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The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:21:25 PM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html

What does the confederate flag mean to you?  A fellow worker had it displayed on his desk, and the supervisor took it down telling him that it  meant "hate".... is that what it means, I never really knew that.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:30:39 PM   
CuriouslyKat


Posts: 118
Joined: 8/21/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Well, as a black person I wince when I see the Confederate flag.  I know that it does not mean hate to everyone but it is still a symbol that I am uncomfortable with. It's like the Swastika, Native Americans use it as symbol, along with other cultures, but it still means hate to many.

Your superviser was covering his ass.....can't blame him. It's better to be safe than sued.

Kat

Edited to add: Everyone else who has posted pretty much said it. It has been co-opted by groups that do hate, the KKK for instance and that reflects on the flag.  

< Message edited by CuriouslyKat -- 9/11/2006 7:45:22 PM >

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:34:17 PM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		How does it mean hate, I really dont understand that.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:38:13 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		For me it just means the South.  I can understand how certain people take it to symbolize a regime of oppression and death however.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:39:06 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Many, if not most, see the stars and bars as the symbol of the southern states and slavery. I personally would not permit it to be on my property.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:39:23 PM   
KenDckey


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Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		To me the flag is a part of our history, those who chose for whatever reason to leave the union and form a new union.   I don't believe that it was about slavery, I believe it was about states rights and economics (slavery being a major portion of that).

Since then I think it has been perverted to mean hate because of people like the KKK, et all.  They use it extensively.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:42:00 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
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Status: offline 		The confederate flag was flown over the troops and homes of those who seceded from the United States to promote the cause of non-consensual slavery, and all the profits and benefits that promoted for those not enslaved.  The brutality and inhumanity of for which that institution is well documented.  Not only were men and women ripped from their families, sent on atrocious oceanic voyages, dehumanized, and used as a pieces of equipment for the betterment of another, they were also often bred, and their offspring sold into that same institution, often times very far from their parents and family, further enforcing the process of dehumanization.

Do you really need to have a history lecture on why the Confederate Union was a machination of hate and the darkest part of human civilization?  The flag is the symbol of the ideal.

< Message edited by puella -- 9/11/2006 7:43:47 PM >

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:44:59 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		The first time I saw a Confederate flag I was at Stone Mountain park near Atlanta Georgia where they commemorate the Civil War heroes and generals by carving their likeness into a granite batholith. It was shocking to see as I had never been to the South, but appropriate there. I do know that it means different things to different people. Some people see it as a symbol of the Spirit of Southerners never being broken, some see it as a symbol of slavery. Knowing what I know today about the Civil War, it was not just about slavery.

My feelings are mixed on the subject. Not every proud Southerner is a racist.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:45:37 PM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Apparentley, I do puella

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:46:51 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
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Status: offline 		Wow.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:48:42 PM   
MstrDouglas


Posts: 75
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with you, Ken, it is a part of history that unfortunatly has been perverted to stand for something it was not meant to.  It was the symbol of a groupe of states that tried to start their own country because of a difference of opinion with the northern states.  Yes slavery was one of those, howere it was not the only one and was in no way the main reason for them to attempt to leave the union.  Hate groups have used and perverted it into a symbol for their own reasons.  I for one think that is too bad, as it is a part of history that is being lost because of it.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:49:45 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

The confederate flag was flown over the troops and homes of those who seceded from the United States to promote the cause of non-consensual slavery, and all the profits and benefits that promoted for those not enslaved.  The brutality and inhumanity of for which that institution is well documented.  Not only were men and women ripped from their families, sent on atrocious oceanic voyages, dehumanized, and used as a pieces of equipment for the betterment of another, they were also often bred, and their offspring sold into that same institution, often times very far from their parents and family, further enforcing the process of dehumanization.

Do you really need to have a history lecture on why the Confederate Union was a machination of hate and the darkest part of human civilization?  The flag is the symbol of the ideal.


