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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:16:05 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

   It's the Redneck Pride flag.


And the American flag? It is a pride thing for you too is it not? You posted a thread about Old Glory, so I am assuming you take pride in it?



     First, I think you took my 'Redneck Pride' comment differently than I intended it.  I like and appreciate rednecks.  I HAVE mowed my yard and found a car. 

      As to the US Flag, I do believe it is a powerful symbol of our Nation and the Constitution it is built on.  I don't think it should be used as an 'accessory.'  The Constitution?  I once took an oath to defend it with my life but it is impractical to fly from the porch of my house.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:18:49 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich
    First, I think you took my 'Redneck Pride' comment differently than I intended it.  I like and appreciate rednecks.  I HAVE mowed my yard and found a car.  

    


LOL Rich.



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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:21:30 PM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		I agree the confederate flag is a huge part of American history.

but thats all it is, it is a relic, not something to be flown as in still support of it's ideals, whatever one may think about it the flag is the symbol for enemies of the union, last I checked what did you think the "U" stood for? The symbols of the confederacy do have a place, in reenactments, in mueseums, and to teach about our past, nowhere else, flying it and taking pride in it is the same as flying an enemies flag as far as i'm concerned.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:21:59 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carolsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

To me the flag is a part of our history, those who chose for whatever reason to leave the union and form a new union.   I don't believe that it was about slavery, I believe it was about states rights and economics (slavery being a major portion of that).

Since then I think it has been perverted to mean hate because of people like the KKK, et all.  They use it extensively.


You got it.  It was about states rights and the south wanted to stay separate from the union.  It just happened that the slavery issue was going on at the same time.  But let's not even talk about Abraham Lincoln lol.

Not many will really look at the truth, Ken Dckey, and thank you for stating it simply!


I quote the first Republican President so everyone can understand how the civil war was not fought for slaves

quote:

If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.  ~Abraham Lincoln


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(in reply to carolsea)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:26:33 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Are some of you aware that the original cause of the war between the states was not slavery? On the eve of the First Battle of Bull run a deputation of the what became Confederate States met with Lincon and offered to abolish slavery. All they wanted was to suceed from the money grabbing North. Now for the life of me I can't remember the book title and author, but this was wriotten in detain in a book written by Lincon's secretary at then time.. This little titbit stays with me because in the 20 years when I was officially residing in Western Australia there was a vote taken state wide about WA suceedinbg friom the rest of Auatralia because all the money was in WA and all the Power in the East Coast. the sucession list by less than 1% each time. When asked how WA would defend itself if the Federal Government threatened military action, the then WA Premier stated that is the US refused to defend WA, the US Military intelligence and Submarine bases in WA (Vital for the cold war for a presence in the Indian Ocean) would be offered to the USSR. That it would never have happened but it does show how serious WA was about breaking out of the financial and politicals which has made and still keeps WA  a second class area in Australia.

My personal view of the Stars and Bars? I have members of the Irish side of my family leave Australia to fight for the South. Lost track of names when my father died, but I know a couple served in the glorious 13th Georgia Cav and apparently in some round about way Brig Gen Jeb Stuart is related.. I'm in the long slow process of tracking down all the connections to my family..... The Stars and Bars holds a place of honour in my home as a battle flag and not the deeds of the KKK and other such trash.... You play Dixie and I'll stand and salute. Play the Battle Hymn of The Republic and I'll also stand and salute.... I honour the boys, both Blue and Grey who fought for what they believed and died for their beliefs.......


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(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:29:48 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Historical Fact people forget or never learned #1: The "Stars and bars and the Battle Flag of the Confederacy were two distintly different flags. The "Stars and Bars was red and white bars and a field of blue with a star for each succedding state.
(two red bars seperated by a white bar with a blue field in the upper left) The Battleflag of the confederacy was the flag confederate troops carried into battle and thus was for a while used to honor their bravery in battle. The battleflag didnt fly over slavery it flew over the troops, for some a small distinction.

Problem is those who would use it as a symbol for the troops bravery failed to safeguard it's meaning and it was coopted by various white supremicist groups. The KKK, and neo nazi groups have been using it for their own purposes for so long that the previous meaning has been all but lost and the meaning most people place on it is the connotation of hate and racisim.

I am saddened that it was not safeguarded from those nutjobs but it is beyond saving now.

puella slavery was behind many of the issues of the war but to call it a major issue denies the historic record that shows thet recruiting for the north and south didn't start to use slavery as an issue until late in the war. It also flies in the face of the facty that many politicians didn't care one way or the other about slavery itself but rather about the economics of slavery. That applied both north and south. Many northern factory workers and owners alike only protested against slavery when the raw materials gained from it were shipped to europe rather than to their own northern factories.
When the money from slavery flowed into their pockets it was OK to let them have slaves in the south, when that money went elsewhere, then slavery was an abomination. To attempt to put the continuation of slavery only on the southern states is inaccurate and unfair.

Economics as opposed to actual slavery itself was the cause, and this is supported by the historic record.


