 AM)

The is alot of hypocracy in people.
People can only see what they have been conditioned to see and not outside of that.

Jen.




NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 12:06:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

You know, you really should hold up the same standards of 'peace' to the Christians and Jews.  How many deaths have been caused in the name of those 'true' faiths?  How many awful despicable acts do we see the God fearing evangelicals perpetrating in the name of Christ?

Give me a break.

Why do you need to point a finger at a mass of people whom you know nothing about.  This sort of behavior is a greater contributor to our current state of terror than any fringe group.

You want to stop terror?  Start learning.


This is the face of the US that needs to be on show more often. A good looking lady with a tidy mind.




philosophy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 2:32:29 PM)

..i hate to say it Merc, but in this respect i think you have been ill served by US media. NG has posted a bunch of links to Muslims condemning acts of violence.....they were well reported on the BBC. It is a theme in US mainstream media that it seeks to demonise the nominal enemy in this way. It is not Muslims in general that are the enemy...it is muslim extremists....just as in Nothern Ireland it wasn't christian terrorism, but extremist christians terrorising.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 3:04:40 PM)

I can do no more than say....one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Who decides which man is correct ?

I am fairly certain that the people who flew those planes into the World Trade Centre did not consider themselves terrorists.   I do !




Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 5:27:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
dcnovice points out that religions are too multi facetted to summarise simply. This is clearly true but it represents  a somewhat ivory tower intellectual approach.

The people who are enthusiastically murdering one another in Iraq  at this very moment, mostly, are not intellectuals and are responding to the ethos inculcated by their religious experience. This behaviour therefore calls in to question whether Islam is a religion of Peace.


So what you are saying, in essence, is that the people who are not intelligent are representative of the basic tenets of a religion?

I would tend to think that idiots who dont understand either their own or other people's religions are the last people one should use as examples of a particular religious ethos.

If it works for you, go for it.  However I would like to point out that it was either Pat Robertson who made statements about Arabs that (if you switch Arab with United States) Osama Bin Laden made about the United States.
Sinergy


No I am not saying any such thing. The texts of the major religions are highly sophisticated documents that can be studied in an intellectual way. The various and sometimes contradictory messages in those texts can be and are used and disseminated to the less intellectual.



Thank you for the clarification that you are saying that people who think they have an understanding of the fundamental tenets of a particular religion then use their knowledge to prey upon the ignorance of their followers and convince them to do things which are probably contradictory to the central message of the religion.

You and I are in complete agreement.  See this sort of behavior by the leaders of a religion all the time in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Scientology, etc.

I tend to think the problem is in people's drive to exploit other people, which goes hand in hand with other people's deep desire to be exploited, rather than a function of any particular belief system.

quote:



This is especially true of Islam where the Friday prayers will include , so I
understand, a pep talk as to how the devout should behave on any particular current issue.



The Friday pep talk of Islam? 

I would imagine the person who started that tradition off was Osama Bin Madden.

quote:



It was well known in the UK and Europe that firebrand Mullahs were preaching hatred and anti Western aggression , in the UK mosques,to the extent that London was jokingly referred to as Londonistan. Our "clever" secret services thought they had things under control. They were wrong and the London bombings followed.



Intolerance of this nature is so banal and widespread that to focus on people calling London "Londonistan" as proof of the Evil that is Islam is simply obtuse.

You see this sort of intolerance against Islam in fundamentalist Christian groups all over the United States.

Vancouver is coming to be known as Hongcouver by the people who live there due to all the immigrants from China.  Does that mean Canadians are evil because they use derogatory terms for Chinese immigrants?

quote:



What I was saying was that if significant numbers...



What do you consider a significant number of followers of a religion which has perhaps a billion or more followers worldwide?

I would imagine the total number of fanatical Iraqis actively working to kill American soldiers and other Iraqis is far less than 10,000 out of their total population, but I will round upwards just because it makes the math easier.

10,000 out of 1,000,000,000 is a only .001% of the total.

.001% of a total is not a significant number of anything.

Even if you assume the entire population of Iraq (4 million give or take) are fanatical muslim extremists, that is only 4% of the total number of Muslims on the planet.

4% is not even a significant number of anything.

quote:



of devout followers of a religion behave violently then it follows to me that violent messages are somewhere in the religious texts.



But you stated you have not studied the texts in question to know this for a fact.

The term for this is "ignorance" and "assumption" about a subject.  Thank you for admitting you do not know whether these terms exist in these religious texts, and before you go google to find particular lines, I want to remind you that taking individual lines out of context to prove something doesnt work past about the 6th grade writing level.

