RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (Full Version)

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Dtesmoac -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 6:02:33 AM)

Anyone who uses words in a book as an excuse to commit evil is just plain evil (or more likely psychotic) where its the Koran, the Bible, or I Don't Like Green Eggs and Ham
 
If you look deeply enough at most interesting books you can read to much into them so the argument that the Koran is or is not evil is ridiculous. 

As for the protesters some of them new what the placards said and all of them were angry and when angry sometimes we do and say things that perhaps are not really what we mean. It is not the people that protest on the streets of London that are the concern it is those that do not bring themselves to the attention of the police that plan longterm to cause maximum chaos and death. The protest just helps to remind the majority of people who are moderate that we all need to be aware more attacks will come. Let them protest. If occasionally we did not see Neo Nazis marching we might forget that some people choose race as the outlet for their mindless evil psychotic tendancies whilst others choose religeon, and some choose a scrap of material on a pole.




NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 11:40:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScienceBoy

Hey, not to piss on your parade here..

But I know plenty of white people, British people (heck, even one or two white citizens of the USA), Canadians, Australians etc. etc.

Who were pleased about 11/9 - I don't number myself amongst them. Loss of life is something that should be avoided at all costs (excepting certain specific circumstances which are a whole other fight [;)]).

You don't have to be a fundamentalist, or religious, or from the middle east, to hate the USA. Great swathes of the western world hate the USA, and wish truely awful things on its leaders and people. It should then be no great suprise that you have loads of religious extremists foaming at the mouth and gunning for you. Equally, it shouldn't then astound them that they have loads of.. er.. I'll stop that thought before I offend more people [;)]

I particularly enjoy this fight (Islam is all about killin', no it isn't, yes it is), and have had the chance to watch it dozens of times in the last few years [:)]

Wasn't it Jesus who said don't throw glass houses?

Anyway. Both sides will be left gaping when Shiva shows up and smites Wisconsin.


From personal experience I don't know anyone who "hates the USA". I know a handful of people who hate US foreign policy and the rest of the Britons I know couldn't give a flying one what happens in or around the US.

To say any British people were pleased about what happened in New York is well wide of the mark and plain wrong. Many Brits see the root of the problem in US and British foreign policy but to say people want others to die is more than stretching it. In fact, the people I know see it as the same old story from centuries past - the Government go about their business and civilians die as a result - I'm sure a significant proportion did not support Bush and US conservatism.

I can't work out if you're being serious here but to say great swathes of the West hate the US is either a joke or you've lost it. Yes, many are opposed to rampant consumerism and globalisation and most associate this with the US (rightly or wrongly) but hate? Definitely not. In fact, if it wasn't for US foreign policy I doubt many Britons (myself included) would take any sort of interest in the place whatsoever.



NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 11:47:32 AM)

Keep it in perspective.

4 convicted British Muslims and 23 suspected in a population of 1.8-2 million.

0.01% of British Muslims are known to engage in terrorist activities. You may have heard about the evil ones from our Government and their friends in the secret services and the media. If you believe this lot then that's your call but the facts are they have recent form for lying to us and botched operations.



slavejali -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 11:58:39 AM)

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

John Lennon ( murdered).



MissyRane -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 12:01:24 PM)

This has to be one of the most beautiful songs ever[:)]
I know people that don't like the US but I don't know anyone who hates them..but I've never been able to understand all this fuss when it comes to religion.



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 1:00:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Keep it in perspective.

If you believe this lot then that's your call but the facts are they have recent form for lying to us and botched operations.


It is not the secret services that have the form but the politicians. The secret services provide the information, the government should use it as an aid to form policy not distort it to get public support for policy.

As for the secret services believing there is probably around 2,000 muslims involved in terrorism, I would have thought that number is quite conservative and not an over estimate. One thing we do understand about terrorism is that the terrorists can't exist without a host population that have the same sympathies as the torrorists even though they don't act upon them. Sharing the same sympathies with the terrorists make the host population blind to who is and who isn't a terrorist. Having spent ten years living in east London, the fact that many muslims are accused of wanting to harm the white population and the country in general, I really don't find far fetched. I find you analysis that there is nothing to worry about far more surprising, especially that terrorists have commited mass murder when they have penetrated the security services defences.



sissifytoserve -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 1:12:02 PM)

quote:

Islam Religion of Peace???


Is Christianity the prefered religion of Hypocrites and phony do-as-I say-not as-I-do fundementalists?

If you call yourself a true Christian..two things you should study.

The ESSENE gospels and the Dead sea scrolls.

King James is the CONVENIENTLY EDITED edition of the Bible.