(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:39:41 PM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The first time I saw a Confederate flag I was at Stone Mountain park near Atlanta Georgia where they commemorate the Civil War heroes and generals by carving their likeness into a granite batholith. It was shocking to see as I had never been to the South, but appropriate there. I do know that it means different things to different people. Some people see it as a symbol of the Spirit of Southerners never being broken, some see it as a symbol of slavery. Knowing what I know today about the Civil War, it was not just about slavery.

My feelings are mixed on the subject. Not every proud Southerner is a racist.


If anyone else goes to Stone Mountain stay for the laser light show.   Also take the time to go to Jonesboro to see the 12 oaks plantation house (from gone with the wind) and to Kenesaw Mountain to see the General (the rail engine the Union stole and the south chased).


I know that they were trying to do away with the Confederate Flag as Georgia's state flag several years ago.  I don't remember if it was successful.  Anyone care to enlighten me?

Whatever it originally symbolized, it has nonetheless been perverted by hate groups and I would be happy if I never saw it again.

BTW, I used to live in Kennesaw and never made it to Kennesaw Mountain, but the laser show at Stone Mountain is awesome.

< Message edited by nefertari -- 9/11/2006 8:40:40 PM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:43:31 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Yes the Battle Flag of the Confederacy has been removed from the Georgia flag it now much more resembles the Stars and Bars that actually was the government flag that flew over slavery. Isn't that ironic thatso many states that once had the battleflag now has something that resembles what the protesters wrongly called the flag they protested.


(in reply to nefertari)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 8:45:53 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Didn't we have a long and divisive thread about the confederate flag not that long ago?  It also got into the question of whether the Civil War was fought over slavery.

Edited to add: Cuddleheart, your own link ends with this sentence:

quote:

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.


That right there should be enough to explain why it's inappropriate to hang the Stars and Bars at your workplace.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/11/2006 8:47:21 PM >

(in reply to cuddleheart50)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 9:00:40 PM   
freyjasdottir


Posts: 253
Joined: 8/29/2006
From: PA
Status: offline 		Actually the Southern Poverty Law Center lists so many items as hate crimes that it is a joke, now numbers are hate crimes, any group in the world can claim something demeans them or might demean them and this group determines it is a symbol of hate.  Actually look at what they show, pages and pages of items that are not thought of most of the time or are religious items for various groups.  Everything is perception, and too many are quick to perceive things as hateful.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 9:08:14 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Like all times of conflict, the American Civil War was a time of great confusion. There were many people that fought the war, for many different reasons. There were Southern Generals that were against slavery, and Northern Generals that actually owned slaves. You had an Emancipation Procllmation that only freed slaves in states controlled by the Confederacy, while leaving slavery intact in Union States such as Delaware, Maryland and Missouri. West Virginia, established as a Unionist split-off from Virgina, was not covered by the Proclamation, while Virginia was. Occupied Florida, was not covered by the Proclamation.
 
While I would never wear one, I don't feel that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of hate. Only hate, is a symbol of hate.

(in reply to carolsea)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 9:10:58 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The first time I saw a Confederate flag I was at Stone Mountain park near Atlanta Georgia where they commemorate the Civil War heroes and generals by carving their likeness into a granite batholith. It was shocking to see as I had never been to the South, but appropriate there. I do know that it means different things to different people. Some people see it as a symbol of the Spirit of Southerners never being broken, some see it as a symbol of slavery. Knowing what I know today about the Civil War, it was not just about slavery.

My feelings are mixed on the subject. Not every proud Southerner is a racist.


If anyone else goes to Stone Mountain stay for the laser light show.   Also take the time to go to Jonesboro to see the 12 oaks plantation house (from gone with the wind) and to Kenesaw Mountain to see the General (the rail engine the Union stole and the south chased).


I know that they were trying to do away with the Confederate Flag as Georgia's state flag several years ago.  I don't remember if it was successful.  Anyone care to enlighten me?

Whatever it originally symbolized, it has nonetheless been perverted by hate groups and I would be happy if I never saw it again.

BTW, I used to live in Kennesaw and never made it to Kennesaw Mountain, but the laser show at Stone Mountain is awesome.


I do not think I saw another Confederate flag when I was there a year ago this month. Consider that it was flown in a part of the park that has a walk devoted to Confederate heroes. I do not think it is offensive in that context because it was a memorial to those who fought in that war. It is a part of Southern history after all.

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(in reply to nefertari)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 9:14:10 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		I don’t wince every time I see the Confederate flag (in fact, from a strictly aesthetic point of view, I think it is quite pretty). I don’t equate it with the Nazi Swastika. But I am not Black. If I was I would probably feel different. That aside, it should not be flying over any government building. It is true that it was never an official flag of the Confederacy, that it never flew over any plantation or slave ship (unlike the Stars and Stipes, which did). It is also true that it represents a defunct nation whose number one reason for existence was to protect some peoples right to deny all rights to another people. More importantly it was put over many government buildings in the sixties as an act of defiance against the Civil Rights movement and has been used as a symbol for hate groups including America’s oldest domestic terrorist organization – the Klu Klux Klan.

