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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 6:04:12 AM

peterK50

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I read an article a while back that argued strongly that if the Confederate states had pressed their right to leave the union in the courts, given the make-up & philosophy of the Supreme Cout at the time, they very likely would have won.

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 6:09:15 AM

pinkee

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all i can add is i wouldn't display anything in my home, workplace or yard that i KNEW would make at least some people uncomfortable, or could be misinterpreted. i have no doubt many (white) Southerners feel a great deal of historical pride and that's all the flag means to them, but it's hard to imagine a Black Southerner feeling that way, or many other people. It's not as bad as the burning cross, but it does have meaning to some people which is offensive. pinkee

< Message edited by pinkee -- 9/12/2006 6:10:00 AM >

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Post #: 42

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 7:06:44 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peterK50

I read an article a while back that argued strongly that if the Confederate states had pressed their right to leave the union in the courts, given the make-up & philosophy of the Supreme Cout at the time, they very likely would have won.

This is interesting. It's brings up one of those 'what if?' moments. How different history would be if there were three english speaking States in North America, the Confedracy, the Union and Canada.

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Post #: 43

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 7:17:19 AM

philosophy

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some years ago, racist groups in the UK co-opted the Union Flag as their symbol. For about a decade no-one really stepped in to say stop it. Finally, in the last few years there has been a movement to reclaim our national symbol from the racists.
Perhaps there needs to be a similar campaign in the States, to reclaim the Confederate flag from the racists and return it to the people.

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Post #: 44

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 7:41:15 AM

TahoeSadist

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The Confederate flag is an important part of the US history. I do think that it's a shame that it has been comandeered by fringe nutcases like the KKK and such. Seeing one doesn't have much effect on me, though because of the way it is used today, I may be curious depending on location: i.e. if it's outside of the South, I wonder if it's a connection to ones's ancestral home, a sign of group affiliation, or a political statement.

As to slavery being *the* cause of the US Civil War aka The War Between the States, aka The War of Northern Aggression, it's not true. Something that gets lost in discussions like this is that you can't take the North and South as homogenous, united people. Then, as now, there were differing factions that made up the whole.

Yes, there were men who took up arms to ensure that they would be able to keep slaves.

Yes, there were men who took up arms to help end the "peculiar institution".

Yes, there were men who felt that the industrialized North was harming the Southern economy with tarriff and other types of financial policy.

Yes, there were men who felt the Southern states did not have a right to secede, and thus were in rebellion.

Yes, there were men who felt that the States made the Union, and a State can leave the Union.

Yes, there were men on both sides who went to war with their neighbors and friends, in locally raised units to defend the Union or to defend their homes, or both.

That period of history is very interesting to me because of all the different things that occured, prior to, during, and after the war. It's worth noting that Maryland, Missouri, Delaware, West Virginia, and Kentucky were all slave states that remained in the Union. The war itself would have had a completely different look, not to mention possibly a different outcome had all the slave states seceded (which logic says that if it was purely a war about slavery, should have happened). Another question that gets forgotten is: what about slave-owning free blacks? It seems that most of this particular group lived in the new Orleans area, and while small in number, still make for an interesting question. It seems that these people supported the Confederacy, so are their decendants allowed to use the Flag?

There is much more that fascinates me about the era (one can even debate whether it can be technically called a "civil war" instead of a rebellion) but the place of the Confederate Flag isn't one of the issues to me.

Eric

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 7:46:52 AM

freyjasdottir

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Lordandmaster,

No I am not but I am implying that there may be another place that would be a better choice in deciding what is hateful and what is not. Also, this organization does go by how the a person feels (not always a victim) and not necessarily how it was intended. The organization paints with very wide brush strokes.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 46

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 7:56:35 AM

Lordandmaster

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Well, here's the text of the Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 1999:

http://www.govtrack.us/data/us/bills.text/106/h/h77.pdf

You can see how "hate crime" is defined: "the incidence of violence motivated by the actual or perceived race, color, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender, or disability of the victim."