Fit for kings and tyrants.




NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 1:20:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As for the secret services believing there is probably around 2,000 muslims involved in terrorism, I would have thought that number is quite conservative and not an over estimate. I find you analysis that there is nothing to worry about far more surprising, especially that terrorists have commited mass murder when they have penetrated the security services defences.



Where did I say there's nothing to worry about it? I implied innocent until proven guilty. It's all hearsay, prejudice, climate of fear, botched operations, Islamophobia. In truth, none of us know the potential extent of terrorism because of the aforementioned clouding the issue.

What we do know for sure is 0.01% have been convicted of terrorist activities. As said, all others are innocent until proven guilty.

On your 2,000 muslims involved in terrorism comment (quoted by the authorities) - this quote does not tell the story of what the authorities have deemed terrorist activities to constitute. It encompasses a whole range of activities and even includes those who were involved in campaigning for charity to support Lebanese during the recent bulldozing of Southern Lebanon. Thus, if I were to attach myself to a British charity sending money to Southern Lebanon I would be classified by the authorities as engaging in terrorist activities (the reason being much of the rebuilding is being done through Hezbollah).

Out of interest, why are you so keen to believe the authorities on this particular issue when you don't trust them on others?



sissifytoserve -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 1:24:45 PM)

Is there radical islamists....YES

Ist there radical christians who bo^^b abortion clinics YES.

Politician USE FEARlike a FINE TOOL to get what they want.

Populations instictively shift into mindless GROUP THINK when presented with an "enemy" wether
real or promulgated.



ScienceBoy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 1:35:54 PM)

I will admit to a tiny element of unseriousness in my comment [;)]

I have to say, I know a lot of people who really hate the USA the Monolith, that is to say, the USA as far as you can percieve it from its foreign policy.

I'm not saying all, or even a majority of Brits hate the USA by any stretch - I'm merely pointing out that it isn't simply one group who have taken a hefty dislike to the country. People don't always draw a distinction between the leader, the foreign policy, the population, and the country itself.

Personally, I'm more scared of the USA than filled with hate.

I did meet a charming Icelandic guy who hated the USA because it was full of fat people and brothels though.



NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 1:42:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

Politician USE FEARlike a FINE TOOL to get what they want.

Populations instictively shift into mindless GROUP THINK when presented with an "enemy" wether
real or promulgated.


History supports your argument, sissify. There are countless examples and here we are in the middle of another one.

Genuine advocates of civil liberties afford them to everyone on the planet - one of the key civil liberties (and cornerstone of democracy) being innocent until proven guilty.



NorthernGent -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 2:10:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScienceBoy

I will admit to a tiny element of unseriousness in my comment [;)]

I have to say, I know a lot of people who really hate the USA the Monolith, that is to say, the USA as far as you can percieve it from its foreign policy.

I'm not saying all, or even a majority of Brits hate the USA by any stretch - I'm merely pointing out that it isn't simply one group who have taken a hefty dislike to the country. People don't always draw a distinction between the leader, the foreign policy, the population, and the country itself.

Personally, I'm more scared of the USA than filled with hate.

I did meet a charming Icelandic guy who hated the USA because it was full of fat people and brothels though.


As an individual, you can take the moral highground over right wing Americans and right wing Britons for that matter as they have provided the bedrock of support for this invasion. However, as a nation/society/group of people the British are not in a position to take the moral highground because of the actions of our Government.

If there are sections of Britain viewing the US with disdain it is a mixture of propaganda and stupidity.

Propaganda in the sense that the right-wing sections of our media want us to believe the US is a nation of fundamentalist Christians in order to render resistance to Blair's policies futile (because the Great Satan is hell-bent on destruction).

Stupidity in the sense that have a look at our own country. We are involved in invading others on a pack of lies, we have a monarchy and a non-elected House of Lords who hold power in this country. Stupidity in the sense that while sections of the British media point the finger at the US we have an unelected House of Lords playing a role in determining policy making us the political laughing stock of the Western world.

The US Government is culpable alright and they have a significant section of their society who shouldn't be allowed out of the front doors of their homes but then so do we.



meatcleaver -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 2:21:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


What we do know for sure is 0.01% have been convicted of terrorist activities. As said, all others are innocent until proven guilty.

On your 2,000 muslims involved in terrorism comment (quoted by the authorities) - this quote does not tell the story of what the authorities have deemed terrorist activities to constitute. It encompasses a whole range of activities and even includes those who were involved in campaigning for charity to support Lebanese during the recent bulldozing of Southern Lebanon. Thus, if I were to attach myself to a British charity sending money to Southern Lebanon I would be classified by the authorities as engaging in terrorist activities (the reason being much of the rebuilding is being done through Hezbollah).