But getting back to the significant numbers theory.  If 10,000 islamic fundamentalists in a country that has stockpiles of arms all over the place set off bombs and cause general carnage, is this a significant number of followers out of a follower pool of almost a billion?

The United States has, if I remember correctly, 265,000 heavily armed troops in Iraq.  It would make as much sense to say that a significant number of American's are Christians who go around slaughtering people because they elected to be Simian In Chief a man who believes God speaks through him.

I dont believe this is true of America.  I also do not believe it is true of Islam.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy





thompsonx -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/26/2006 6:35:29 PM)

Sinergy:
There are about 30 million people in Iraq not "4 million give or take"  Anyone who thinks the "insurgency" is made up of islamic fundamentalist is ignoring the basic premise ...we invaded their country,  to fuck their women and steal their dope and they are more than a little unhappy about it.  While we may not be enamored with bush & co. we would not take lightly being invaded by another country to remove him.  Side by side every american christian, jew, muslim or athiest would seek to repel the invader.  Anyone who would not is a trator and a coward.  All of this religious rhetoric is so much mind wash for those with single digit IQ's. Lets not forget the source of this thread.  Remember the guy who wanted to kick the shit out of everyone who did not agree with his brand of patriotism.  The reason for all war is money the excuses are all about everything except money because the ones who do the fighting and dying don't get any of the spoils of war...the best you can hope for is a scrap of ribbon for your chest and the worst is a body bag to tote the pieces back home .

thompson




Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/27/2006 5:51:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Sinergy:
There are about 30 million people in Iraq not "4 million give or take"  Anyone who thinks the "insurgency" is made up of islamic fundamentalist is ignoring the basic premise ...we invaded their country,  to fuck their women and steal their dope and they are more than a little unhappy about it.  While we may not be enamored with bush & co. we would not take lightly being invaded by another country to remove him.  Side by side every american christian, jew, muslim or athiest would seek to repel the invader.  Anyone who would not is a trator and a coward.  All of this religious rhetoric is so much mind wash for those with single digit IQ's. Lets not forget the source of this thread.  Remember the guy who wanted to kick the shit out of everyone who did not agree with his brand of patriotism.  The reason for all war is money the excuses are all about everything except money because the ones who do the fighting and dying don't get any of the spoils of war...the best you can hope for is a scrap of ribbon for your chest and the worst is a body bag to tote the pieces back home .

thompson


30 million works.  I had a vague notion of how many lived there from something I read 4 years ago.

In other respects, I am in complete agreement with what you wrote.

I would disagree with your comment that the war is about money.  This war is about "energy" of which money is simply one form.  We have passed the midline of easily accessible oil reserves, and coupled with the United States refusal the last 6 years in funding research to find a new energy source and build the infrastructure, the United States is busily fighting over what is left of the pie.

Spain went through this, Holland went through this, England went through this, and now the United States is going through it.  None of these countries accepted the fact that gold and silver from the new world was not endless, wind and water power was not endless, coal power would become overshadowed by oil, and now the United States is foreseeing the end of the age of oil.

If the United States does not figure out a new energy source to support their economy, China will be the dominant economic power on the planet by 2025.

Although, the Bush administrations antipathy towards funding higher education makes me think there is really no impetus in the United States to be a world power 10 years from now.

Sinergy




thompsonx -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/27/2006 8:03:55 PM)

Sinergy:
Looks to me like you are trying to "pick fly shit out of the pepper" The energy you speak of is oil...oil is sold for money.  The U.S. has plenty of oil but bush & co. want to use up everyone elses so that when ours is all that is left it will be that much more expensive.  As I have mentioned before all war is fought so we can fuck their women and steal their dope...always has been always will be.  These people do not care what nationality you are.  They thrive on nationalism.  Perhaps you might want to read up on the Rothschilds and how they finance both sides in wars....they could not care less who wins.  They get paid no matter what.

thompson




seeksfemslave -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/28/2006 12:56:53 AM)

I do not believe the 2nd attack on Iraq was about oil, I think two major factors were involved....
A "personal" thing by Bush jnr after Saddam had apparently tried to have Bush snr assassinated .
Protection for Israel which in my opinion was the unspoken target of the WMD's if they had existed.

Synergy calls into question my use of the words "significant numbers"  and points out that only a small minority of Muslims are involved in violent acts. This is true, but any radical/revolutionary  movement/activity is ALWAYS carried out by a commited minority.Most of us sit idly by or get swept up in the violence.

A couple of violent things about Islam that I know without Googling anything are.....
The penalty for renouncing Islam is death.
The treatment handed out by Sharia Law to women who are sexually compromised or impoverished thieves presumably of either sex.