What matters is the motivation, not whatever the victim might happen to feel. Victims don't determine what motivated the criminal; that's for the courts to decide.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

LaM - not sure how it is in the US, but in the UK if the victim feels that the harassment, abuse or attack was motivated by the victim being of another race, culture, religion, sexuality, ability, gender etc - then it is a hate crime, regardless of what the perpetrator might say was the intent.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/12/2006 7:57:32 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 47

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 8:09:24 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

LaM - not sure how it is in the US, but in the UK if the victim feels that the harassment, abuse or attack was motivated by the victim being of another race, culture, religion, sexuality, ability, gender etc - then it is a hate crime, regardless of what the perpetrator might say was the intent.

I'm not sure you are right here. I think the victim's brief has to prove intent in court. Though Blair has introduced some damn bad legislation which has had lawyers complaining many of his discrimination laws are unworkable. I would imagine if a person is found guilty on what a victim felt was a crime they would be able to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights which is based on Roman law. Then the victim would have to prove intent. I would imagine the British law is similar to the American law LAM cites.

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Post #: 48

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 8:16:18 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

LaM - not sure how it is in the US, but in the UK if the victim feels that the harassment, abuse or attack was motivated by the victim being of another race, culture, religion, sexuality, ability, gender etc - then it is a hate crime, regardless of what the perpetrator might say was the intent.

I'm not sure you are right here. I think the victim's brief has to prove intent in court. Though Blair has introduced some damn bad legislation which has had lawyers complaining many of his discrimination laws are unworkable. I would imagine if a person is found guilty on what a victim felt was a crime they would be able to take their case to the European Court of Human Rights which is based on Roman law. Then the victim would have to prove intent. I would imagine the British law is similar to the American law LAM cites.

We have, I belive 11 of them, states that still use English Common Law. there was a recent case settled in the Colorado Supreme Court where English Commoon Law was affirmed. It was on yahoo about some underage teen marriage to some older guy without consent.

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Post #: 49

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 8:26:22 AM

meatcleaver

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English common law and this has brought Britain into conflict with the European Court on a few occasions. It is one of the cultural problems England has with the EU. Scotland has Roman law I believe and uses investigating magistrates but I will stand being corrected on that. It's a fascinating subject for debate but I guess that would be another thread.

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Post #: 50

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 9:58:44 AM

KenDckey

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I don't know enough about either English Common Law or Roman Law to debate them. Would if I could though LOL

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Post #: 51

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 10:00:44 AM

cuddleheart50

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http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 10:04:32 AM

LadyEllen

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Meat - I work on the Independent Advisory Groups on hate crime (amongst other things) with the local police. Honestly - if the victim perceives it to be hate crime, (or even if a third party perceives it as so and is the complainant), then its treated as hate crime, regardless of the perpetrator claiming otherwise.
E

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Post #: 53

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 10:08:24 AM

TreSwank

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When I was still living in the Carolinas (before running off to join the service) I got a big, bright tattoo of a confederate flag on my forearm. I thought that it was the absolute SHEEZY when I was eighteen..........now I have to cover it up with long-sleeves at quite a few bars and clubs.

Some Southerners might tell you that the confederate flag has nothing to do with hate, and then prattle on about tariffs and industrial/agrarian disparities being the real impetus behind the civil war (and they're correct, to a certain extent)............but if you're black and driving past a neighborhood with two or three "stars and bars" on display for everybody to see, I would NOT recommend stopping to ask for directions.

In my ignorant and wasted youth, I got that tattoo for the SOLE PURPOSE of pissing off black folks, because I thought that most African American men were predatory, loud, obnoxious, ignorant, and overall dysgenic stains in the breeding pool.............but I kinda-sorta learned not to make too many blanket generalizations as I got older. Now, I live with a black room-mate who is my best friend. Go figure!! I still feel uncomfortable in certain bars and clubs that are packed full of black people, but it's not the intense, freakin' borderline-psychotic hatred for minorities that I harbored in my teen years. I mean, I might say things these days that could be construed as hostile towards blacks, but I can usually understand the underlying reasons behind that animosity on hindsight.