Out of interest, why are you so keen to believe the authorities on this particular issue when you don't trust them on others?


Innocent until proven guilty is fine but largely irrelevent since the London bombers were innocent. If the authorities had to wait until a crime was committed beore acting there probably would have been a few more mass murders.

I'm not keen to believe the authorities but having lived in a muslim area in London and having seen all the literature that is circulated and after the London bombing and Islamic terrorist acts here and in Spain, Germany, Italy etc. what the authorities have to say on the matter doesn't sound in the least alarmist but quite a conservative view.



anthrosub -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 3:01:02 PM)

For those of you who are really interested in much of what's been written here, I strongly recommend reading, "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris.  I'm nearly finished with it myself and found it to spell out the issues in a clear and comprehensive manner.  You'd be surprised who makes up the most dangerous group of people in the present (if the goal is to finally be able to resolve the mess we are sinking ever deeper into).  For myself, just about everything he says I've already realized on my own but I did enjoy reading the details as to why things are the way they are.  He doesn't need to convince anyone about what he's saying either...it's all right there for you to see, he's just pointing and saying, "Look."
 
anthrosub



Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 3:21:09 PM)

Hello A/all,

When people quote translations into English of spiritual texts written and rewritten for thousands of years, I always have to wonder if a phrase like:

To him who fighteth
In the cause of Allah,-
Whether he is slain
Or get victory-
Soon shall We give him
A reward of great value.

Maybe this is not a literal call to inflict violence on somebody, but a spiritual call to go forth and proselytize to the unbeliever for their own religious salvation.  A death of their old worldview and a rebirth into the spiritual following of Allah.

It is weird, really, because Fundamentalists in the United States tend to go back to literal interpretations of the Bible to promote their own causes, be that rapture, slaughter of the infidel, whatever.

And then people think that the followers of Islam are doing exactly the same thing with their texts.

There was a fascinating article in Scientific American several years ago about pattern recognition in people.  There is an evolutionary basis for this;  if a hunter on the plains of Africa could recognize migration patterns and fur patterns in a general chaos, they would become a better hunter and their genes for recognizing patterns would be passed on.

Fast forward thousands of years, and you have people insisting that when you listen to songs backwards the people are saying satanic words.

My point is that if you have an entire chaotic data set and you watch at it long enough, you will eventually start to recognize patterns.  If you watch that data set with a set focus on what patterns you want to recognize, you will eventually recognize patterns which you are focussing on trying to recognize.

If you read the Bible, the Koran, the Old Testament, the Tao Te Ching, etc., with the mindset that you want to find the patterns in them which promote you going out and killing the heathen, I would suspect you will find those passages.

If you read these books with the idea in mind that they promote peace and forgiveness of other people, I would imagine you would find those passages as well.

The question then becomes one of what particular view does the observer of the data structure want to take away from their observations?

Just me, etc.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 3:28:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77

I have to be ignorant
 
 
 
Fair enough, I am not sure that is something I would take pride in, but if it works for you, keep it up!
 
I would imagine since you have to be ignorant that you have really not studied what the "act" of terrorism is intended to accomplish.  Similarly, I would tend to doubt that you want any references to books or works which deal with terrorism as a social phenomenon.
 
Just me, etc.
 
Sinergy
 
edited for font confusion
 
 



popeye1250 -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 6:41:00 PM)

No.



dcnovice -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 7:23:15 PM)

quote:

The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/muslimprotest.asp


It bears noting, I think, that the Snopes page includes a clear condemnation by a Muslim representative of the protesters. It strikes me as quite a stretch to say that a few hundred people in London speak for a whole religion of a billion people.



dcnovice -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 7:27:11 PM)

quote:

Do you ever wonder how the Muslims of the Middle Ages viewed The Crusades?  They were probably asking "Christianity, religion of peace??"


In Warriors of God: Richard the Lionheart and Saladin in the Third Crusade by James Reston, Jr., the Muslims come across as far more civilized than the Christian crusaders.

<edited to spell the author's name right!>



dcnovice -> RE: Islam Religion of Peace??? (11/23/2006 7:30:26 PM)

quote:

What distinguishes the Islamist terrorists from many who went before is one major factor - they are far better financed and far more clued up on how to push our buttons than any other group ever has been.


Another important factor, which I do think we need to take seriously, is that technology allows terrorists to be far more lethal than in past centuries. I shudder to imagine what some of the religious warriors of the past would have done with modern arms.



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