Synergy and others I think the time is long past when it is adviseable to try to see the positive side of a dedicated enemy ie fundamentalist Muslims. Whether you support Bush or not, whether you recognise that military aggression financially benefits many and kills  and maims many others we simply cannot sit back and allow nerve gases to be released or dirty bombs to be activated , take an Olympian view and try to be reasonable.

As has been said...Action this day !

Just a further point if the Oil runs out wont that stop China's development also ?




meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/28/2006 2:08:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I do not believe the 2nd attack on Iraq was about oil, I think two major factors were involved....
A "personal" thing by Bush jnr after Saddam had apparently tried to have Bush snr assassinated .
Protection for Israel which in my opinion was the unspoken target of the WMD's if they had existed.



Come on seek, we have all read the Project For The New American Century and another reason, Strausian disciples are or were at the heart of the Bush administration. Israel is the only country that has benefited from the invasion of Iraq and one should always look to who has benefited.

While one shouldn't underestimate the terrorists as events have proved, one shouldn't fall for all the fear propaganda put out by the US and echoed by, the British government. France was trying to draw the west to Islamic terrorism before 9/11 but no one was listening, least of all the US and Britain and the Project For The New American Century was already written by then. Does France think such military action against muslim countries is necessary? Hell no and they were the first concerned about muslims. The muslim threat is being used as a smoke screen for other objectives.




Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/28/2006 6:04:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You could make a similar argument against Christians, Jews and Budhists, whatever. Examen the history of western Empires. Examen the current American Empire. Though no doubt you probably watch sanitized news and dare I say, avidly consume propaganda that reinforces the vision of your world view.


I think one would be hard-pressed to "make the same claim" against Buddhists.


Not really, justheather.  Sri Lanka is about 65% Buddhist, and the controlling majority actively and militarily suppressed the various other sects in their country during their recent civil war.

That is just one example of Buddhists inflicting their righteous anger and hatred on other people.

My point is that I see people volleying off on each other about whose religion is better or more peaceful or right or whatever.  I tend to think most conflicts have nothing to do with religion, per se.  Ireland?  English Protestants had the money and means of control, Irish Catholics were the impoverished majority.  What really ended the years of civil war and conflict in Ireland?  The growth of (by outsourcing from the United States) their computer industry bringing jobs and cash to an otherwised impoverished part of the world.  Sure, there were religious differences, but the general economic differences between the Catholics and the Protestants were the factors germane to their war, as opposed to some ideological argument.  Isreal vs. the Palestineans?  Isreal bombs them and refuses to allow them to work and is simply horrible to them, and the Palestinean Arabs fight back.  Does this have anything to do with religion?  I dont think so.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy




meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/28/2006 6:15:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Not really, justheather.  Sri Lanka is about 65% Buddhist, and the controlling majority actively and militarily suppressed the various other sects in their country during their recent civil war.

That is just one example of Buddhists inflicting their righteous anger and hatred on other people.

My point is that I see people volleying off on each other about whose religion is better or more peaceful or right or whatever.  I tend to think most conflicts have nothing to do with religion, per se.  Ireland?  English Protestants had the money and means of control, Irish Catholics were the impoverished majority.  What really ended the years of civil war and conflict in Ireland?  The growth of (by outsourcing from the United States) their computer industry bringing jobs and cash to an otherwised impoverished part of the world.  Sure, there were religious differences, but the general economic differences between the Catholics and the Protestants were the factors germane to their war, as opposed to some ideological argument.  Isreal vs. the Palestineans?  Isreal bombs them and refuses to allow them to work and is simply horrible to them, and the Palestinean Arabs fight back.  Does this have anything to do with religion?  I dont think so.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy


You've got the end of the Northern Ireland conflict wrong. The IRA couldn't fart in the privacy of their own home without British intelligence knowing and while there was no military victory to be had by the government, the IRA was in an equal bind, it was check mate. SinnFein had got themselves support through the ballot box which anyone could see wouldn't hold up if all they had to offer their new found voters more violence. Also the demographics were moving in their favour. The only thing America did for the conflict in Northern Ireland was pour oil on it by supplying the terrorists funds and Presidents like Reagan saying he couldn't do nothing about it. After 9/11, American politicians found away to stop the flood of money to the IRA.

No, it wasn'ty outsourcing by America that created the growth in Ireland, it was EU money that was thrown at Ireland, much of it British as well as Germn, both being the biggest contributors to the EU budget.




Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/28/2006 6:21:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Sinergy:
Looks to me like you are trying to "pick fly shit out of the pepper" The energy you speak of is oil...oil is sold for money.  The U.S. has plenty of oil but bush & co. want to use up everyone elses so that when ours is all that is left it will be that much more expensive. 



I understand you think that, thompsonx, however, I continue to point out that money is simply a form of energy used to do whatever one wants to do with it.

The point I was making is that historically every dominant world power has been driven to preeminence on the planet by their harnessing of the available energy source.  What resulted in the eventual demise of the Dutch, the Spanish, the English, was the development and exploitation of a new and more powerful energy source.  Yes, these empires all earned money, but they became an empire because of their ability to develop technologies to harness energy.

You make the comment that the United States has plenty of oil.  While this is true to some extent, at our current use of this oil we would be able to strip mine all of Alaska and feed our oil needs for several months.  Additionally, about the first 50% of oil in a particular well is reasonably easy to access.  After that, it becomes increasingly more expensive to extract this oil.  This becomes a problem because the people extracting the oil hit a point where it costs more to extract the oil than they earn by extracting it.  Tar sands in Alaska are a perfect example.  Yes, there is a lot of oil up there.  But it is ridiculously expensive to obtain it and refine it, and you are left with a huge scar on the face of the land after you are done.

The point I was trying to make, which you apparently did not understand, is that we hit peak oil supplies on this planet around 1970 and have been on a downward slope ever since with oil becoming more and more expensive to obtain.

People keep talking about hydrogen as a panacea.  Hydrogen stores energy.  What I mean by this is that you have to crack the hydrogen from the chemicals it is bonded to, which takes an equivalent amount of energy as you will get when you burn it (bond it back together with other chemicals) to get the energy back.  In other words, Hydrogen is more like a battery for energy than a gallon of gasoline; we need some other form of energy to make hydrogen in the first place.

My point was that unless we start thinking 30 years down the road in terms of how we are going to power our economy, we are going to be SOL when somebody else (most likely China) develops and alternate energy source and establishes an infrastructure to use it. 

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy




LordODiscipline -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/28/2006 7:07:19 AM)

Even the world press is condemning the silence of the vast majority of Islam in the wake of the attrocities being committed - both post 9/11 and post Iraq invasion).
 
The list demonstrated are few and far between.
State sponsored papers, papers independent, papers aligned with major relilgious or political figures - all have been silent in relative opposition to the press from the rest of the world; which has struck a chord against such actions and terrorism.
 
Merc is right in this regard... read any foreign paper in regard to this and it is stating the same or ominously silent in this regard.
 
Merc never said it was ALL muslims... just that they are remaining silent (look to the Muslim middle class's reaction to all of this - silent for/in fear of....)
 
And, that is a fact.
 
~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

..i hate to say it Merc, but in this respect i think you have been ill served by US media. NG has posted a bunch of links to Muslims condemning acts of violence.....they were well reported on the BBC. It is a theme in US mainstream media that it seeks to demonise the nominal enemy in this way. It is not Muslims in general that are the enemy...it is muslim extremists....just as in Nothern Ireland it wasn't christian terrorism, but extremist christians terrorising.




Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/28/2006 7:58:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No, it wasn'ty outsourcing by America that created the growth in Ireland, it was EU money that was thrown at Ireland, much of it British as well as Germn, both being the biggest contributors to the EU budget.



Fair enough, I had my money source wrong.

My point is that the so-called religious war between Catholics and Protestants ended around the same time as the economic status of the Irish people changed.

I still think that the economic status caused the war, not religious strife between the participants.

Sinergy





meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/28/2006 8:21:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I still think that the economic status caused the war, not religious strife between the participants.



England and then Britain always saw Ireland and its Catholic sympathies as a back door for its Catholic enemies, first Spain and then France. It was all part of the European power chess game. There was both religion and economics in play. The most celebrated protestant battle which is still celebrated today was the Battle Of The Boyne. This was driven by the Irish aristocracy that had lost all its rights and lands under the conquest of Cromwell and the fear of the protestants that they would lose their possessions. Behind the scenes  Louis XIV trying to extend his power by backing the deposed James II.. 6,000 French fought for James and 16,000 Dutch, Germans and Danes fought for William of Orange. William was reluctant to use his English and Scottish troops because he felt he couldn't trust them fighting (as he saw it) against their fellow countrymen. However, like all these things, facts are ignored and myth becomes the wilful tools of the politically ambitious and the rest is history.

William's victory was widely celebrated on the continent as the battle that prevented the extention of French power and stopping the French hegemony in continental Europe. However, this is long forgotten in the popular mind because it is an inconvenience to the protestant-catholic mutual hate campaigns which are really more about nationality than religion.




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