This is a super resource for your lecture   it outlines the causes

   the northwest ordinance of 1787 and the US Constitution
   the compromise of 1820 and the early anti-slavery movement
   the mexican war and the wilmot proviso
   the compromise of 1850 and the fugitive slave law
   the kansas nebraska act of 1854
   "bleeding Kansas" and the dred scott decision
   John Brown's Raid
   Taxes and Tarrifs
   Secession

http://www.civilwarhistory.com/articles/articles/causes_of_the_civil_war.htm



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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:52:37 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline 		     It's the Redneck Pride flag.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:55:40 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The first time I saw a Confederate flag I was at Stone Mountain park near Atlanta Georgia where they commemorate the Civil War heroes and generals by carving their likeness into a granite batholith. It was shocking to see as I had never been to the South, but appropriate there. I do know that it means different things to different people. Some people see it as a symbol of the Spirit of Southerners never being broken, some see it as a symbol of slavery. Knowing what I know today about the Civil War, it was not just about slavery.

My feelings are mixed on the subject. Not every proud Southerner is a racist.


If anyone else goes to Stone Mountain stay for the laser light show.   Also take the time to go to Jonesboro to see the 12 oaks plantation house (from gone with the wind) and to Kenesaw Mountain to see the General (the rail engine the Union stole and the south chased).

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:55:51 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		FR:  Really not that the Northerners have very much ground to stand on.  It was only in the few decades before the war that the anti-slavery movement got going, and that was mostly due to prodding, pressure and ridicule from the British.  The North may have officially ended slavery before the South, but it certainly didn't end its segregation, degradation of blacks and foreign immigrants, and oppression of womens rights any significantly earlier.

Slavery would have ended even if the South had won the war (though perhaps decades later), and it certainly had much more to be proud of in its leadership than the North, with the main exceptions of Lincoln and Grant (who was a fabulous drunk leader).

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 7:56:24 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

    It's the Redneck Pride flag.


And the American flag? It is a pride thing for you too is it not? You posted a thread about Old Glory, so I am assuming you take pride in it?

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:01:08 PM   
maestro365


Posts: 4
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline 		The only appropriate venue for the Confederate flag (stars & bars or otherwise) is in an educational or historic setting - such as a museum. To those of you who "don't get it", I'm afraid there is no intellectual lecture which will clue you in to the truely visceral connotations represented in this symbol. I would even posit that the 'Six Flags' so-called theme parks, originally designed with at least a modicum of cultural presentation, have so thoroughly abandoned this concept (in favor of roller coasters everywhere all the time) that they have forfeited the right to display these flags. And just for the record - I'm white & I'm southern.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:05:16 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Uh huh....

Saying that slavery was not the major issue of the Civil War is like saying 9/11 was not the major reason the government used to invade Iraq.  Were there other issues?  Sure... Was slavery the seminal issue of American society  during the ante bellum (and well into the reconstruction and far beyond) period?  Absolutely.  You can try to justify it however you need to kids, but not many will buy it.  You don't see too many good ol' boys hanging the traditional American flag over the bodies of lynching victims, or in the marches to promote segregation, or on the websites of so many racist groups and organizations for no reason (including the Klan, which of course has its roots in the Confederacy). 

Look, to my shame,the ancestry of my family has the blemish one of the largest breeding farms in the South: you are not going to convince me of some altruistic meaning behind the cessation of the southern states.  There might be a few others who are willing to buy your line, however, so onwards and upwards!

< Message edited by puella -- 9/11/2006 8:07:05 PM >

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:12:12 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Thank god my family was way too poor to even think of owning other people, eh?

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:12:32 PM   
carolsea


Posts: 185
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

To me the flag is a part of our history, those who chose for whatever reason to leave the union and form a new union.   I don't believe that it was about slavery, I believe it was about states rights and economics (slavery being a major portion of that).

Since then I think it has been perverted to mean hate because of people like the KKK, et all.  They use it extensively.


You got it.  It was about states rights and the south wanted to stay separate from the union.  It just happened that the slavery issue was going on at the same time.  But let's not even talk about Abraham Lincoln lol.

Not many will really look at the truth, Ken Dckey, and thank you for stating it simply!

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