There is a really excellent documentary (made by the History channel or A&E or one of them thinking person’s channels) called, The Unfinished Civil War that deals with this topic quite well. Perhaps it is available from Amazon or the like. It is clear that many – not all, but many – on the pro Confederate flag side are racists. I did wince when one such jerk declared that Blacks should get on their knees and thank Whites for how well we’ve treated them. I don’t often feel ashamed over being White, but I did when I heard that jerk. Anyway, I recommend the documentary to anyone interested in this topic.

As for private individuals flying the flag? If it is your home, your property – hey, it’s a free country (or so they tell me). At the work place is a different story. I believe that a company has the right to set standards for it’s employees dress and work space because such things affect the public image of the company as well as employees ability to get along with each other. That supervisor was within his rights to demand that the Confederate flag be removed. Religious symbols are a different matter but there is no way in hell I’m going to get into that (at least not right now).

One last thing. I am glad that the North won the Civil War and that slavery was ended (at least on paper) and that the Union was preserved. However, from a strictly legal point of view, it can be argued that the North was waging an illegal war against the South. States are, in theory, sovereign. They willingly joined the Union on their own accord and, in theory, should have had the right to withdraw from the Union.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 9:39:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Whether something is a hate crime isn't determined by what the victim feels, but by what the criminal intended.  Plenty of white-supremacist groups use the Stars and Bars as their symbol, and there's not much doubt about their intent.  Are you denying that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: freyjasdottir

Actually the Southern Poverty Law Center lists so many items as hate crimes that it is a joke, now numbers are hate crimes, any group in the world can claim something demeans them or might demean them and this group determines it is a symbol of hate.  Actually look at what they show, pages and pages of items that are not thought of most of the time or are religious items for various groups.  Everything is perception, and too many are quick to perceive things as hateful.

(in reply to freyjasdottir)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/11/2006 9:40:30 PM   
pantyslave101


Posts: 13
Joined: 12/4/2005
Status: offline 		Puella, perhaps you could tell me , if slavery was a big part of the reason that the south fought the north, then why did Lincoln not give the emansapation proclamation speech at the battle of bull run, insted of waiting more than 3 years ?
Could it be that the north used that issue to punnish the south even more?  Where were you educated? did they not teach history there?

(in reply to carolsea)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 3:13:32 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		LaM - not sure how it is in the US, but in the UK if the victim feels that the harassment, abuse or attack was motivated by the victim being of another race, culture, religion, sexuality, ability, gender etc - then it is a hate crime, regardless of what the perpetrator might say was the intent.

The Confederate flag will always be popular, whatever is done; for one thing its pretty, but its used over here a lot too, mainly it seems as a token of non conformance to society in a similar way that the South no longer wanted to conform to the Union. I've seen all sorts using it, for all sorts of reasons - bikers, travellers, kids on the street etc. Its sewn to clothing, worn as a bandana, and yes even sometimes flown. It means different things to different people I guess.

In a similar way, and since its been mentioned, the sunwheel (swastika) is also banned in polite society and for good reason since the nazis abused and perverted it and it has evil association with them. But for Hindus in the UK, and for me as a follower of Asatru, the same symbol is holy. I dont wear it or display it anywhere solely out of concern for those who find its evil associations too much to bear, and I positively hate the nazis for what they did with it, but that doesnt mean that the sum total of the sunwheel over thousands of years is now evil. It means different things to different people.

The real and only problem in both cases is that some unbalanced idiots attach redundant meanings to both, for their own ends. But then, that would also be the case had the South used a rainbow flag or the nazis used a star.
E

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 3:24:36 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 4:01:18 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		When i see the Confederate flag ti me it simply indicates a Southerner. I was born in the South, my family for the most part are Southerners. It does not represent hate or slavery to me, although there are those who would use it as such a symbol.
 
When i see the Confederate flag or i hear Dixie i still get choked up, it represents home and family, grits and quilts, folks who will offer you a cup of coffee and a slice of pecan pie, barefoot children playing in the grass and fried chicken on the mountainside with folks who say ya'll come back now, ya' hear and really mean it.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 5:50:47 AM   
peterK50


Posts: 433
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline 		I live in Kentucky & see the Confederate flag regularly on vehicles, never a Mercedes, Jaguar or Lexus, but that's another issue. Many years ago I asked a trucker who had a HUGE Confederate flag on the side of his truck, "Hey Man, what's up with that, the wars been over for a long time?." His reply made sense to me, "It's about freedom, the Confederate states were the ultimate group that told the U.S. Government you aren't going to push us around & took up arms to protect their rights." "I'm a trucker, I believe in freedon just like they do & if this government wants to oppress me I'll react like they did." Many people, especially people of color see it as a racist symbol. You wouln't fly a Nazi flag & say "I admired their organizational skills", so It's a sensativity issue.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 5:56:03 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		It seems to me a case of the victors writing the history. From what I have read, slavery was not an issue in the war and have some people have noted, the north had slavery too and conditions in the northern industrial towns after the war were just as bad for blacks as slavery was. But the trucker is right, if the US is about freedom, a state should have the freedom to secede from the Union, it appears that has never been the case.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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