< Message edited by TreSwank -- 9/12/2006 10:32:50 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 11:46:33 AM

SirKenin

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A confederate flag to Me means a piece of nylon with a symbol on it. Often when I think about it I think about it draped across the back window of a beat up pick up truck with a gun rack and a couple of rifles. 'Scuse Me.. I got the Hick ups..

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RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 11:49:08 AM

KatyLied

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The Confederate Flag is like a collar - it's a symbol and it means different things to different people.

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Post #: 56

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 11:53:37 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Meat - I work on the Independent Advisory Groups on hate crime (amongst other things) with the local police. Honestly - if the victim perceives it to be hate crime, (or even if a third party perceives it as so and is the complainant), then its treated as hate crime, regardless of the perpetrator claiming otherwise.
E

The police might treat it as such but surely in court, intent has to be proved?

I'm not saying I'm right, I really don't know, it's been a few years since I lived in the UK but I'm sure if someone was convicted of a crime that was perceived as a crime rather than proved a crime, they would find redress in the European Court of Human Rights. Perception is hardly safe grounds for a conviction.

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Post #: 57

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 3:41:43 PM

Lordandmaster

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Exactly what I was going to ask. There's probably good reason for the police to handle alleged hate crimes in this way, but in order to PROVE a hate crime, you've got to have more than the victim's say-so.

Anyway, this is a moot point (though an interesting one), because the kind of hate groups I'm talking about don't make any bones about their intentions. It's not, shall we say, shrouded in mystery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Meat - I work on the Independent Advisory Groups on hate crime (amongst other things) with the local police. Honestly - if the victim perceives it to be hate crime, (or even if a third party perceives it as so and is the complainant), then its treated as hate crime, regardless of the perpetrator claiming otherwise.

The police might treat it as such but surely in court, intent has to be proved?

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 58

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/12/2006 11:26:38 PM

NastyDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

all i can add is i wouldn't display anything in my home, workplace or yard that i KNEW would make at least some people uncomfortable, or could be misinterpreted...

How do you know, or cover all the bases and try to protect the offense threshold of all or some people? What you perceive as innocent, or a part of historical heritage is somebody else's hate.

The numbers 666 are dreaded by many and considered the mark of the beast, yet there are street addresses, phone numbers, phone exchange prefixes and many other latent applications of objects, numbers, symbols which could upset someone's rowboat.

In that respect, any instances of life on the plantation portrayed visually could be offensive to some despite them not being there to experience it. One could easily argue such offense to actually be constituted as discriminatory, bias, superstition, or just plain old heebie-jeebies.

Social outcasts often adapt symbols to their own uses, the number 13, the skull and crossbones pirate flag symbol are used among outlaw bikers... egads, the pirate symbol is also used to adorn military machinery!

This subject tends to parallel another thread about religion, in that it's not the symbol that's bad... it's the people who use the symbol for their own bad agendas.

Why hate the symbol when the problem was the people who used it for their agenda? White people were involved in slavery... so should all black people hate all white people and ban them from their sight?

It's always better to move forward....

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Post #: 59

RE: The Confederate Flag - 9/13/2006 12:00:39 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Uh huh....

Saying that slavery was not the major issue of the Civil War is like saying 9/11 was not the major reason the government used to invade Iraq. Were there other issues? Sure... Was slavery the seminal issue of American society during the ante bellum (and well into the reconstruction and far beyond) period? Absolutely. You can try to justify it however you need to kids, but not many will buy it. You don't see too many good ol' boys hanging the traditional American flag over the bodies of lynching victims, or in the marches to promote segregation, or on the websites of so many racist groups and organizations for no reason (including the Klan, which of course has its roots in the Confederacy).

Look, to my shame,the ancestry of my family has the blemish one of the largest breeding farms in the South: you are not going to convince me of some altruistic meaning behind the cessation of the southern states. There might be a few others who are willing to buy your line, however, so onwards and upwards!

Puella, Preservation of the Union was the major issue of the Civil War.

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 60

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